Quran Classification
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Peace HP_TECH
You are misunderstanding me,like you claim I am ignoring the verses you quote for me while I am saying to you ,you are not looking at the whole context of what GOD is really saying,we have to believe every word GOD speaks.So let me first define for you "Islam " as I understand it
It is the state of mind of anyone who recognizes God?s absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him.Anyone can be any person,any race and any religion.
Once that"GOD conscious" person develops the relationship with His creator ,it is up to GOD to inspire/work with that person according to GOD s knowledge of the person s convictions.
GOD said people of the torah can judge by what GOD has revealed in it,people of the Injeel can do the same. etc...
I am clearly saying to you,and please read my words carefully now so that there will be no misunderstanding
As far as we are concerned,anyone,yes anyone who is peaceful and has no issues with us ,we cannot say that person is not a believer.GOD is their judge only. "Innama alaika albalagh wa alaina alhisab"-you deliver the warning,GOD holds them to account-.
Your argument about people is premature and "agressive". GOD s mercy and forgiveness is open to all the peaceful and good people until the moment they die. Their judgement is with GOD.
Only those who oppress you/fight you/force you to leave GOD s Islam are the ones that GOD has clearly said to us you can defend yourself against. Like for like.
Of course GOD has said the majority are doomed ,but as far as we are concerned we should follow the best path indicated to us by our Lord and remain peaceful,good,forgiving,working on ourselves and being the best we can to those who wish us no harm,whoever they are.
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Do you exhort the people to be righteous, while forgetting yourselves, though you read the scripture? Do you not understand?Call to GOD,that is the best warning we can give,GOD takes care of His people. GOD has left the judgement of His deen to a predetermined day,not to be enforced by anyone in this life.
You work on yourself,I work on myself...etc.
Hope you understand me now.
If not,you are still my brother and we agree to disagree amicably.
May the Lord guide us both.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I consider it almost impossible. Even if it were possible, it would be impossible to objectively verify.
There is potentially a deeper problem with such a claim and that is the claimant can delude oneself into thinking their logic/reason/objectivity is perfect thus blinding them to the truth if a contrary view is encountered.
Desires/bias are part of human nature, e.g. see http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-human.html
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I consider it almost impossible. Even if it were possible, it would be impossible to objectively verify.
There is potentially a deeper problem with such a claim and that is the claimant can delude oneself into thinking their logic/reason/objectivity is perfect thus blinding them to the truth if a contrary view is encountered.
Desires/bias are part of human nature, e.g. see http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-human.html
I see where you're coming from.
Personally though, I think I am far from perfection, however I have Faith in The God to guide me to the correct interpretation and understanding of the matter.
And I do not mean 100% of the time, but with the most central and basic themes however I think it is very possible and kind of necessary.
I can also freely admit when I am unsure or think that I may be wrong.I genuinely do not have issues with contrary views, I have issues with illogical views and my approach is not to obstinately deny without causation but to inquire, this gives me a deeper understanding of the other view.
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Peace HP_TECH
You are misunderstanding me,like you claim I am ignoring the verses you quote for me while I am saying to you ,you are not looking at the whole context of what GOD is really saying,we have to believe every word GOD speaks.Peace GL,
Ok. No more misunderstanding each other. Read what I have to say and think about the many verses I have cited.
So let me first define for you "Islam " as I understand it
It is the state of mind of anyone who recognizes God?s absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him.I guess that might be acceptable, but Allah's definition is better. Why not use His? Why rely on your fallibility?
GOD said people of the torah can judge by what GOD has revealed in it,people of the Injeel can do the same. etc...
I know the verse. However, which Torah are you referring to? Is it the one which speaks of goyim?, the one which claims God rested on the seventh day?, the one which claims Lot slept with his daughters when he was drunk? the one which claims Jacob wrestled with God?
Please use your reason.And exactly which Injeel should they judge with? The Injeel which tells them the only way to God is through the son?, the same Injeel that claims that God gave His only begotten son for the world?, or the one which claims Jesus had a father named Joseph?, or the one which includes letters from false prophets that encourage them to eat all foods including pork(Paulinian doctrine)?
Please use your reason.These books have been corrupted without Quran there is no light. Period.
I am clearly saying to you,and please read my words carefully now so that there will be no misunderstanding
As far as we are concerned,anyone,yes anyone who is peaceful and has no issues with us ,we cannot say that person is not a believer.GOD is their judge only. "Innama alaika albalagh wa alaina alhisab"-you deliver the warning,GOD holds them to account-.
No you cannot say to anyone who is a believer or not perhaps. It does not mean that the prophet cannot or others with more understanding cannot. No where in that verse or context does it mean or say we cannot say to a person that they are not a believer. Those are your words only.
Listen to my words carefully. Being able to discern that someone is a disbeliever does not mean condemning them or judging them at all or even that you necessarily have to walk up to them and call them a disbeliever in their face. However to prove you wrong about this veery fact.
Look what the prophet is commanded to say to the Bedouins
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Say the Bedouins, "We believe." Say, "Not you believe; but say, "We have submitted," and has not yet entered the faith in your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger, not He will deprive you of your deeds anything. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.How can believers follow this command without being able to identify and recognize disbelievers?
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There are no in betweens GL. Period.
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He (is) the One Who created you and among you (is) a disbeliever and among you (is) a believer. And Allah of what you do (is) All-Seer.Your argument about people is premature and "agressive". GOD s mercy and forgiveness is open to all the peaceful and good people until the moment they die. Their judgement is with GOD.
My argument is not aggressive my tone is assertive.
Your words and personal opinions do not dictate how God's Mercy is distributed and to whom out of mere wishful thinking.
It is the opposite of what you say. (41Your hypotheticals are not realistic. If God sees good in people He guides them to the Straight Path and to the truth and the Light (Quran) if not He lets them go astray.
Also do not forget that God can make the deeds of any person worthless if they associate anything with Him.418
And not (is) the acceptance of repentance for those who do the evil deeds until when approaches one of them death, he says, "Indeed I repent now;" and not those who die while they (are) disbelievers. Those - We have prepared for them a punishment painful.Look at the root habitat ha ba ta too many examples to cite...
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Those (are) the ones who disbelieve in the Verses (of) their Lord, and the meeting (with) Him. So (are) vain their deeds, so not We will assign for them (on) the Day (of) the Resurrection any weight.3965
And verily, it has been revealed to you and to those who (were) before you, if you associate (with Allah) surely, will become worthless your deeds and you will surely be among the losers.2217, 7147 etc..........
Only those who oppress you/fight you/force you to leave GOD s Islam are the ones that GOD has clearly said to us you can defend yourself against. Like for like.
You are a bit confused I think, no where did I mention fighting or defending one self. Your argument here is just a plain straw-man fallacy.
Of course GOD has said the majority are doomed ,but as far as we are concerned we should follow the best path indicated to us by our Lord and remain peaceful,good,forgiving,working on ourselves and being the best we can to those who wish us no harm,whoever they are.
Of course, you are mentioning common sense things no one with good logic would dare argue against. That was never my point. My point is that there is a clear cut distinction between believers and disbelievers in this life and it is as day and night.
Call to GOD,that is the best warning we can give,GOD takes care of His people. GOD has left the judgement of His deen to a predetermined day,not to be enforced by anyone in this life.
You work on yourself,I work on myself...etc.
Hope you understand me now.
If not,you are still my brother and we agree to disagree amicably.
May the Lord guide us both.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Let Allah be the final judge between us
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Then if they argue with you, then say, "I have submit myself to Allah and (those) who follow me." And say to those who were given the Book, and the unlettered people, "Have you submitted yourselves?" Then if they submit then surely they are guided. But if they turn back then only on you (is) to convey. And Allah (is) All-Seer of slaves. -
Peace.
I see you are trying to understand Qoran,but you are picking and choosing and mixing up your believers.disbelievers,hypocrites,etc...
For example do you think all believers are easily identified? Or vice versa? You are not looking at the context of the verses,neither are you comparing what GOD is saying in the whole Qoran.
For example when GOD says "Ya ayuha lladina Aamanu,Aaminu bi Allah wa rasulihi...etc Why does God call them Oh those who believe then asks them to believe in Him...etc.
Then GOD says " Ya ayuha lladina Aamanu lima takuloona ma la tafaloon...etc
Then GOD says "The majority of those who believe commit "Shirk"...etc ( Why should we generalise about Jews and Christians when believers( according to your definition )do it?)
...I could go on,however you are saying you study Qoran...etc
Keep up your study ,concentrate on yourself(cleansing yourself),I do the same ...etc
Then hopefully ,you will stop differentiating between people unjustly,so will I etc....
We should be applying the best conduct/Iman GOD instructs us and not be premature in judging people without knowledge.
GOD differentiates in Qoran because GOD has the complete knowledge.Let us say"GOD grant us more knowledge" and LOVE GOD and LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR".
I will leave the judgement/differentiation to GOD Alone. You have your choice also.
I will close our conversation in friendship towards you and all those who wish me and other humans no harm and no unjust classification.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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Consider Surah Al-Bayyinah(9, is reading enough to be considered as clear evidence?
I don't understand
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Peace All.
A summary of what I claimed/said in my posts in this thread.
Clarification of my views/argument/justification(my own understanding) discussed here from Qoran436
You shall serve/worship God alone - do not associate anything with Him. You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. God does not like the arrogant show-offs.Does GOD mention any religion here? Can your neighbor be from any race /religion/...?
Who are we to claim we are the only guided "religion" and all others are "Kafirs"?
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Have you noted those who exalt themselves? Instead, God is the One who exalts whomever He wills, without the least injustice.494
O you who believe, if you "Darabtum" in the cause of God, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to the one who is peaceful with you, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For God possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and God blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure. God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.Some are so sure ? Yet some of those who they call "Kafirs" are more peaceful to them than their own brothers and sisters in belief?!!!!!
Are the following verses not clear?Is it up to us or up to GOD?
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Anyone who earns a sin, earns it to the detriment of his own soul. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.4123
It is not in accordance with your wishes, or the wishes of the people of the scripture anyone who commits evil pays for it, and will have no helper or supporter against God.4124
As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female, while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice.Or are we going to claim monopoly and say "Only the ones who believe like we believe"?
What is"Al Kist"? justice and Al-Haqq are required from all believers
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O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe God, when you serve as witnesses. Do not be provoked by your conflicts with some people into committing injustice. You shall be absolutely equitable, for it is more righteous. You shall observe God. God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.Are we not baring false witness when we differentiate and call others "Kafirs" without proper/clear evidence?
Hopefully we ,this generation and future generations will do Qoran more justice and study it properly so that we are "just and equitable" to all humans.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Believers dont reject any messenger<br>
4136 O you who believe; believe in God and His messenger, and the Book which was sent down to His messenger, and the Book which was sent before. And whoever rejects God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers, and the Last Day; then he has strayed a far straying.<br>
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4150 Those who rejected God and His messengers, and they want to make a separation between God and His messengers, and they say "We believe in some and reject some"; And they desire to take a path in-between.<br>
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4151 These are the true rejecters; and We have prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.<br>
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4152 And those who believe in God and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their recompense. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.<br> -
Peace Amra94.
GOD works with those who seek Him Alone with sincerity.
Where they are now is a start. GOD then softens their heart and guides them to the true belief.How can we believe all the messengers? Some messengers we are not told about and some we are?
GOD is saying to believe in all the messengers to those who" know for sure " the true ones and deliberately refuse to believe in them.
Has anyone checked who are the true messengers after Mohammed? Do those who claim to be believers now believe in all GOD s true messengers and have double checked the fake ones?
For example,here is a claim
http//submission.org/App2.htmlGOD Mercy is immense. GOD is the only one who knows the true believers. We concentrate on ourselves as far as the deen is concerned. We leave others to GOD s justice . We cannot call anyone who is peaceful towards us a "Kafir" . This is against the ethics of being righteous.
However if people want to label others ,it is their choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam,
I would like your input in this.
Throughout Quran, the terms "those who have submitted" (submitter), believer, hypocrite, rejecter and disbeliever.I have come to a preliminary conclusion (I need to study it more) that;
Submitter Opposite Rejecter
Believer Opposite Disbeliever
Between a submitter and rejecter is the hypocrite. A hypocrite is one who knows
but for whatever reason, ego, power, position, wealth, is a liar, fraud, impostor, charlatan
fearful, etc., Are hypocrites between submitter and rejecter or a separate category? hmmIt will look like this;
Believer
Submitter
Hypocrite
Rejecter
DisbelieverBasically, just as believer is more advanced than a submitter, a disbeliever is more advanced than a rejecter (they are worse than rejecters).
A disbeliever is someone who has read the Book and decided to disbelieve. So if a rejecter has read the Book and decided not to submit to God, he becomes a disbeliever. A believer who decides to reject becomes a disbeliever. Those who reject, but never read (or heard?) the Book, will remain rejecters Ignorant.THIS IS ALL PRELIMINARY
What do you think?
Salam
peace
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Peace,
A belivever has nothing to do with any religion, or the Qur'an as a book, the Qur'an is simply a guide nothing more, a believer is in action not in self delusion. a believer would show all around them a way to reason and so both be a believer and encourage the methods and practice of belief for others, a believer is in truth with reasoning, with passion and motive, give them cause to act, too love, to establish and show them how to determine reasoned conclusion, so they can achieve the best way to live in equitable balance themselves.
Giving them a functional example, through establishing substantive equity between all souls, and demonstrate how to live in harmony with creation, in order to comply with their own innate manifest nature. Ignoring that nature, that innate passion is slow annihilation of the soul. Never ignore what the heart pumps for. Mould your reality around your aspiration, not your aspirations around your reality.
And if that is achieved, if you manifest yourself as a believer in truth, if you function with passion and resolve; the soul that applies themselves and seeks truth, will evolve their soul, lifting the attributes of love, compassion, empathy and altruism, and so escape confusion, self-loathing; contempt for themselves, which is reflected in their attitude and action toward others souls and creation, and become what they were created to be.
Through that you will help others, saving them from suffering the loss, the heartache, the anguish, and torment most now endure. Truth is not well understood, lies are embraced passionately, and that reality dominates. So if a Muslim is a believer how few Muslims now exist! -
Peace Abdun Nur.
I certainly agree with this,quoteA belivever has nothing to do with any religion
Also I like what you say here,quote
a believer is in action not in self delusion. a believer would show all around them a way to reason and so both be a believer and encourage the methods and practice of belief for others, a believer is in truth with reasoning, with passion and motive, give them cause to act, too love, to establish and show them how to determine reasoned conclusion, so they can achieve the best way to live in equitable balance themselves.I would like to add that a believer should also show the good conduct and good deeds .
However ,A believer can attain different/higher grades with total submission and loyalty to GOD Alone. The connection with the Creator is the most important part to allow your spiritual self to grow into a complete believer . GOD s help and support is necessary.
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Amra,All.
This is a bit controversial,challenging but nevertheless needs some pondering.
Religions,misconceptions, what we are going through as humans since our creation is playing a part of where we are now,like now is playing a part of where we should aspire/ reach to in future.
It is no coincidence GOD has been sending us messengers,and it is no coincidence the majority stayed confused are still confused of "what is GOD s message"!!!!
Who knows how far into the future humans will start to grasp the "true message" that GOD,in his wisdom and knowledge kept sending and is patiently waiting for it to bear fruit/outcome/ with the majority (surah 110).We all assume that the messengers grasped the whole concept of the message and got things right? They tried their best,reached where GOD expected them to be ,but still more work needed to be done by the following generations to reach further and improve.
For example Jesus said to his disciples that he had many things to say to them but they cannot grasp them now (attitudes/mentality/knowledge of that era). Mohammed said that his people are going to abandon Qoran altogether. i.e completely change the message into another different religion.
What are we making of Qoran now? Yes still confused .
There is a new era of a generation that has a different mean( technology/internet/research...) and the "truth" will slowly be investigated. The "message " will take another direction.
We know now that Traditional Islam has turned GOD s message upside down."Uubudu Allah" has become " meaningless rituals/sayings/superstition"and "works/conduct/justice/reasoning..." have taken a back seat.
Only now we are starting to ponder Qoran to realise "Uubudu Allah" has nothing to do with rites,it means (my opinion) follow "GOD"-Alhaqq_which is GOD s deen(Kanoon) of justice,love,good conduct/deeds...all the good traits so that we attain "taqwa"" Laallakum tattakoon". i.e so that humans live together in unison (peace,love,compassion,using their reasoning/knowledge for the good...) .
The opposite of" Uubudu Allah" is "Taghut" (Corruption,hate,oppression,wars...etc)."Uubudu Allah" has nothing to do with GOD s needs. GOD is saying to us "Follow me so that you succeed" the opposite is follow"Taghut" (oppression,unjustice,corruption ...all the bad traits)which leads to our sufferring/demise/destruction. i.e nothing to do with GOD s needs at all. GOD does not need anything.
I will ,GOD willing say more in future. For now here are verses that need a lot of pondering
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We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall"Uubudu"God, and avoid "Taghut"." Subsequently, some were guided by God, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration ?There is no god except Me; you shall " Uubudu" me
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace Good logic,
there is no god (the foundation of Islam), and never couod be there is something far more interesting, a belief in the delusion of a god is again a self delusion, seeking a hierarchical master to remove the reasoning and truth of the self, instead of seeking to master reasoning and so the self, we are here to establish what we are given freely to begin with, the state of innocence.
Innocence is innate at birth and lost through nurture. innocence is established through vitues so moral conduct. Moral conduct is not established in, 'not doing immoral acts', but in actively doing moral ones. So not to murder is not moral, it is dispassionate, a non-action, it is nothing. To actively seek out a murderer and make them accountable for their wrong, establishing relief for both the victim and the wrong doer, is then a moral act.
Understanding what is moral makes it easier to see what is then, immoral. The soulless (psychopathic nature) have an immoral nature, which is a dichotomy to that of a soul, which has innately, a moral centre. The innate morals are known as virtues, each loving soul is created with these virtues, which forms innocence, but most choose to reject or suppress their true nature as they grow older for whatever reason.
I can explain what exists that is not a god and what virtues are if you want to know.
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Peace Abdun Nur.
Thank you for your post.
I am familiar with your views,efforts and good intentions.
However I happen to be certain there is a Creator. And that this Creator has sent us a message.For now,we have to agree to disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Good logic,
"certain" is an interesting term, if you're indeed certain, please provide your evidence for a "god" and the reasoning to apply such evidence to a conclusion of utter certainty of a "god"?
To claim certainty means you have both evidence and reasoning to apply such evidence to an irrefutable conclusion, so denoting certainty.
Or are you simply stating you have an unfounded dogmatic indoctrination, that requires neither evidence or reasoning to establish "certainty"?
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Peace Abdun Nur.
I mean I am certain for me. I have my solid proof for now.I am taking about my belief and my proof that Qoran is the message from my Creator.
Hope that clarifies for you. I am not claiming to have "proof/evidence" for others.
Like you have your own evidence for what you claim. At least I hope you do.
At the moment that is where my understanding is.
Although it may seem dogmatic for others, I have to be honest with myself and only change it to "a better understanding" according to what I can grasp as "better" from other reasonings.GOD bless you.
Peace.
