Was Quran between Hands of Rassool Muhammad ?

noshirk

Salaam

I have to add some verses

67 And if We had sent down to you a book written on paper, and they touched it with their own hands, then those who have rejected would say ?This is but clear magic!?
68 And they said ?If only an angel were sent down to him?? But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would be settled, then they would no longer be respited.

and

5101 O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if clarified, would harm you - and if you ask about them with the Qur?an being revealed, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

i recall that my position is that there is two shots and not one shot.
And 5-101 can fit with the hypothesis that "quran anticipates questions that will occur after"

even if we suppose that quran was revealed in one shot (or two), as a download in the mind of Rassool, there would be a transitional period in wich it is transcripted from the mind to publishable writings (riqqin manchour 52-3)

let's take the problem from another side.
gradual revelation needs two extra quranic sciences asbab el nozool (context of revelation) and order revelation science. And "Quran only" people are then on a false path.
No mention in quran for such sciences.
And note also that the "order of revelation" we have ( ;D) mention only sourates and not verses.

it is not clear to what a sourate correspond in reality. the variabilty of their length is problematic.
A unit of publishing once the quran in mind of Muhammad ?
The publishing periode, sourate by sourate could then explain the gardual appearence of quran. It is a process that would have took a time.
Note also that a long period of revelation is less more impressive than a one shot revelation. Perhaps a poet can do something like that. Over 23 years ( ;D) we are at the speed of less than a verse per day.

however i found no trace in quran of a "revelation unit" of a verse.
And the gradual theory fit more with set of verses ganularity of revelation and not a sourate granularity.

As i said, it is not an easy subject o
We are still at the stage where people have trouble seeing Muhammad with a Quran in his hands.

Peace

imrankhawaja

can you show me this battle in quran ?

why not , start reading from (3-144-170)

please note also that there is other interpretation for badr than the meaning of place.

am i talking about badr ? dnt you even know the history of battles.. ok historically its called "uhad"
but dosent matter about names ... let me draw a picture for you of the battle i m talking about...

3152-155 And God has fulfilled His promise to you, that you would overwhelm them with His permission; but then you failed and disputed in the matter and disobeyed after He showed you what you had sought. Some of you want this world, and some of you want the Hereafter. Then He let you retreat from them that He may test you; and He has pardoned you. God is with great grace over the believers.For you were climbing the hill and would not even glance towards anyone, and the messenger was calling you from behind. Therefore, He gave you worry to replace your worry, so that you would not have sadness by what has passed you, or for what afflicted you, and God is Ever-aware of what you do.Then after the worry, He sent down to you a peaceful slumber, overtaking a group of you; while another group was worried about themselves; they were thinking about God other than the truth, the thoughts of the days of ignorance. They say, "Why are we involved in this affair?" Say, "The entire affair is up to God." They hide in their persons what they do not show to you; they say, "If we had a say in this affair then none of us would have been killed here." Say, "If you were inside your own homes, then the ones who have been marked for death would have gone forth to their resting place." God will test what is in your chests and bring out what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable as to what is in the chests.The day the two armies met, the devil caused some of you to turn away, because of what they had gained. God has pardoned them, for God is Forgiver, Compassionate.

POINT to PONDER
did God pardon them before the event if the scripture was sent down at once?
is this logical if people were aware about a coming event and they still disobey the leader?

you are giving arguments based on beliefs coming from other books.

not really... & ( nope ) &
all that time i m using quran as reference .. hmm ( yes ) hmm

peace..

noshirk

am i talking about badr ? dnt you even know the history of battles.. ok historically its called "uhad"
but dosent matter about names ... let me draw a picture for you of the battle i m talking about...

3152-155 And God has fulfilled His promise to you, that you would overwhelm them with His permission; but then you failed and disputed in the matter and disobeyed after He showed you what you had sought. Some of you want this world, and some of you want the Hereafter. Then He let you retreat from them that He may test you; and He has pardoned you. God is with great grace over the believers.For you were climbing the hill and would not even glance towards anyone, and the messenger was calling you from behind. Therefore, He gave you worry to replace your worry, so that you would not have sadness by what has passed you, or for what afflicted you, and God is Ever-aware of what you do.Then after the worry, He sent down to you a peaceful slumber, overtaking a group of you; while another group was worried about themselves; they were thinking about God other than the truth, the thoughts of the days of ignorance. They say, "Why are we involved in this affair?" Say, "The entire affair is up to God." They hide in their persons what they do not show to you; they say, "If we had a say in this affair then none of us would have been killed here." Say, "If you were inside your own homes, then the ones who have been marked for death would have gone forth to their resting place." God will test what is in your chests and bring out what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable as to what is in the chests.The day the two armies met, the devil caused some of you to turn away, because of what they had gained. God has pardoned them, for God is Forgiver, Compassionate.

Salaam

I know the difference between badr and uhud.
my remark is that in additional, badr can be another thing than a name of battle or place of a batlle.
i am contesting the two alleaged batlles. I contest also that Muhammad was in the area called now makka and medina.

and concerning the verses you quoted , i see no UHUD and no defeat of a muslim army.
we have to turn back to arabic version.

so my question is
how do you know that theses verses concern a battle named UHUD where army of muslims was defeated by another army if your "subconscient" is not alluding facts you have read elsewhere than in quran ?

when i read theses verses, i don't see a defeat but just some deserters.
this is what 3-156 clarifies
l

POINT to PONDER no uhud no point to ponder. And also, people who desobey messenger of Allah can be false believers and don't believe in fact that the events will happen even if mentionned. Quran mentions many times hypocrits and false believers between the "followers" of Muhammad.

Peace

imrankhawaja

POINT to PONDER no uhud no point to ponder. And also, people who desobey messenger of Allah can be false believers and don't believe in fact that the events will happen even if mentionned. Quran mentions many times hypocrits and false believers between the "followers" of Muhammad.

peace

brother you did not really ponder on the point..

i didnt bring any names in my discussion i.e badr and uhud..
you pointed out to the badr , and i told you what battle (historically) i am talking about.. (names dosent matter) ,

there are lot of other verses of quran that also pointed out some changes in "qibla"(direction/focul point) which also shows a gradual process of scripture..

the purpose of talking about this event .. how you see all this ? with respect to "gradual " process what we are talking about..

where these two armies met? before scripture or after recieving scripture? thats what point of ponder and if you see verses it appears muslims suffer from heavy loss .. what they didnt expected ?

as a HISTORY note , there was a key figure of this battle named as "khalid bin waleed" who accept islam after that battle..
although its not relevant as we dnt need to rely on history sources it may b right and wrong ..

there are not only one verse its lot of other verses like 2885 and 6848 untill then you did not provide any reasoning to any question regarding these situations of verses..

noshirk

peace

there are lot of other verses of quran that also pointed out some changes in "qibla"(direction/focul point) which also shows a gradual process of scripture..

Salaam Bro

i think i understand what you mean since i think it is beliefs i had before i change my comprehension.

the problem is that i have totally rejected all what oul?mas teached us and that i read now the quran in totally different way with totally different understanding. You can consider me as an exrtemist quranist.
The most difficult thing for me was to reject all the "false contexts" remained in my mind after the rejection of oulemas teaching. Saying "i reject hadiths" is not sufficient to purify (zakat) the mind from their teachings.

For example, Qibla has nothing to do for me with focal point and the only change in qibla is the change from old spiritual path to the one teached in Quran. Qibla has nothing to do for me with salat direction and salat has nothing to do with the prosternations series. Salat is reading quran twice a day for me and masjid haram is not a temple but whatever place listening to words of God occurs. For exemple, free-minds website is a kind of masjid haram and i am know facing the qibla of free-minds masjid haram.

i see absolutely no graduality in change of qibla in quran. Muhammad was on another qibla (his old beliefs) and changed to the new one.
That is mainly because even if we read the same text, words have differents meanings for boths of us.
if you read 2-143, you will notice that there is absolutely no "muslim" who turned back to the old "qibla". How Allah will distiguish them?
But if qibla is the direction of pagan beliefs, not teached in quran, who turned back, i think it will be very easy to distinguish them.

When you mention Khaled ibn al Waleed as a key figure in Uhud batlle, you are referring to an history and a "quranic context" i have rejected.
these are extra quranics facts mentionned only in "religious" books written by authors not agreed by Allah

this is why i think we will not find an agreement.
What i mean, and i not intend to offend you, is that when we read quran, there is extra comments between lines, invisible for the eyes, that are written by "culture" and perhaps by chaytan. It is difficult not to read them. I did a hard work to no more read them.
this is the meaning for me of
1698 When you read the Qur?an, you shall seek refuge with God from the outcast devil.
and unfortunately, 16-98 became quite a "magic" formula recited before reading quran. Like the formula "bismillah", wich means with words of god, wich is used before any speech, even political ones. And all theses practices are teached by the invisbles lines we should not read

Note i don't even understand what are the arguments you find in 2885 and 6848.

Peace

imrankhawaja

Salaam Bro

i think i understand what you mean since i think it is beliefs i had before i change my comprehension.

the problem is that i have totally rejected all what oul?mas teached us and that i read now the quran in totally different way with totally different understanding. You can consider me as an exrtemist quranist.

w salam,

brother when i m giving reference , it does not matter what interpretation you follow..

but my point is not to understand what "qibla" is..

my point is, its a change happen and followers advised to change the "qibla" ..
considering this thing in mind .. we can understand it was a gradual process.. thats our topic..

and you still did not provide the reasonings of all other verses that indicates that scripture is a gradual process..

if i have to debate with you , what salat is, what soum is, what qibla is, what alcohal is(2219) then i will ask from different perspective..

all that time the reference of these things is to tell you its a problemtic theory to accept the scripture recieved at once.. (THATS ALL)

now i request you, not tell me what qibla is, what battle is, what alcohal is.. just tell me.. what is the reasonings for these verses that shows it was a gradual process

and look you did not understand 2885, and 6848 just becoz all that time you did not understand why i ask and what i asking ..
when i gave the reference of this it appears the reciever of scripture is advised to be patient .. on things..(which also indicate a gradual process)..

now plz tell why the battle between two armies is written in there, what is the purpose of telling people that God pardon them even after they refuse to obey the leader? atleast this thing doest not require any outside source to understand what is the context of passage?
and why the 2219 is there if it was all recieved at once?
why God advising prophet to be patient ?if it was all recieved once?
why there were atleast two meeting of dispatcher and reciever ?ch 53

i feel you are helpless in providing any satisfactory logic with respect to above event as well as other events what i pointed out which shows a " gradual process "

God bless you

imrankhawaja

You can consider me as an exrtemist quranist.

although its out of topic so i m addressing it here..

where did you get that term "quranist"?
do you have any evidence that prophets like abraham were quranist?
is it not sounds like another sect?

islam is the only system infront of God?
muslim is the one who is follower of God system..

noshirk

salam bro imrankhawaja

let's make it short.

to prove graduality, you have to show at least two verses
1- a before verse saying something like event A will happen or do B
2- an after verse saying something like event A happened or no more do B.

for whatever proof based on only one verse, i will accuse you to bring the before ot the after verse for extra quranic source. That is the hallucinations that come from beliefs remained in your mind even after saying "i no more believe in hadith". I don't even know if you says something like that.

let's see axample.
An important event called hijra occured. Can you show me a verse speaking of hijra in future even as a possibility ?
Muhammad has clearly many wifes in Quran and "clerical history" says that he was married with khadija many years while he was already rassool. Can you show me a verse speaking of an only wife, of khadija, or something relative to condolences about her death.
can you show a verse saying "in further sourates, we will speaok about ..." or "we will soon give you true version of Youssef history"

what you call battle of UHUD in where you see a muslim defeat is clearly an after verse. Please show me the before verse and i will Present my apologies.
same for 2-219.

Note extremist quranist is only a label that help you situate me. "Koffars" are monopolizing the Muslim label nowadays.
We have not same definition of what is a muslim end even of what is the god system. So i am not sure that we have same deen and not even that we have same definition of deen. You can accuse me to be a kafir or a sect member if you want. No problem for me.

Peace

imrankhawaja

salam bro imrankhawaja

let's make it short.

to prove graduality, you have to show at least two verses
1- a before verse saying something like event A will happen or do B
2- an after verse saying something like event A happened or no more do B.

w salam brother..
i think i m fail to make you understand what i m asking from you again and again and again.. the only thing i hate in life is to repeat myself.. anyway lets take another approach this time i will fullfill your wish from one point to another..

read chapter 30 from first verse to 5th verse and then tell me is it not enough? (or atleast try to understand what and when the event occured)

BOLD your approach is childish approach why will quran tell us grass is green when its already green?(2532)
do u think prophet write all that with his right hand (2948, 255) in one night? is it possible really?
if its possible then whats this 16101 And if We exchange a revelation in place of another revelation; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say ?You are making this up!? Alas, most of them do not know.

lets carry on with your approach where do you find it all revealed at once? (provide evidence from QURAN) atleast one verse

on the other hand i am also claiming something but i have verses that is showing a gradual process on different events

please reply me with all these verses and all other verses what i ask like battle what we were talking (thats the last time i m repeating my questions) after that i ll not ask from you .. handshake i'll just understand that you are unable to crack my questions or u are unable to backup your theory

on other words i feel you are asking why quran did not mention events by dates? (2 219) look God miss the date when did people ask this question rotfl
probably becoz numbers were not in use at that time thats why verse numbering come after a long time lol

same goes with qibla changing.. God miss to mention the dates of this change ...opps

i feel God even miss the date of adam creation
God miss the dates of moses and events of his era?
God even miss when did they try to kill jesus?
God even miss the date when did the blind man of chapter(80) came in play ?

i feel there is not any date mention in scripture.. he missed all the dates of all events .. if you find any date let me know it will be a new information for me..

for you God miss the date when did he revealed the scripture all at once?

God bless you

imrankhawaja

Note extremist quranist is only a label that help you situate me. "Koffars" are monopolizing the Muslim label nowadays.
We have not same definition of what is a muslim end even of what is the god system. So i am not sure that we have same deen and not even that we have same definition of deen. You can accuse me to be a kafir or a sect member if you want. No problem for me.

two wrong did not make one right
whoever is using anything God is well aware about it.. so it doesnt matter if kuffar are using the label peacemaking..

he selected a system(deen) for you
and he told you that is islam...

i did not see any advantage or purpose of using that label "extreme quranist"

you are what you are from inside your heart.. intrestingly he knows whats inside our hearts..

i dnt know about your deen and how you see your deen is different from me? if you believe in the deen of God..

unless the name/purpose of your deen is troublemaking instead of peacemaking then i can agree that we are on different system/deen

noshirk

Salaam imrankhawaja

I no more want to debate with you
you are not even debating on the subject of the thread.

Peace