Rawāsiya and Tamīda
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Peace Comrox,
Peace Anoushirvan,
Same as the letter from Solomon to queen of Sheba in surah 27. It is written at the first person being God, but Solomon wrote it.
Perhaps this one,
4251
4251 Wama kana libasharin an yukallimahu Allahu illa wahyan aw min wara-i hijabin aw yursila rasoolan fayoohiya bi-ithnihi ma yashao innahu AAaliyyun hakeemun
4251 And it is not for any mortal that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.Together with this one
534
534 In huwa illa wahyun yooha
534 It is only a divine revealed inspiration.Yup, that's what I was thinking of. Thanks
Thank you for pointing me this verse. I need then to update my understanding.
Gardens (with) rivers flowing beneath
jannatin tajree min tahtiha al-anharu
There are a lot of verses like that, e.g. 225, 2266, 315, 3136, etc.
So whatever is symbolized by gardens lies above what is symbolized by rivers.
River with clear negative meaning
2249
2.249. Falamma fasala talootu bialjunoodi qala inna Allaha mubtaleekum binaharin faman shariba minhu falaysa minnee waman lam yatAAamhu fa-innahu minnee illa mani ightarafa ghurfatan biyadihi fashariboo minhu illa qaleelan minhum falamma jawazahu huwa waallatheena amanoo maAAahu qaloo la taqata lana alyawma bijaloota wajunoodihi qala allatheena yathunnoona annahum mulaqoo Allahi kam min fi-atin qaleelatin ghalabat fi-atan katheeratan bi-ithni Allahi waAllahu maAAa alssabireena
2249 So when Talut set out with the soldiers, he said "God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me." They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said "We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!" But the ones who understood that they would meet God said "How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!"What does this river represent so that drinking its water leads to weakness against disbelievers ?
Confusion, fear, uncertainty of God's will, lack of trust in God, lack of trust in themselves, etc.
River with positive meaning
4715
47.15. Mathalu aljannati allatee wuAAida almuttaqoona feeha anharun min ma-in ghayri asinin waanharun min labanin lam yataghayyar taAAmuhu waanharun min khamrin laththatin lilshsharibeena waanharun min AAasalin musaffan walahum feeha min kulli alththamarati wamaghfiratun min rabbihim kaman huwa khalidun fee alnnari wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of intoxicants that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?Rivers and mountains (rawasiya )
133
13.3. Wahuwa allathee madda al-arda wajaAAala feeha rawasiya waanharan wamin kulli alththamarati jaAAala feeha zawjayni ithnayni yughshee allayla alnnahara inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona
133 And He is the One who has spread out the land, and made in it (firm) mountains and rivers, and all the fruits He made in pairs. The night covers the day. In that are signs for a people who think.This verse makes it clear the opposition of fix mountains with respect to flowing rivers.
So in general rivers are a symbolic marker for something unstable, hence my proposal it symbolizes confusion of mind.
But verse 4715 seems to be the exception to this marker. Then I would say it carries a different symbolic meaning of rivers (in fact I wonder it was truly part of the revelation, but it is another debate, off-topic here).Alright, cool. I wonder if it's the only exception. (It was the only verse that stood out to me on the "rivers" page I posted earlier.)
This is an interesting topic! I feel like all of the natural signs in Qur'an should be studied one day; that would be fascinating. How much have you studied about rivers? You've opened my eyes to something new.
RED yes
BLUE >
There there Bender. I still think you're pretty great.
Peace. peace
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Peace Anoushirvan,
Peace Comrox,
River with clear negative meaning
2249 So when Talut set out with the soldiers, he said "God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me." They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said "We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!" But the ones who understood that they would meet God said "How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!"What does this river represent so that drinking its water leads to weakness against disbelievers ?
Confusion, fear, uncertainty of God's will, lack of trust in God, lack of trust in themselves, etc.
Yes, I'd say so.
Alright, cool. I wonder if it's the only exception. (It was the only verse that stood out to me on the "rivers" page I posted earlier.)
I forgot this half-exception
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2.74. Thumma qasat quloobukum min baAAdi thalika fahiya kaalhijarati aw ashaddu qaswatan wa-inna mina alhijarati lama yatafajjaru minhu al-anharu wa-inna minha lama yashshaqqaqu fayakhruju minhu almao wa-inna minha lama yahbitu min khashyati Allahi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona
2.74 . Then , even after that , your hearts were hardened and became as rocks , or worse than rocks , for hardness . For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush , and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water comes out from them . And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah . Allah is not unaware of what ye do .I am also intrigued by how close the root "nhr", giving nahar/river, is from "nwr", giving nar/fire. I don't know if there is a grammatical theory about roots influencing each others.
This is an interesting topic! I feel like all of the natural signs in Qur'an should be studied one day; that would be fascinating. How much have you studied about rivers? You've opened my eyes to something new.
I proposed one interpretation of rivers and mountains but I am open to alternatives, of course.
I find that there are a lot of examples of pairs in Qur'an where each member of one pair represents opposite qualities to other member.
Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ? -
Peace Anoushirvan,
Peace Comrox,
Yes, I'd say so.
I forgot this half-exception
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2.74. Thumma qasat quloobukum min baAAdi thalika fahiya kaalhijarati aw ashaddu qaswatan wa-inna mina alhijarati lama yatafajjaru minhu al-anharu wa-inna minha lama yashshaqqaqu fayakhruju minhu almao wa-inna minha lama yahbitu min khashyati Allahi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona
2.74 . Then , even after that , your hearts were hardened and became as rocks , or worse than rocks , for hardness . For indeed there are rocks from out which rivers gush , and indeed there are rocks which split asunder so that water comes out from them . And indeed there are rocks which fall down for the fear of Allah . Allah is not unaware of what ye do .Good find. D
I am also intrigued by how close the root "nhr", giving nahar/river, is from "nwr", giving nar/fire. I don't know if there is a grammatical theory about roots influencing each others.
Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of classical Arabic grammar can answer this. )
I proposed one interpretation of rivers and mountains but I am open to alternatives, of course.
I find that there are a lot of examples of pairs in Qur'an where each member of one pair represents opposite qualities to other member.
Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ?And also why is there suffering?
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What do you mean?
Anoushirvan said the following
Mountains/rivers, day/night, heavens/earth, clay/fire, hell/paradise, believer/disbeliever.
I believe these kinds of examples answer to the following objection by the adversaries of Mohamed why would God create people that don't believe in Him, and also create people that believe in Him ?I was adding on to that rhetorical questioning by including, "Why is there suffering?"
Hope you understand now. peace
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I am also intrigued by how close the root "nhr", giving nahar/river, is from "nwr", giving nar/fire. I don't know if there is a grammatical theory about roots influencing each others.
Salaamun,
Root of the word 'nhr' is different that the root of word 'nwr'
For NHR please check here.
For NWR please check here.
BTW I do not agree that alNaar comes from the root NWR. But they are two different words and 'H' is missing in alNaar.
One more word to consider used in 1924.
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Salaamun,
Root of the word 'nhr' is different that the root of word 'nwr'
For NHR please check here.
For NWR please check here.
BTW I do not agree that alNaar comes from the root NWR. But they are two different words and 'H' is missing in alNaar.
One more word to consider used in 1924.
Indeed.
Salaam
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Salaamun,
Root of the word 'nhr' is different that the root of word 'nwr'
I know both roots are different. But
Concept of root is a tool invented by grammarians and linguists.
It is a model that helps grammarians and linguists to define lexical fields and classify words.
It is not part of the speech itself.A bit like Einstein's theory of gravitation is a very nice theory that models physical phenomena of gravitation, but it is not physical phenomena of gravitation itself.
And physicits know that Einstein's theory fails in some corner cases (e.g. at the center of black holes).Roots in Arabic were invented by (Persians) grammarians more than 150 years after Qur'an was revealed.
Therefore, though very useful, this concept must be handled with a bit of caution when it comes to understanding Qur'an.
Indeed, people at the time of Qur'an revelation wouldn't have heard and understood by root of words, since this concept of roots was inexistant at that time.
Instead they would have heard and understood by assonance, and sometimes metathesis.Additionally, I don't believe that Qur'an is the speech of God. I believe it is the speech of the messenger.
When people believe Qur'an is the speech of God, they tend to also believe the verses in Qur'an are unequivocal with a single understanding.
Since I believe Qur'an is the speech of the messenger, trying to explain his divine revelation, I also see that Qur'an contains metaphores, allegories, word games and other figures of speech, like any other human text.
So, for example, to me, nahar / nar is a play of words by assonance in some verses, mountains are allegories that denote solid theological constructions, etc.PS you quoted a passage of mine dating back one year ago. My understanding may have evolved since.
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Peace Anoushirvan.
When you say,quote
Since I believe Qur'an is the speech of the messenger, trying to explain his divine revelation, I also see that Qur'an contains metaphores, allegories, word games and other figures of speech, like any other human text.
Do you mean the messenger has not repeated word for word what was revealed to him?
Are you saying the messenger changed the words of GOD to his own words?
GOD was absolutely right when he said "Some will say this is the speech of a human "Kaoulu Al-Bashar""?
I can only say that you must have another Qoran besides the one I am studying?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Good Logic,
Peace Anoushirvan.
When you say,quote
Since I believe Qur'an is the speech of the messenger, trying to explain his divine revelation, I also see that Qur'an contains metaphores, allegories, word games and other figures of speech, like any other human text.
Do you mean the messenger has not repeated word for word what was revealed to him?
Are you saying the messenger changed the words of GOD to his own words?
GOD was absolutely right when he said "Some will say this is the speech of a human "Kaoulu Al-Bashar""?
I can only say that you must have another Qoran besides the one I am studying?
GOD bless you.
Peace.When I say this is the speech of the messenger, I'm actually quoting this passage
69.40.
It is truly the speech of a noble messenger69.41.
It is not poet ' s speech little is it that ye believe!69.42.
Nor diviner ' s speech little is it that ye remember!69.43.
It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds .Btw, verses 69.41 and 69.42 make it clear that the "noble messenger" in verse 69.40 is not an angel, otherwise they would hardly make sense (of course an angel is not a poet nor a diviner).
You are referring to this verse
74.25.
74.25. In hatha illa qawlu albashari
74.25 It is nothing else than the speech of a mortal man.This verse doesn't say that Qur'an is not the speech of a mortal man.
It says that the guy who turned away failed to see that this speech was driven by a divine inspiration.I don't deny that the text of Qur'an was driven by a divine inspiration. I deny it is the speech of God from Himself to the messenger
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Peace Anushirvan.
In that case you are missing the context .Qoran is not like any human text!!!!!Let us look at 7425. The context start from before
...
7423
Then he turned away arrogantly.7424
He said, "This is but clever magic!7425
"This is the speech of a human."7426
I will commit him to retribution....You see brother Qoran is saying to us "this is not the speech of a human" .This is the speech of an "honourable messenger" . A messenger repeats the words of GOD exactly.A messenger does not use his own words ,he keeps the words of GOD intact!!!!.
Let me remind you of your quote again
Since I believe Qur'an is the speech of the messenger, trying to explain his divine revelation, I also see that Qur'an contains metaphores, allegories, word games and other figures of speech, like any other human text.
You were saying Qoran is like any other human text?
Just thought I will clarify for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
the owner of (message) is always the one who send it.. directly or indirectly dosent matter
inspiration and revelation is not same..
current bible is inspiration
current quran is revelation ..speech of messenger= he is (messaging) to nation from the authority of God..
messenger is a medium for conveying message(msn is a messenger) but not the owner of words and expression between parties..
its like God send a parcel(message)
gabriel deleivered that parcel to prophet
prophet open that parcel and share it with other fellow human beings
followers of prophet make copies of that parcel and delievered it to other people around their areas
language experts interpret this message (in native languages) from this step some things become unclear as per 37peace
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Peace Good Logic,
Peace Anushirvan.
In that case you are missing the context .Qoran is not like any human text!!!!!Let us look at 7425. The context start from before
You are misunderstanding the context you are quoting.
...
7423
Then he turned away arrogantly.7424
He said, "This is but clever magic!The mistake is here siHr doesn't mean magic in the sense of voodoo.
It means deception and delusion. It is always used in the meaning of deception and delusion in Qur'an.
This is also confirmed in the Maqays al-Lughat of Ibn Faris, see http//baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%B3%D8%AD%D8%B1Yu'tharu doesn't mean clever but something that follows the track of another one.
So verse 74.24 says this is only deception that follows the track of another. That is this is only a deception that is not new.
Verse 74.24 doesn't suggest Qur'an is a divine magic text.7425
"This is the speech of a human."This translation doesn't capture the full meaning of the verse. In hadha illa qawl al-bashiri this is not but the speech of the mortal.
So, verses 74.24 & 74.25 say "This speech is not a divine revelation, it is a deception that we have already heard in the past".
You see brother Qoran is saying to us "this is not the speech of a human" .This is the speech of an "honourable messenger" . A messenger repeats the words of GOD exactly.A messenger does not use his own words ,he keeps the words of GOD intact!!!!.
There is no "words of God" in the sense of the words of a text as you imply. When Qur'an speaks of the Words of God, it says that
18.109.
18.109 . Say Though the sea became ink for the Words of my Lord , verily the sea would be used up before the Words of my Lord were exhausted , even though We brought the like thereof to help .You see, with a small bottle of ink, you can copy a complete Qur'an.
If you think well, this verse 18.109 gives you the meaning of the "words of God", and you will understand what kind of message is transmitted by the messenger. It's not a text.
Qur'an is only a support, more exactly an argument, to explain the message, not the message itself.
Let me remind you of your quote again
Since I believe Qur'an is the speech of the messenger, trying to explain his divine revelation, I also see that Qur'an contains metaphores, allegories, word games and other figures of speech, like any other human text.
You were saying Qoran is like any other human text?
Just thought I will clarify for you.Actually, believing that Qur'an is the exact words of God is an idea that has lead and is still leading to crimes.
There are verses that say like "kill them wherever you will find them".
Since God ordered so, then these verses must be obeyed.That's why we have terrorist groups today, and in the past, violent conquests of Middle East by Arabs, Europe by Turkey, and India by Aghans and Moghols.
By reading Qur'an as the exact words of God, they failed to grasp to exact message delivered through Qur'an, why it was delivered and they fought the wrong way.
I know Qur'an-only people want to have a softer understanding of Qur'an and reject past and current exactions on the account of Sunna and hadiths. But Quran-only people are not immune to extremism.
And most of the concepts I read on FM about the deen / the system according to Quran-only interpretation is nothing but dictatorship in disguise. -
Salaamun bro,
I know both roots are different. But
Concept of root is a tool invented by grammarians and linguists.
It is a model that helps grammarians and linguists to define lexical fields and classify words.Roots in Arabic were invented by (Persians) grammarians more than 150 years after Qur'an was revealed.
Therefore, though very useful, this concept must be handled with a bit of caution when it comes to understanding Qur'an.I agree.
Indeed, people at the time of Qur'an revelation wouldn't have heard and understood by root of words, since this concept of roots was inexistant at that time.
Instead they would have heard and understood by assonance, and sometimes metathesis.I don't agree with this over all concept of revelation.
Additionally, I don't believe that Qur'an is the speech of God. I believe it is the speech of the messenger.
I agree.
Now back to the topic the patterns of words makes it clear that alNahr and alNaar are two different words.
May Rabb increase our knowledge and guide us on His path
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Peace Anoushirvan.
My understanding and your understanding of Qoran obviously differ. According to you if it is the word of God it leads to,quote
Actually, believing that Qur'an is the exact words of God is an idea that has lead and is still leading to crimes.
There are verses that say like "kill them wherever you will find them".
Since God ordered so, then these verses must be obeyed.That's why we have terrorist groups today, and in the past, violent conquests of Middle East by Arabs, Europe by Turkey, and India by Aghans and Moghols.
By reading Qur'an as the exact words of God, they failed to grasp to exact message delivered through Qur'an, why it was delivered and they fought the wrong way.
And if you believe it is the speech of a human it will lead to your understanding?
This is defected logic!!!! How is one supposed to come to this conclusion about the same book? It does not make sense!!!!!
Listen to your argument once more ,in these words,yes now my words (speech of a human)
"If you read/study Qoran but believe it is the words of GOD,you become a fundamentalist/terrorist...But if you read/study Qoran and believe it is the speech of a human you become someone like yourself!!!!".
What more can I say about this logic?
I am afraid me and you will be wasting our time carrying on this conversation,
So,thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.