A must read - Answers many questions
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Salam everyone,
Brother Layth has written a very good article, and it answers many questions, including the question regarding the initialed chapters in the Quran. It's a must read.
https//free-minds.org/node/200
This knowledge is great blessing from God!
Salam
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yeh its a good work ,
i did a little experiment with the verses regarding jesus confusion in last two prominent monothiestic faiths
the muhkam(firm) verses are in chapter 3
355 God said, "O Jesus, I will terminate you, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected, until the day of Resurrection; then to Me is your return so I will judge between all of you in what you were disputing
3144 Muhammed is but a messenger, like many messengers that have passed before him. If he dies or gets killed, will you turn back on your heels? Whoever turns back on his heels, he will not harm God in the least. God will reward the thankful.
RED prophet muhammad (pbuh) was just a messenger like many others who assigned by God to deliever a message .. people who think (specially sunni) that he was from God light or he is alive and he can reach on their religious ceremony in dark are all conjecture this verse got a clear message to them..
GREEN all messengers before him passed away including jesus..
the (Mutashabih) verses are in chapter 4 in which different theories drive by different scholars of every sect..
4157-158 For their saying, "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
Instead, God raised him to Himself; and God is Noble, Wise.God knows best..
God bless you all -
Brother Layth has written a very good article, and it answers many questions, including the question regarding the initialed chapters in the Quran. It's a must read.
https//free-minds.org/node/200
"Could it simply be that all the 29 initialed chapters form the ?firm? verses of the Qur?an, while the remaining 85 chapters represent the ?similar/mutashabih? verses?"
Peace -- what's not firm about verses in ch 112?
1121 say he the god one
1122 the god the eternal
1123 not begets and not begotten
1124 and not be for him equal of one/anyoneLikewise what's not firm about verses in other chapters e.g. 1736 ?
https//s11.postimg.org/iz3o3mh03/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch17v35-46.jpg
In addition, if this is about numerology initials weren't counted as separate verses in earliest manuscripts like above.
37 he the one descends upon you the book from it signs/verses mu'kamtun/literal (i.e. taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory) they mother the book and other mutashbihtun/analogous it (i.e. comparable in certain respects) so as for the ones in hearts theirs deviation so following what tashbaha/seem alike from it pursues of l-fit'nati/the sedition and pursues of elucidation its and not knowledge elucidation its only the god and the firm being in the knowledge speaketh being believe we of in it each from near/with lord ours and not remembered except holders the knowledge
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peace all,
I read Shahrour's work referred to in the article, in the form of an article or in his book (I cant recall now), but I also recall it being very confusing to figure out what was quran and non-quran according to his theory, so I didn't give it much credibility. I also didn't find his other Quranic analysis compelling.
Re article
There are a number of issues with this article
- seems to have a fundamental misapplication of 37 because it explicitly states the decree/book (singular) contains muhkam and mutashabihat ayatin/verses/signs, i.e. both. But the article goes on to say "Which Book is Muhkam?
......one of these Books is the ?Muhkam Verses?"
Which is incorrect or poorly worded.
- Quote "Isn?t the Quran easy to understand (5417)? If so, then why would we think that there are parts of it that can be used to mislead?"
Because 226 explicitly says so "...He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked..."
Note the above is found in chapter 2, an alleged "firm/muhkam" chapter according to the article, yet it says it can misguide, potentially contradicting the findings of the article.
Chapter 2 has plenty of examples cited, which I assume the article's theory will have to claim these examples do not misguide, based on nothing but subjectivity.
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the author has translated "kutub" in 983 as "books" but it can also mean prescriptions/writings/decrees. For example "decrees" fits perfectly, unless evidence can be brought to the contrary.
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after citing the above verse it incorrectly states "The manuscript that the Prophet was reciting is described as being a compilation of ?books?." when in Arabic it is actually the plural "manuscripts" and there is no word for "compilation".
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article does not mention that immediately after in 984 it continues "AND not became divided those who were given the book (singular) until after..." so, if multiple alleged books, why does it use the singular and which singular book is this referring to?
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the following claim would require extensive study to confirm, IF it can ever be proven "Such reading transforms the meaning considerably as it means that there is ?another book? which does not include Sura/Chapter 2, and that such book is needed to guide the people who have advanced to become ?righteous/mutaqeen.?"
Does that also mean chapter 2 is doubtful because "that book (i.e. not Ch.2) has no doubt in it"? Note that this would contradict the article finding (i.e. that Ch.2 is a muhkam/firm chapter).
- After citing 4720 the article claims, quote "The Qur?an has identified for us one of the chapters that are ?firm,? and that is the chapter where warfare has been decreed for the believers."
No, the Arabic of 4720 actually says wherein the fighting/qital is mentioned/dhkr NOT using the word decreed/ktb (as used in 2216).
The same noun QiTaL is MENTIONED in other chapters, not just chapter 2
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl#(472013)8 ) the rest of the article is speculative and subjective (which is ironic as it mentions subjectivity being a problem), and would require a lot of study to determine consistency of such a theory.
- seems to have a fundamental misapplication of 37 because it explicitly states the decree/book (singular) contains muhkam and mutashabihat ayatin/verses/signs, i.e. both. But the article goes on to say "Which Book is Muhkam?
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I don't what you are talking about, but this article answers many questions that many members here, and sectarians, have been wondering and dismissed.
We now know what the initials are for!You're missing the point. For example,
ALM=Book of Wisdom
Book of Wisdom= Chapters 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
All these chapter together form the Book of Wisdom and they all have the ALM initials.Another example
HM= Book of Clarification (or Clarifying Book as per 432)
Book of Clarification= Chapters 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46 -
I don't what you are talking about, but this article answers many questions that many members here, and sectarians, have been wondering and dismissed.
We now know what the initials are for!You're missing the point. For example,
ALM=Book of Wisdom
Book of Wisdom= Chapters 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, 32.
All these chapter together form the Book of Wisdom and they all have the ALM initials.Peace, that is not consistent -- which book is exactly which and which initials ALM or ALR?
21 alif lam meem such the book not doubt in it guidance for the righteous
31 alif lam meem the god not deity except he the alive the sustainer of all
291 alif lam meem do calculate the humankind that left they of that speaketh they of believe we of and they not tested being
301 alif lam meem triumph (they) the romans311 alif lam meem those signs the book the wise
101 alif lam ra those signs the book the wise
121 alif lam ra those signs the book the clear
321 alif lam meem revelation the book not doubt in it from lord the world?s inhabitants
Likewise initials were not counted as separate verses in earliest manuscript...
https//s3.postimg.org/5rrcilos3/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch31v33-ch32v5.jpg
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Salam/Peace,
Dear Noon
The meaning of 'muhkam/firm' does not mean clear or unambiguous as I believe your post is referring to. It is simply the state of these verses that they are 'sealed/firmed' by virtue of the author.
As for the initials not being separated by verse stops in some of the older copies of the Qur'an (though the copy you are using is not that old). That was never placed as a criteria as we can see in various manuscripts that the verse stops differ in their count (hence the large difference between the count of verses in Hafs and Warsh).
Regards,
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Salam/Peace,
Dear Wakas
Does that also mean chapter 2 is doubtful because "that book (i.e. not Ch.2) has no doubt in it"? Note that this would contradict the article finding (i.e. that Ch.2 is a muhkam/firm chapter).
You are still thinking of 'firm' as clear and 'mutashabih' as ambiguous. It is not the meanings given.
After citing 4720 the article claims, quote "The Qur?an has identified for us one of the chapters that are ?firm,? and that is the chapter where warfare has been decreed for the believers."
No, the Arabic of 4720 actually says wherein the fighting/qital is mentioned/dhkr NOT using the word decreed/ktb (as used in 2216).
The same noun QiTaL is MENTIONED in other chapters, not just chapter 2
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl#(472013)"And those who believe say "If only a chapter is sent down!" But when a firm chapter is sent down, and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those who have a disease in their hearts look at you, as if death had already come to them. It thus revealed them." (Qur'an 4720)
Please read the verse carefully. When this 'firm' chapter comes with 'qital/fighting', those who harbor a disease in their hearts look at the prophet as if death has already come to them....The only verse where 'qital/fighting' was decreed as a command is 2216, whereas all other occurrences are either to relate a story or to mention the act (nothing that would make people reveal their fear as if death is upon them).
the rest of the article is speculative and subjective (which is ironic as it mentions subjectivity being a problem), and would require a lot of study to determine consistency of such a theory.
That is a good start as any )
Regards,
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Peace All.
I commend all those who strive with Qoran.
However,the deviations are many and the priorities are still not right.We have not got the basics right.
Qoran keeps repeating the "straight path"(our conduct here as humans) and calls it "Wisdom",like the wisdom of Luqman,Abraham.Yes concentrating on the simple message of Qoran . Upholding the "straight path" -like justice,helping others,living as a unit family,being "GOD conscious" and upholding high morals(love,honesty,good thoughts,trust,...) all the qualities required /instructed by GOD( Al-Haqq) that keeps us from being destructive and fighting each other.
These are the basics that we need to highlight and preach . "Straighten up each individual so that the whole community is straight and in harmony" .This clear(no ambiguity whatsoever in it) message is the basic that will set up the agenda of GOD s Deen.
For example the "Muslim" countries have millions of facilities for teaching hadiths and reciting (yes,parroting,sorry to say so) Qoran,but not one institution/facility to ponder/investigate Qoran . It is almost as they are afraid for their people to come across its treasure of knowledge.
So,why should we not turn the so called "Islam" religion upside down( and put as its head the most important pillars
Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone.
Justice.
Honesty.
Trust.
Help and care.
Well being of the brothers and sisters.
Family/community health (environment,self and social)
Good works and good morals.These must be fundamentals before any of what Muslims call worship rituals. This will turn the Deen into a "straight path".
"Kuntum Khaira Ummatin..."Applied for a few years when the prophet was alive,then Shayateen took over!!!!We have proof of that in Qoran;" Innaka Mayitun Wa Innahum Mayitoon, Thumma Innakum Yawma Alqiyamati Takhtasimoon" i.e you will die(Prophet" and they will die(Those who took over after you-Traditional Islam-) then on the day of judgement you will "Takhtasinmoom"( Argue/disagree/be opposites). Yes the prophet will clearly be against his umma.
For me the questions discussed here are not the priority.They may even be irrelevant if we do not recognise the clear "straight path" from Qoran
My take and comment on this issue.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
peace Layth,
Unanswered points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
I simply used "firm" because that is what the article used. You now seem to suggest "sealed" as a meaning despite it not being mentioned in the article, and that would imply mutashabih as "unsealed". Seems odd to me.
...whereas all other occurrences are either to relate a story or to mention the act (nothing that would make people reveal their fear as if death is upon them).
Not so sure about that
3167
...And that He might make evident those who are hypocrites. For it was said to them, "Come, fight in the way of Allah...472
...So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter...475
...And what is with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah...
etc
etc
etcThat is a good start as any
I haven't studied the initialled chapters and their significance if any but bro Ayman's theory seemed reasonable to me when I read it. Some of it can be read here
https//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/language.htm -
Salam/Peace,
Dear Noon
The meaning of 'muhkam/firm' does not mean clear or unambiguous as I believe your post is referring to. It is simply the state of these verses that they are 'sealed/firmed' by virtue of the author.
Peace Layth, have it thus...
37 ... signs/verses mu'kamtun/literal (i.e. taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory) they mother the book and other mutashbihtun/analogous (i.e. comparable in certain respects)
regardless no answer to prior comments; which book is which and which initials ALM or ALR?
311 alif lam meem those signs the book the wise
101 alif lam ra those signs the book the wise
121 alif lam ra those signs the book the clearAs for the initials not being separated by verse stops in some of the older copies of the Qur'an (though the copy you are using is not that old). That was never placed as a criteria as we can see in various manuscripts that the verse stops differ in their count (hence the large difference between the count of verses in Hafs and Warsh).
Any examples older manuscripts? The one posted is very old initials clearly not numbered.
201 ta ha (no end verse marks) ...
202 not descends we of upon you the Qur?an that thou agonizeMA VI 165 ch 1736 - ch 3655 (~25% Qur'an) dated 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165https//s3.postimg.org/c6otolncj/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch19v97-ch20v16.jpg
Likewise even older Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspxhttps//s30.postimg.org/kclqz8201/Birmingham_Quran_ch19v93-ch20v13.jpg
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yesterday i just looked it quickly i did a very little experiment once agian this time it did not works
i.e the creation of heavens and earth in 6 periods/era/days/youm mention in quran in these occasions
754 (with initials)
103 (with initials)
117 (with initials)
2559 (without the initials)
324 (with initials)
5038 (with initials)
574 (without the initials)so we cant say its a definate theory , cross checking may lead further inconsistencies..
although thats the good start to look from the creation of heavens and earth as simple experiment..God bless you all..
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Salam Imran,
Not sure I understand the 6 day argument. Can you please expand.
Regards,
Layth
I think his method is to check for key words or phrases that are highly repetitive through Quran and check whether the initials for the chapter in which they are found correlate.
By checking for six sittati sin ta ta he found 7 occurrences dispersed through The Reading and his idea is to see if all the chapters related have initials.
I assume this is his experimental design... -
Salam Imran,
Not sure I understand the 6 day argument. Can you please expand.
Regards,
Layth
salam layth,
actually i was reading that article and in the end you represented some interesting experiment to check from your first point let say the first point about our creation
This brief study has, God willing, shown that the Qur?an is a collection of ?Books,? and that two of these books, the ?Muhkam? and the ?Mutashabih,? can be identified very easily by the prefix that begins each chapter.
What this means from a theological point of view is that the general population that is seeking the religion of Islam/Submission can be content with following the rules and guidelines and taking lessons from the stories and narrations contained with the 29 chapters of the ?Book of Wisdom/Clarity?. The implications of which can be highlighted as follows
The story of our creation and journey to Earth is addressed in detail (229-39)
and i make similar approach to check the creation of heavens and earth where God used time period and all of them have chapters with initials and chapters without initials..
out of which one verse appears to me as "mushtibah" but its in chapter with initials .. this one..
117 He is the One who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water; so as to test who from among you works the best. And when you say "You will be resurrected after the death," those who have rejected say "This is but clear magic!"
although numbers of 6 stages/period/youm itself a methaphorcial approach which appear in 7 occasions
i m not sure i m still able to make you undertstand or no
or perhaps i understand it wrong what you trying to say in the end of the article.God bless you
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I think his method is to check for key words or phrases that are highly repetitive through Quran and check whether the initials for the chapter in which they are found correlate.
By checking for six sittati sin ta ta he found 7 occurrences dispersed through The Reading and his idea is to see if all the chapters related have initials.
I assume this is his experimental design...peace hp tech,
i want to add i just used 6 youm as an experiment,there are plantey of material to test in the scripture. it was just an example like i took the understanding of jesus confusion in my first post ..
so in some areas its working in some areas its not..
God bless you
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Peace Wakas,
Unanswered points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
I noted these points. They are mainly observations on the wording of the article.
- article does not mention that immediately after in 984 it continues "AND not became divided those who were given the book (singular) until after..." so, if multiple alleged books, why does it use the singular and which singular book is this referring to?
It is not the article that is claiming that the Qur'an is a 'collection of books', but the Qur'an itself which says
?A messenger from God reciting purified scripts. In them are valuable books. (Qur?an 982-3)
Al-Kitaab can refer to any manuscript which is 'written' (regardless of its content/length)
"And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the interim in the book is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (2235)
Also, I would point out that God calls "the best narrative" as "a book that is comparable/mutashabih" (so the term Muhkam book and Mutashabig book is possible)
"God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is comparable, but dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.(3923)
Going back to your point on 984, "which Book" is this referring to that the people became divided after receiving it? (most likely, these are the recipients of the Book of the righteous as they are described further in 985).
I simply used "firm" because that is what the article used. You now seem to suggest "sealed" as a meaning despite it not being mentioned in the article, and that would imply mutashabih as "unsealed". Seems odd to me.
If the English is causing a problem, then use 'Muhkam' when referring to the verse to visualize its meaning. It could be that 'firm' is giving the wrong connotation if you or others are still reading it as 'clear vs ambiguous'. I will look into better English renditions for this.
Regards,
