Debate btw quranist and hadithist
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As I marwan is not experience in debating like adnan. We should not blame him. The guy adnan has been doing it for long
adnan himself need to understand the difference between history and hadith..
it doesnt matter how long hes been doing this..
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Oh no, the debate here is with Adnan Rashid who is extremely dishonest, provocative, annoying and disrespectful. I heard some of his discussions with Christians and he has a nasty habit of resorting to personal attacks once he can't refute their arguments.
If you listen to what he says in this video carefully, you will see that all his criticism are more suited for his beliefs in hadiths rather then the quran... e.g. he asks in 320 ''What's the evidence that Muhammad taught this? Maybe someone made it up??'' rotfl Yeah that's exactly what we as quranists criticise hadiths for! rotfl And in 421 he said ''Someone stated something to Muhammad why should I believe it why???'' rotfl rotfl But funny enough he doesn't ask himself why he believe in someone-stating-something-to-muhammad in hadiths rotfl
But Adnan's approach was to try to trap the quranists into 'admitting' that the ''same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''.
Adnan is hopeless to have a discussion with...
Peace
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thats why i said he dnt even have a grip on history and hadith..
according to history "copies of quran were in circulation" soon after death of prophet
according to history " copies of hadith were come in circulation" after 200 years of prophet deathbut as per quran muhammad write the master copy by his own hand ...
what the chains were doing for 200 years .. adnan is the dumbest debater i have ever encounter ..
and i m more angry on this person who represent himself as quranist or whatever , he dnt even have a grip of debate..
years ago i watch a video in which it was fixed and they ask the same questions and pretender quranist did not answer it due to a reason.. i understand it was fixed ...
or other way round the people may b have 300 years age then we can think logically they are same people who bring the quran.. rotfl rotfl
maha look at the adnan he drinks a lot in the debate ... sun
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A debate btw quranist and hadithist in speakers corner London.
Would any want to counter the hadithist. I think the quranist was not more knowledgeable in Quran itself.
https//youtu.be/26FB8EHeFMc3119 and be moderate in pace yours and lower from voice yours indeed harshest the voices surely voice l-amri/the donkeys (i.e. those ranting out load mindlessly)
unlike hearsay collections which did not exist until after 100+ years after revelation;
page one of oldest manuscripts MA VI 165 probability 95.4% between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165https//s23.postimg.org/ctao1qle3/ch31v16-23.jpg
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Uncle Adnan "How was the Quran preserved"?
I am glad once again he asked this question. You will never find the answer anywhere in the Quran. rotfl
That's because it came to us 250 years after the Book was revealed. Checkmate!
Too bad, you QURANISTS will never know about the holy goat who ate the stoning verse....and <a href="https//ancientmodernislam.blogspot.com/2016/10/some-lies-from-hadith-books.html">the rest nowhere to be found in the Quran</a>. Hence, any argument of yours about how the Book was preserved is invalid.
Salaam everyone, I haven't been active for many years, just decided to come back. Anyway, about the question posed to the brother in the video, Why does he have to prove how the Quran was preserved? I find that to be a strange question because, you either believe in the Quran based on the writing you find within the Quran or you reject it. If your faith depends on the fact that the hadeeth proves to you that this is a historically preserved document, then we have many other historically preserved documents as well. Will these same people believe in Ghulam Mirza as a prophet because his sayings are also preserved (Actually much more preserved than the Prophet Muhammed PBUH). This whole question makes no sense to me.
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Salaam everyone, I haven't been active for many years, just decided to come back. Anyway, about the question posed to the brother in the video, Why does he have to prove how the Quran was preserved? I find that to be a strange question because, you either believe in the Quran based on the writing you find within the Quran or you reject it. If your faith depends on the fact that the hadeeth proves to you that this is a historically preserved document, then we have many other historically preserved documents as well. Will these same people believe in Ghulam Mirza as a prophet because his sayings are also preserved (Actually much more preserved than the Prophet Muhammed PBUH). This whole question makes no sense to me.
Welcome back. I wasn't active for many years either and decided to come back a week ago or so.
Hadither Adnan's approach was to try to trap the quranists into 'admitting' that the ''same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form, making it as 'useless' as hadiths. That is why he kept ordering him to prove how the Quran was preserved.
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Actually the hadithist are using this same line argument everytime that same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form.
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source
A commonly stated argument by those who wish to raise traditional heresay/ahadith to divine-status level is that its preservation and compilation was the same as The Quran.
Is that really true? Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...
The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's wordThe Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet MuhammadThe Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmittedThe Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection statedThe Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etcThe Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistency, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistencies etc.And if that doesn't work, just ask an advocate of Hadith "what is the earliest extant dated hadith script?" and watch them squirm. Most will not have an answer. Some may cite the following problematic collection. Based on various studies into this, to my knowledge it seems the answer is somewhere between 80-150 years after the prophet. Note, we are not talking about collections of Bukhari, Muslim here, as they are much later.
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Actually the hadithist are using this same line argument everytime that same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form.
Exactly.
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Actually the hadithist are using this same line argument everytime that same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form.
Peace,
False! Hearsay are countless and contradictory cannot be collaborated until 150 - 250 years after revelation.
159 indeed we descended we of the reminder and indeed for it surely guardians being
There are enough old manuscripts (see my prior post) MA VI 165 probability 95.4% between 649-675 CE
Contains ~20% Qur'an from 1736 to 3655
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165Few more examples earlier Qur'an initials were NOT numbered.
False claim! "that ?original? 203 is without nun but the modern version includes it"
http//submission.org/verify_preserving_and_protecting_Quran.htmlWe clearly see initials 201 ta ha NOT counted and "nun" present
203 except reminder to who concernedhttps//s22.postimg.org/ioputpm75/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch19v97-ch20v16.jpg
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Actually the hadithist are using this same line argument everytime that same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form.
actually this is the HEIGHT of STUPIDITY by the claimaints
if it was that necessary then along with quran hadees must be preserved in some parchments or early caliphs recorded it as the law..
either they have shortage of papers for writting this important so called holy hadees
or
they were not taking it as an important task to get accomplished?
or
early caliphs were well aware about the fact that quran is detailed hence no need of any outside source?they can only select one..
as a gift hadees by bukhari ..
upon the death of prophet , before getting die prophet ask a paper and pen to write something for muslim nation but caliph omar refused to give paper and pen , and he said the book of God is enough for us..
although in this so called story there are errors of logic.. first mistake omar refused to obey command of prophet
second mistake the author of hadees copied this thing even after knowing it can fireback at his own worth...stupidity upon stupidity...
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Welcome back. I wasn't active for many years either and decided to come back a week ago or so.
Hadither Adnan's approach was to try to trap the quranists into 'admitting' that the ''same people who preserved the hadiths were the people who also preserved the quran''. Hence, if you deny the hadiths you are also denying that Quran has been preserved in its original form, making it as 'useless' as hadiths. That is why he kept ordering him to prove how the Quran was preserved.
Yes but my query is different. Why does it matter who it was who preserved the Quran? I think that people believe in the Quran based on the message they find within the Quran and not based on who it was that preserved it. This question presupposes that you believe Muhammed (PBUH) to be a messenger of God BEFORE believing in the message (i.e. Quran) that he taught. So you either read the Quran and accept that its divinely inspired or you only believe in it if you believe that it is the message that Muhammad (PBUH) received. I don't know if i've been able to convey my thoughts correctly, but I see no need to prove its link if the message itself is what is inspiring a person to follow Islam and the guidance within the Quran.
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Uncle Adnan What is the definition of the Quran? (How would Marwan answer this to uncle if as inferior and skeptic, he has this question )
That's a great question from uncle Adnan. You won't come to know what science is by reading a book about it at first. You will actually get its definition from oral tradition of your parents if you ask them What's science?
Same with Quran. You will ask about its meaning from a Muslim who will then pretend to get the answer from the oral tradition of Bukhari and Co despite the fact it does not exist in the collections.
So how many skeptics, in other words, lower caste humans turn to hadiths to learn the definition and how many sectarian sites are actually providing them?
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Yes but my query is different. Why does it matter who it was who preserved the Quran? I think that people believe in the Quran based on the message they find within the Quran and not based on who it was that preserved it. This question presupposes that you believe Muhammed (PBUH) to be a messenger of God BEFORE believing in the message (i.e. Quran) that he taught. So you either read the Quran and accept that its divinely inspired or you only believe in it if you believe that it is the message that Muhammad (PBUH) received. I don't know if i've been able to convey my thoughts correctly, but I see no need to prove its link if the message itself is what is inspiring a person to follow Islam and the guidance within the Quran.
Yes you do convey what you want to say and I have kept saying that for ages. It is the content that defines the Qur'an , not how it came to us or how it was prreseved. If it had the most absolute guranteed preservation and said nonsense and contradictions, how shuld that help the nonsense or the contradictions.
We believe the Qur'an because the Qur'an convinces us, not by hearsay or reocommendation.
Salaam
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A debate btw quranist and hadithist in speakers corner London.
Would any want to counter the hadithist. I think the quranist was not more knowledgeable in Quran itself.
https//youtu.be/26FB8EHeFMcGosh, you guys still have time for hadith vs Quran alone debates? I have stopped that long ago. These debates do not lead anywhere and become an endless loop of repetitions. It is even worse if this debate is held verbally.
I've seen that video so many times on my YouTube recommended list, not for once did I click it. Rather than debating these hadithists, just create a blog examining and refuting their arguments. Invest your time on matters like salat, fasting, Hajj e.t.c according to Qur'an. -
Peace Neptin.
It is funny you say that debating is futile. Yes.I agree.
It is about time we realise GOD is debating the lot of us,every human,yet we have not grasped it yet?
Just look at what Qoran is doing to all that encounter it!!! Challenging their way of life and waking them up from the nightmare called "human nature , traditions/religions/systems...".You are quite right in saying one is wasting their time debating any other that holds a different view. There is simply no general agreement on many things yet!
However, Qoran has many surprises to come to all of us. Just you ,I and everyone else wait and see,GOD is patiently waiting too.
This comes to mind" We throw the truth at falsehood and it gives it a big headache"( Or something similar)
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I see some people saying that how the Quran was preserved it's irrelevant.
However, I find the question from Adnan quite interesting.
How do we know the Quran was preserved?Imran you said that if the answer isn't in the Quran than look at history but why can't the Hadith be used as a history book?
Some of it might be wrong and some of it might be right but upon analysis they should clarify some matters.PS For those believing that knowing how the Quran was preserved it's irrelevant, what are your reasons for believing so?
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Imran you said that if the answer isn't in the Quran than look at history but why can't the Hadith be used as a history book?
Some of it might be wrong and some of it might be right but upon analysis they should clarify some matters.i said if u did not find the answer in quran then look into history
with quran its not the case
quran is written by prophet himself evidence is in quranthe people who bring bukhari are not the same people who bring quran its illogical to compare both books on same pattern
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i said if u did not find the answer in quran then look into history
with quran its not the case
quran is written by prophet himself evidence is in quranthe people who bring bukhari are not the same people who bring quran its illogical to compare both books on same pattern
I feel like you've just repeated what you said earlier and my question still stands.
You said if u did not find the answer in quran then look into history
What I am saying is, ok let's look at the history... the way we look at history is by gathering information about the events occurred in the past, cross referencing them eventually and making sure what is found is correct.
Now documents are a way to do this, Hadith is a document as well, so why not use the Hadith to check analyse history?No one is comparing both books, I am simply saying that if you agree that we can look into history should we not find the answer in the Quran, then why can't look into the history by analysing the Hadith?
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ok make it easy this time
if u not find the answer in quran regarding the preservation of quran?
then go to step 2 for finding answer other wise step two is invalid.what is the use of looking something outside the house when the thing u r looking is in ur room?
