Quran Classification
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Peace,
and now i'm remembering why i stopped posting on this forum, religion drives all reason from the soul and makes babbling fools, sad but true, I'll leave you to your insane religious rantings, sorry to disturb the still pond of your stagnant thinking, still no reasoning souls on here aadly. Peace and goodbye.
Hah what an ignorant hypocrite GOH
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and now i'm remembering why i stopped posting on this forum, religion drives all reason from the soul and makes babbling fools, sad but true, I'll leave you to your insane religious rantings, sorry to disturb the still pond of your stagnant thinking, still no reasoning souls on here aadly. Peace and goodbye.
@Abdun Nur please don't be harsh on others who do not perceive things as you do. Don't belittle them. It's sad to me because I know Good Logic is a good person.
If you want to discuss certain things you can go to MoF's forum, where you can also find me as 'cerulean'.
Having said what you said, I'm quite interested to hear what you have to say.
Goodbye. -
Peace brothers and sisters.
To all those who left,those who are still here , those who will come ,and to all the peaceful humans out there
Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent.
.... You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.Disagreements,religions,labels...etc should be " demolished" as barriers between people.
I have hope that Qoran will be our tool to do that .
I love you all and pray that GOD will bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace Amra94.
GOD works with those who seek Him Alone with sincerity.
Where they are now is a start. GOD then softens their heart and guides them to the true belief.How can we believe all the messengers? Some messengers we are not told about and some we are?
GOD is saying to believe in all the messengers to those who" know for sure " the true ones and deliberately refuse to believe in them.
Has anyone checked who are the true messengers after Mohammed? Do those who claim to be believers now believe in all GOD s true messengers and have double checked the fake ones?
For example,here is a claim
http//submission.org/App2.htmlGOD Mercy is immense. GOD is the only one who knows the true believers. We concentrate on ourselves as far as the deen is concerned. We leave others to GOD s justice . We cannot call anyone who is peaceful towards us a "Kafir" . This is against the ethics of being righteous.
However if people want to label others ,it is their choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace
I thought 381 is talking about Muhammad. I mean Quran says it confirms previous scriptures and supersedes them. If it supersedes previous scriptures it doesnt need to be confirmed by a messenger hmm -
Peace Amra94.
Thanks for replying,quoteI thought 381 is talking about Muhammad. I mean Quran says it confirms previous scriptures and supersedes them. If it supersedes previous scriptures it doesnt need to be confirmed by a messenger
Two points
1- It cannot be Mohammed,because Mohammed is taking the Covenant/pledge with the Nabis
337Recall that we took from the prophets their covenant, including you ( Mohammed), Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn pledge.
It must be about a different messenger?2- Qoran supersedes other scriptures and confirms them,however GOD said Messengers among you will keep coming.Mohammed was the last Nabi and a messenger of GOD
3340Mohammed was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of God and the final prophet. God is fully aware of all things.
GOD could have said "final messenger" but did not.There is a very good reason in the context of Qoran.( GOD s religion keeps being corrupted by humans.)
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Amra94.
Thanks for replying,quoteI thought 381 is talking about Muhammad. I mean Quran says it confirms previous scriptures and supersedes them. If it supersedes previous scriptures it doesnt need to be confirmed by a messenger
Two points
1- It cannot be Mohammed,because Mohammed is taking the Covenant/pledge with the Nabis
337Recall that we took from the prophets their covenant, including you ( Mohammed), Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn pledge.
It must be about a different messenger?2- Qoran supersedes other scriptures and confirms them,however GOD said Messengers among you will keep coming.Mohammed was the last Nabi and a messenger of GOD
3340Mohammed was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of God and the final prophet. God is fully aware of all things.
GOD could have said "final messenger" but did not.There is a very good reason in the context of Qoran.( GOD s religion keeps being corrupted by humans.)
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Here are my two points
1)Stop writing your own sketchy translations. It does not say was a messenger. There is no indication of an indefinite noun. Also you translate kana as was when it doesn't go with the context and flow of the passages only to suit your agenda. Have you become of the dishonest?
2)Just because 3340 is about Muhammad doesn't mean 381 does not include him.
In fact, 381 is speaking about all messengers in general, any messenger sent by God has to be believed and helped. It is not exclusive to Muhammad. In fact look at the following passages up to 85. Especially 84 and 85. It is clear that this covenant includes all messengers. 381-85 is reminding the people of the book about their covenant and duty to believe in all messengers indiscriminately. Which they weren't of course at the time most among the hadu rejected Isa and Muhammad, while most the nasara embraced Isa (making a distinction between him and other messengers) and denied Muhammad.Why can't you just be honest with yours?lf and admit you're wrong, bias and sometimes manipulative with your explanations?
Why can't you read in context and use your reason?
How dare you lie and say 381 isn't about the messenger, with no concrete explanation but your biased desire to claim messengership to rashad khalifa?Stop Enough.
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381-85 is reminding the people of the book about their covenant and duty to believe in all messengers indiscriminately. Which they weren't of course at the time most among the hadu rejected Isa and Muhammad, while most the nasara embraced Isa (making a distinction between him and other messengers) and denied Muhammad.
Yeah this makes sense. Not exlusively about Muhammad but all of God's messengers.
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Peace HP_TECH
So your explanation is better ? In that case you carry on,I will not ask you to stop. I failed to see any evidence why?
However,I am not claiming anything , It is my take on what Qoran is claiming.
Give your take on the verses if you think it is claiming different,then leave it to whoever wants to check . They are capable of doing the same as you and me.
Or what is the matter ? Remember the truth does not need defending from either one of us.Oh, I have no agenda. No agenda can ever defeat GOD s plan and purpose.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
2- Qoran supersedes other scriptures and confirms them,however GOD said Messengers among you will keep coming.Mohammed was the last Nabi and a messenger of GOD
3340Mohammed was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of God and the final prophet. God is fully aware of all things.
GOD could have said "final messenger" but did not.There is a very good reason in the context of Qoran.( GOD s religion keeps being corrupted by humans.)
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a messenger and prophet is. Whether or not all messengers are prophets..
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Peace HP_TECH
To summarise for you where I stand with my current "label" if you like.
I could be a believer( I would like to be one,I even call myself one!!!) I would love to be a "true one"?
I could be a "Kafir". Anyone of the many types. I will come to this later.
I could be a "Mounafik". Certainly I am afraid I am one sometimes.
I could be a "Mushrik". So I claim most of the time I am not one,but I fear to be one on occasions?....And the list goes on.
I am afraid for myself because Qoran has taught me not to "Tozaqqui" myself. We are warned as "Ya-Aayuha Lladina Aaamun...Be careful...Do not lie...Do not ...You name it ,GOD has warned us against it(All the bad)...Yet I cannot guarantee anything, each day that goes by ,I am fearful of what I might be?Who can call themselves a "true Mumin" without being fearful that they might turn any of the others?
So do not go there brother,!!!Again I repeat to you , to me and others,let us work hard on ourselves and ponder Qoran deeply.
God has certainly told us that the ones who claimed to be "Mumeneen" with the prophet were "Kafirs", mounafiks,mushrikeen,...
Yet the prophet knew that GOD alone is their judge . Some of them were only known by GOD. GOD said some have mixed good works with bad works may be GOD will forgive them.
Do you think you and i are so clever to be knowledgeable of most peoples deep convictions?You still do not get my drift?
GOD bless you brother.
Peace. -
The fact that you felt the need to clarify further anything, indicates to me that you know you can do better.
Think further and ponder more brother and seek Allah's guidance humbly. Do not presume you know.Stop pretending like you do not know what a believer is GL. You know very well what the difference is. You are only afraid to admit that those near you may not be believers. We all have those near us who maybe deny the Signs of God or live according to their desires, but that does not mean that we should attempt in defending them or making excuses for them. If we truly care for them we wouldn't encourage them to keep in their ways but we would advise them toward the truth.
You cannot guide those you love and cannot protect them from God either.
You are absolutely wrong in denying that the distinction is clear Allah tells us clearly over and over what the differences are. This does not mean that we need to be hostile, but it is evident to those who have eyes.
You are blinded by your love for your family. Do you love your family more than you love Allah?
In the attempt of trying to make excuses for your loved ones you have spread misconceptions, falsehood and misinterpretations about the deen and you have concealed the truth knowingly! Your actions are serious. I advise you to desist GL.
One does not "Tozaqqui" themselves by simply being able to make a distinction between a believer and a disbeliever.
Your premise is false.My advocating that there is a recognizable difference between believers among us or the righteous among us and the disbelievers among us is not ascribing purity to myself or anyone. It is an inherent ability for those who can see.
Those who cannot see or choose not to see because they want to pretend that their loved ones are not definite disbelievers are in the wrong.97-11
-How can (there) be for the polytheists a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger, except those (with) whom you made a near Al-Masjid Al-Haraam? So long as they are upright to you then you be upright to them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous.
-How while, if they gain dominance over you they do not regard (the ties) with you (of) kinship and not covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths but refuse, their hearts and most of them (are) defiantly disobedient.
-They exchange the Verses of Allah (for) a little price, and they hinder (people) from His way. Indeed, evil (is) what they used to do.
-Not they respect (the ties) towards a believer (of) kinship and not covenant of protection. And those (are) the transgressors.
-But if they repent and establish the prayer and give the zakah, then (they are) your brothers in religion. And We explain in detail the Verses for a people (who) know.Here those who were with prophet were told specifically the characteristics necessary for them to recognize brethren in the deen.
2432
And marry the single among you and the righteous among your male slaves, and your female slaves. If they are poor, Allah will enrich them from His Bounty. And Allah (is) All-Encompassing, All-Knowing.Here those who were with the prophet are instructed marry the righteous among their servants. Do you think, they needed to sit down and contemplate wildly about these simply instructions as you are trying to suggest we should?
Preposterous!4915
Only the believers (are) those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, then (do) not doubt but strive with their wealth and their lives in (the) way (of) Allah. Those (are) the truthful."Do they deny the existence of The God? Do they deny His Messenger (in this case Muhammad)?
Then they are simply not believers. And your mouth cannot change that no matter how much you love them.
Is it possible that Allah could change this if He willed it? Yes of course! He is the Doer of what He intends! But as for now they are simply not.82-4
Only the believers (are) those who when Allah is mentioned feel fear their hearts, and when are recited to them His Verses, they increase them (in) faith, and upon their Lord they put their trust.
Those who establish the prayer and out of what We have provided them they spend.
Those - they are the believers (in) truth. For them (are) ranks with their Lord and forgiveness and a provision noble.Again despite your constant denial here we have clear verses explicating the characteristics of believers.
231-10
Indeed, successful (are) the believers
Those who during their prayers (are) humbly submissive,
Those who from the vain talk turn away,
Those who of purification works (are) doers,
And those who of their modesty (are) guardians
Except from their spouses or what they rightfully possess then indeed, they (are) not blameworthy.
Then whoever seeks beyond that then those (are) the transgressors.
And those who of their trusts and their promise(s) (are) observers
And those who over their salawatihim they guard
Those (are) the inheritors
Who will inherit the Paradise. They therein (will) abide forever.Again clear descriptions for those who have eyes to see with, ears to hear with and a heart to understand.
If you fit the descriptions then you are a believer there is nothing wrong in one affirming their faith and recognition of the truth and supporting those who also have recognized the actuality. Claiming to have faith or be among those who believe/acknowledge the truth is far from claiming to be pure or exalting oneself. Why should one fear to claim they have faith or acknowledge? That is not boasting nor being arrogant.
We are also told that4133
And who (is) better (in) speech than (one) who invites to Allah and does righteous (deeds) and says, "Indeed, I am of those who submit?"Furthermore, believer is a general term and encompasses many terms. It is however, NOT a rank or degree of purity. That is your misconception. This is what you should prove to make the argument you are trying to.
2)God has certainly told us that the ones who claimed to be "Mumeneen" with the prophet were "Kafirs", mounafiks,mushrikeen,...
Please cite the verse before making such a grandiose claim. It is completely taken out of context. Here is part of the passage coincidentally including the one I have cited above.
4914-16
Say the Bedouins, "We believe." Say, "Not you believe; but say, "We have submitted," and has not yet entered the faith in your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger, not He will deprive you of your deeds anything. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Only the believers (are) those who believe in Allah and His Messenger, then (do) not doubt but strive with their wealth and their lives in (the) way (of) Allah. Those (are) the truthful."
Say, "Will you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows what (is) in the heavens and what (is) in the earth. And Allah of every thing (is) All-Knower."This was commanded to be spoken to a group of the hypocrites among the community of the believers.
To state that this was commanded to be spoken to those who claim to be mumeen in general is a grave misconception and misrepresentation of facts. Maybe you need to revisit your study of the Quran because you attempting to recall verses by memory and misrepresenting facts for readers is more compromising than anyone who is sincere claiming to be a believer.We are warned as "Ya-Aayuha Lladina Aaamun...Be careful...Do not lie...Do not ...You name it ,GOD has warned us against it(All the bad)...Yet I cannot guarantee anything, each day that goes by ,I am fearful of what I might be?
This has nothing to do with someone being able to recognize a believer from a disbeliever or considering themselves a believer. A believer is simply one who claims to have faith and submits (aslam).
Who can call themselves a "true Mumin" without being fearful that they might turn any of the others?
So do not go there brother,!!!I currently regard believer as a synonym of muslim. If you can call yourself a muslim why could you not call yourself a believer?
If one calls himself a believer it is not boasting nor waxing it is an admission of their faith in my current opinion and understanding.Also you should always be fearful. For the Messengers were also and did not know what their fate would be.
Again I repeat to you , to me and others,let us work hard on ourselves and ponder Qoran deeply.
In what possible way, am I preventing in you from doing what you do? Don't be melodramatic here, nor victimize yourself nor attempt to bring others into this.
You cannot speak for everyone else, speak for yourself. If you are in need of it then work on YOURSELF and ponder deeply.
Peace GL
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Peace HP_TECH
You say,quote A believer is simply one who claims to have faith and submits (aslam).
You know this contradicts most of your posts that you think are good replies to what is "Mumin" ,why?
Because claiming to have faith is what ? Then you will have the problem of which members of all the religions that exist are submitting?
Your definition of righteous is a misconception!!! Look again in your Qoran. You will be surprised to find ,and I am going to give one example,then leave you pondering at the same rate as you expect me to ponder or even more. Here we go( You have shown you are good at finding verses numbers,it also helps the pondering)
Qoran "...Wa Ani Uubuduni ,Hada Siratun Mustaqueem". So "Uubudu Allah" is the Sirat Al Mustaqueem. Now what is Al-Sirat Al Mustaqueem?
Other verses( I will list them underneath one by one)
"...GOD possesses the most powerful argument,if He willed He could guide you all""Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
"You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity. You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means. You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives. You shall fulfill your covenant with God. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed".
Now comes what the verses I quoted define for you
"This is My path - a straight one. You shall follow it, and do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from His path. These are His commandments to you, that you may be saved".
Yes brother"...Wa anna hada Sirati Mustaqueeman, Fa Attabihuhu.." And you will be saved.GOD did not forget to add other things here or list any rituals or any other commandments that entail the minimum to be saved.
You keep saying let us not say what Qoran does not say. So I agree.What you argue in your post is a confusion and a misunderstanding of the whole context of what GOD is really saying to "Al Naas". Remember Qoran is for "Al Aalameen" not just those who monopolise it and call everyone else "Kafir".
Repent brother and save yourself first.. I do the same same ,others including each one of my family do the same.GOD judges His deen,not you.me or anyone else.
I will go slow and stop here to allow both of us to ponder more.
GOD bless you.
Peace.