Note on 4:34 and Sam Gerrans.
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Why would one want to argue? It is futile for both,back and forth waste of time!
GOD has thrown the truth at falsehood, Truth will prevail regardless of arguments.
Today ,we are only starting ( thanks to "wait,I am also waiting" strong argument of GOD in Qoran) to decipher what Qoran is really saying to us. For example what is "Madda Al Ard"? What is "Yukawwiru Al-Layl Ala Al-Nahar"? What is "...Illa Li-Yaabuduni...!"?....etc
I am going to go off subject here just for few sentences to show that our understanding has got to change if we are sincere about pondering Qoran,here is a basic example
For centuries we were told "Uububu Allah" means serve/ worship( I myself leant towards these for a while!). i.e the rituals? Well they are far far away from the truth of Qoran.
If we ponder Qoran we find all people are "Ibad Al-rahman" and there are different types."Wama Khalktu...Illa Li-Yabuduni" Cannot mean serve/ worship GOD, because GOD explains it elsewhere in Qoran as "Sirat Al-Muataquim"
"...Wa Ani Uubuduni, Hada Siratun Muataqueem". I will be short here and get to the meaning of "Sirat Al Muataqueem,which means "right conduct/behaviour/morals" which has to come by our choice from the freedom given by GOD. Remember Shaitan does not give us any freedom,he insists on his way(taghut) .
So GOD is saying I created the Jinn and humans only to give them the freedom of choice .Only to give them the choice of My (GOD s) system "Sirat Al Mustaqueem".The rites?rituals are "the help needed " to succeed. "Iyaaka Naabudu Wa Iyyaka Nastaiinu" clears the two "Naabudu" means "by our right conduct and "Nastaiinu" means by rituals we seek your help because of our love for GOD and His system.
So "Naabudu" has nothing to do with worship or service or rituals in the context of all the verses in QoranGOD willing,I will open a thread to discuss this in detail and many other "misconceptions" that have been fed to us for centuries about GOD s message.
For now I apologise for some off topic here .
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Oh ,we have gone off topic here discussing the shape of the earth.
This young lady has something to say,I said similar about our earth in many topics here
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDSTdZ3YbtwThis is also futile , not important the shape of the earth. The shape of our "sirat" is very important . Is it "straight"?( Mustaqueem)
GOD bless.
Peace. -
So all these THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of employees, from cleaning ladies to military advisers to engineers to operators and so on, they ALL are there just to conspire and nobody since the 1950's has not yet confessed, i.e. released a single video confession? Not to mention there are space companies in Russia, India and China, and there are a lot of employees too and none yet gave their confession since the beggining of all this? Brilliant bravo
Peace,
Because there are thousands of employees during the space show, eh? There is something called restricted access in an environment like theirs. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion053.gif20105 And they ask you about the mountains, so say "My Lord will annihilate them completely."
20106 "Then He will leave it as a smooth plain."
20107 "You will not see in it any crookedness or curves."
This perfectly tells you how God will make it evident that the Earth is flat on the Day, by destroying the mountains.20108 On that Day, they will follow the caller, there is no crookedness to him. And all voices will be humbled for the Almighty, you will not be able to hear except whispers.
There is no crookedness/curvity/unevenness in God's creation.If you try to say that the Earth is round at present time, and that it'll be flat in the future.. you're suggesting that God has to change His creation of Earth from round to flat.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know.The large numbers supporting the pseudoscience, will result to nothing.
0745 "The ones who repel from the path of God, and sought to make it crooked; and regarding the Hereafter they were rejecters."
0748 And the people standing on the elevated platform called on men they recognized by their features, they said "What good did your large number do for you, or what you were arrogant for?"1801 Praise be to God who has sent down the Book to His servant, and He has not made in it any crookedness.
Crookedness of the shape of the earth, but not His Book.. yeah right. No crookedness anywhere in God's creation.Indeed, Earth is flat. Praise be to God, Lord of the worlds. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/bonheur.gif
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Because there are thousands of employees during the space show, eh? There is something called restricted access in an environment like theirs.
What are you talking about? There is not a single industry where workers don't know what is happening on the jobs. Try working somewhere outside of your own home. And again, my concern is still relevant, since the beggining of space projects in late 50's not a single austranaut/military serviceman associated with space projects/workers in the indusry/cleaning ladies/accountants/you name it did CONFESS to the public that they were staging flights all these years.
There is quite a bit of information about the moonlanding hoax and that casts some serious doubts, given the 2001 A Space Odyssey movie which aired just few months before Apollo 11. And given the atmosphere of the Cold War that could be possible . But that does not prove nonexistance of space expeditions as a whole, again where are the confessions of the "stage actors" and thousands of other people involved? There are a lot of confessions of drug dealers who confess not because they are wanted by the police but because of their conscience so that they turn away from this lifestyle and convert to some religion. Where is the conscience, which is still a big factor in our decision-making, of all these NASA 'space actors' over all these years?
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What are you talking about? There is not a single industry where workers don't know what is happening on the jobs. Try working somewhere outside of your own home. And again, my concern is still relevant, since the beggining of space projects in late 50's not a single austranaut/military serviceman associated with space projects/workers in the indusry/cleaning ladies/accountants/you name it did CONFESS to the public that they were staging flights all these years.
There is quite a bit of information about the moonlanding hoax and that casts some serious doubts, given the 2001 A Space Odyssey movie which aired just few months before Apollo 11. And given the atmosphere of the Cold War that could be possible . But that does not prove nonexistance of space expeditions as a whole, again where are the confessions of the "stage actors" and thousands of other people involved? There are a lot of confessions of drug dealers who confess not because they are wanted by the police but because of their conscience so that they turn away from this lifestyle and convert to some religion. Where is the conscience, which is still a big factor in our decision-making, of all these NASA 'space actors' over all these years?
Peace,
You're waiting for a confession? Come on my man, the second an engineer involved in some matter of a space programme comes through, you call it a conspirary theory movement. Be truthful to yourself.Drug dealers are wanted by the Police/Government. Space programmes such as NASA are backed by the Government and not wanted by the police.
Space folk get praised from most people, drug dealers on the other hand don't. The stigma in being a drug dealer affects their daily life events such as dating etc. The uncertainty of drug dealers being killed during drug exchanges. The consequences are heavy for the drug dealers.
Unleash your determination to seek for the truth. What we've been taught in school isn't always the truth.
Be free.http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion021.gif -
Peace,
You're waiting for a confession? Come on my man, the second an engineer involved in some matter of a space programme comes through, you call it a conspirary theory movement. Be truthful to yourself.Drug dealers are wanted by the Police/Government. Space programmes such as NASA are backed by the Government and not wanted by the police.
Space folk get praised from most people, drug dealers on the other hand don't. The stigma in being a drug dealer affects their daily life events such as dating etc. The uncertainty of drug dealers being killed during drug exchanges. The consequences are heavy for the drug dealers.
Unleash your determination to seek for the truth. What we've been taught in school isn't always the truth.
Be free.http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion021.gifNope if that person was actually in space people would listen. They probably would, in such a case, try to present some evidence of him being drunk or whatnot, but people would listen. I would. And there are none of those cases.
Regarding the drug dealers, as I said, there are cases when criminals simply quit their lifestyle for reasons other than threat of being prosecuted, such as their conscience. Or, they can be prosecuted and later quit their lifestyle for good . And later they speak out how awful such lifestyle was. What about austranauts who lost their contracts? Why would not they try to take revenge on NASA and confess?
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What about austranauts who lost their contracts? Why would not they try to take revenge on NASA and confess?
Peace,
How do you know that they are not being provided for?
Do you understand the magnitude of money, that space programmes get?This is also futile , not important the shape of the earth. The shape of our "sirat" is very important . Is it "straight"?( Mustaqueem)
GOD bless.
Peace.Peace,
A straight path is flat, without a curve or a bend.http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion001.gif -
Peace Faith.
It is not fair to stay off topic here. So a new thread will be the best option to discuss the shape of the earth,even though,for me ,there is nothing left to discuss . The earth ,like all the other planets and stars are the same shape,spherical.Well established ,even with binoculars and observatories( especially the fake ones!!!).
Now,the human being is honored with the blessings of the hearing, the eyesight and the brain - three vital devices to observe, analyze, reflect, connect and react to God's creation and proofs.
God also provided us in Quran with lessons and arguments based on reasoning and critical & logical thinking to assist us witnessing His signs and reaching sound judgments & conclusions.
The common foundation and logical approach of all arguments is this NOTHING AFTER THE TRUTH EXCEPT FALSEHOOD. Presenters of either the truth or falsehood have THE BURDEN OF PROOF. The truth will always be verifiable and will always stand high, shiny & non-negotiable while it will always be impossible to prove falsehood.
Who claimed first,in this thread ,what the shape of the earth is?
Over to you,but please open a new thread and state your proof/s. I will gladly join your conversation.
In this thread ,however,it is not fair on those discussing another subject.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
How do you know that they are not being provided for?
Do you understand the magnitude of money, that space programmes get?I do understand yet it does not explain my concern over the lack of confessions despite hundreds and thousands of employees not only in NASA but other states involved in space projects. And space programs were developed for decades now.
You've already hijacked this thread. I ask you once again to start your own topic or continue flatearthism in the threads already established prior.
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I actually think Gerrans notes on 434 make sense (note that I actually do find his personality and opinions abhorrent, but his translation is good) and his reasoning makes sense - the tl;dr version being that the process of reconciliation in a marriage is fully understood by both parties, along with provisions for divorce. I still don't really agree that it should render as "beat" in English, but were one to accept "beat" then the reasoning Gerrans gives is reasonable. Though I am also confused as to how he came to the conclusion that it was "beat" and not any of the other values. I feel like it's just contrarianism on his part. Either way, his argument was novel enough to warrant consideration.
(Also, are people here arguing about the Earth being round vs. flat? Please don't engage with Flat Earthers. If a lifetime of education has failed them, an internet forum won't fix that.)
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I actually think Gerrans notes on 434 make sense (note that I actually do find his personality and opinions abhorrent, but his translation is good) and his reasoning makes sense - the tl;dr version being that the process of reconciliation in a marriage is fully understood by both parties, along with provisions for divorce. I still don't really agree that it should render as "beat" in English, but were one to accept "beat" then the reasoning Gerrans gives is reasonable. Though I am also confused as to how he came to the conclusion that it was "beat" and not any of the other values. I feel like it's just contrarianism on his part. Either way, his argument was novel enough to warrant consideration.
(Also, are people here arguing about the Earth being round vs. flat? Please don't engage with Flat Earthers. If a lifetime of education has failed them, an internet forum won't fix that.)
Gerran's based his argument on traditional values, which makes him hypocrite since he rejects hadiths, but accepts other side books such as Christian Domostroi.
Regarding his reasoning that 434 is in the context of 429 (mutual consent), then that means he limits the context of 434 to 429, excluding many other verses, including 425.
There are too many questions in case we use 'beat' in verse 434, such as with what and 'how' to beat (and asking Gerran's this will get you blocked as well as him telling you to write a book), and why does 435 proceeds with divorce procedure.
Qur'an also talks about marrying 'beliving women', which may incline that the believer will also strive not to become arrogant to his/her spouce, but if he does, then that should be between the person and God, while physical agression in marriage should still be frowned upon, since Qur'an also tells about kind treatment of wives (419).
Flatearthism makes people arrogant, because they fail to accept other arguments, which are based on years of studying. That's what Sam is, an arrogant tinfoil hat dude. He believes in numerous conspiracy theories while evading any serious talk regarding his work on Qur'an. Either you accept it as the primary truth, or he calls you a talker and blocks you.
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His rendition of verse 434 is the reason why I started doubting him. (By the way, the comments under the video are disgusting).
Then he came up with his videos on the flat earth and, although I didn't stop following him, I stopped trusting him as much as before.
I completely stopped following him after I saw that he moved to Georgia with his family to escape the "gay propaganda", "the New World Order", "chemtrails", "insert any other conspiracy theory here", of the West.
I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to trust a man who goes to the length of moving to a whole other continent to run away from problems that don't exist. He is paranoid and he lost all his credibility in my eyes.
Now that I know he also has a shitty personality I'm happy I unsubscribed his channel. -
His rendition of verse 434 is the reason why I started doubting him. (By the way, the comments under the video are disgusting).
Then he came up with his videos on the flat earth and, although I didn't stop following him, I stopped trusting him as much as before.
I completely stopped following him after I saw that he moved to Georgia with his family to escape the "gay propaganda", "the New World Order", "chemtrails", "insert any other conspiracy theory here", of the West.
I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to trust a man who goes to the length of moving to a whole other continent to run away from problems that don't exist. He is paranoid and he lost all his credibility in my eyes.
Now that I know he also has a shitty personality I'm happy I unsubscribed his channel.That's......actually pretty insane. Ah well. It's a shame he's a lunatic, but his translation remains a good benchmark upon which further work can be done. I hope that there is more and more of this sort of translation done down the road (I think it's called "formal equivalence"?).
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Makaveli,
Not only does Sam Gerrans translate daraba as beat, but unfortunately he also believes that the traditionalist understanding of so-called "virgins in paradise" is correct. But his understanding of "virgins in paradise" can easily be disproved by using the quran alone. Another youtuber (Quran centric) has made a good video about "houries in the quran", and in his video he has disproved the traditionalist understanding of "virgins in paradise." Do a search on youtube, if you are interested in watching his video.
Never follow men, brother. No man has a perfect understanding of all the verses in the quran. Therefore, if a believer starts to follow men, he will be disappointed. He might be led astray too. The Quran never tells you to follow men. It tells you to follow God alone. But it's okey to support other believers and learn from them, though. Some of Sam Gerrans videos and articles are good (e.g. his video about purity). Although his understanding of the Quran is not perfect (like all other scholars), he is seemingly a man with a good heart. He appears to have a strong work ethic too. In terms of bringing the Quran and its message to a wider audience, he has probably achieved more than most users on FM will ever achieve.
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Makaveli,
Not only does Sam Gerrans translate daraba as beat, but unfortunately he also believes that the traditionalist understanding of so-called "virgins in paradise" is correct. But his understanding of "virgins in paradise" can easily be disproved by using the quran alone. Another youtuber (Quran centric) has made a good video about "houries in the quran", and in his video he has disproved the traditionalist understanding of "virgins in paradise." Do a search on youtube, if you are interested in watching his video.
Never follow men, brother. No man has a perfect understanding of all the verses in the quran. Therefore, if a believer starts to follow men, he will be disappointed. He might be led astray too. The Quran never tells you to follow men. It tells you to follow God alone. But it's okey to support other believers and learn from them, though. Some of Sam Gerrans videos and articles are good (e.g. his video about purity). Although his understanding of the Quran is not perfect (like all other scholars), he is seemingly a man with a good heart. He appears to have a strong work ethic too. In terms of bringing the Quran and its message to a wider audience, he has probably achieved more than most users on FM will ever achieve.
Peace,
His translation is pretty much that of traditional. He translates 538 as cut off hands although there could be other indications here according to the social setting or concrete situation.
I am aware of his views on hoorines, I actually wanted to bring this up here too, but decided not to, since this thread is more focused on his 434 . He also seems inconsistent in his views on what he percieves as literal and what he views as metaphorical. For instance, his comment under 812 (comment no. 2770) talks about the possibility of this part being not literal, but nonetheless in many other places he translates verses quite literally, including the 538 and 434.
He is not looking for truth either. For instance, read his comments under 532. He basically says I don't need to know what I don't understand. That is one major difference of his work compared to traditionalists, since the latter would also use hadiths to explain any verse, he, however, simply says I don't need to know. Wow...okay, thanks I guess. We don't need to know, very simple.
I disagree that he is a man of a good heart. From my perspective, he's an arrogant person who sees everything from his conspirological prism and in case you disagree with him the outcome is known.
I agree that he invested quite a bit in his work, but that does not make him superior to other translators or people in general. His contextual analysis of many verses, including 434 is clearly poor, as you can see he overlooks wide amount of problems associated with daraba in 434. Instead of being arrogant he could look more into the issue. Not to mention he clearly HAS time to discuss the issue. He claims to be super busy and stuff, he's also planning to overthrow tyranny and so on. But in reality, when I had him friended on FB, he makes youtube video and comments on the media articles daily. If he has time to comment on the media and spread his conspiracy theories, he clearly has time to answer few simple questions.
He is not a critical thinker either, as long as you support his views he might look like he's thinking critically, but once you start using your own head he shows his very secterian nature. Look at his video where he speaks about how he started translating the Qur'an. He also speaks a little about his background there, which is Christian. He was never skeptical from the beggining (such as when he constantly emphasises "Think for yourself" ideology), he was Christian from the start, according to him, and for years he was devoted to Christian movements. So his "think for yourself" is only about rejecting one tradition and accepting the other. That is not thinking for yourself or thinking critically.
I would not sit at the same table with people like Gerrans. I don't care about good part of his views, I abandoned his work alltogether, no matter how good some other parts of it may be. I do not, however, in no case tell others to do the same, I just wanted to reveal his true personality to others. And I believe that autorship has a lot to do with how we percieve certain information.
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Peace Makaveli.
I see you are disappointed. However,what is wrong with all of us seeking a uniting path?
Let me elaborate more
No two people can share the same beliefs in all its details.
We are bound,by GOD s definition/analysis/... of us humans,by different upbringing,doctrines,character,traditions,...Those who are chasing the truth sincerely,will slowly realise that the best way to deal with humans is to persevere at keeping going and carrying on the chasing of the truth.Unfortunately,those who stop and think they have the truth will build barriers between themselves and the others!!!!And back to square one,divisions and holding on to dogmas. It is their loss and we pray for their guidance as well as ours.
I am finding ,the best way is to keep concentrating on ourselves,using our patience and forgiveness by seeking GOD s help,and keep an open mind on those who we think have erred or have become arrogant or... All those who are peaceful with their fellow humans,are respectful and do good deeds ,deserve a chance with GOD,so why not with us.
It is not by our wishes or the wishes of whoever thinks they have the truth that GOD rewards or sanctions His servants. It is entirely up to GOD Alone.
In short I am saying ,forgive and forget and move on, You seem like a sincere guy who is searching for your truth.
My opinion brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli.
Peace good logic,
I agree that believers should not blindly follow people and keep adequate distance, and should instead focus on the right discourse. I did not create this topic to create false or negative image for Gerrans. Nothing from me here is of my personal opinion or does not match reality. At the same time, people should be careful when choosing what to believe, especially people that are inexperienced in Arabic. There is too much of information out there, including Quranic. Sam Gerrans obviously has some influence within Qur?an alone agenda, but from my personal experience this guy does not spread righteous information , and does in fact contrary.
Thank you for your kind words.
Peace. -
Peace Makaveli.
Thank you for your clarifying post.
Let me give an example of what I mean by sometimes we need to be patient and forgiving. That does not mean compromising or accepting illogical and false views.I travelled to London yesterday(Sunday 2/9/2017) . I wanted to visit the "speakers corner" in Hyde park to have a look.
I found plenty of people "selling" their religion. Some Jewish, quite few Christians ,plenty of "Traditional Muslims" and the odd humanist,other....
I got there around 1130 AM, the place was quiet at first,then it started to get busy ,the place filled up by about 200 PM .
I found that most speakers/debaters had their own agenda and were specifically wanting to stay debating /preaching their own set beliefs.
It was a new experience for me,looking at all these people with "my mind is made up" agendas,almost deaf to logical/searching questions from others.
I was mainly feeling the "atmosphere" and listening to different topics being discussed.
What struck me is how some have developed a "skill" to hijack the conversation and back each other up on false premises and assumptions.Sometimes the person leading/starting the debate has friends who are protective and support his views by undermining/deflecting the conversation when the other guy hits the nerve with a good question.Anyway,the 5 hours that I spent there highlighted for me the difficulty we face in changing ways/attitudes of people by any other means except to give the example of being the best we can according to the ethics of GOD s instructions/advice in Qoran.
It was interesting and I will go again GOD willing.
May be I will even take part in these debates,but hopefully with an open mind .By the way,there was no Qoran Alone or monotheist individuals there,or at least I did not meet/see any.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
That was indeed an interesting experience of yours. When people are literally selling their views and they believe that their product is the best, the most right, the most enlightening, it really shows how complicated is to find truth. Back then before printing press it was probably easy to convince people of any heresy because most ordinary people did not have access to information (libraries and universities). Now that is vice versa, people do have access to anything, but the downside is that we live in the age of informational freedom and we are basically sinking in the informational flow, which is seldom good, because you never know what kind of truth may in fact be positive for your own wellbeing as well as for community as whole. It is hard to determine which is best now and obviously the marked is filled with all sort of modern clerics and people who believe they are the most knowledgeable on the subject.
Arrogance is something which should be in fact minimized, especially now because there are already countless of views on anything. There are plenty of people who would argue against Gerrans, as well as there are many supports of him. He is a somewhat prominent figure, nonetheless. But the problem with Quran alone community is that there is seldom consensus among its members on many issues, from salat to siyam (fasting) to community building to household and marital issues and so on. And there are obviously people who would say that they have done work and therefore you either praise them for this, or get blocked and be called a talker.
I understand that patience is in fact one of the strongest monotheistic virtue not all of us can demonstrate. And I fully agree with you that no matter what circumstances are, it is best to keep being patient with whatever happens and leave the rest to God. But I can also tell that Quran alone for the most part relies on logic and reason and then on linguistic and contextual analysis. And you are never sure which translation is the best one, so in the end all you have to do is logic and reason, because you cant rely on the side-literature. That is why it is best to analyze all of the most prominent players in Quran alone community, to analyze it with open heart and mind, and to see if they are good or if they spread negative message. And if they do spread negative, see why, because I still think that bitter truth is better than sweet lie. It is not because of 434 that Ive approached Gerrans, but because HOW he did go about this verse. Refering to the old Christian traditional books and then saying that this is contextually correct, because it is not consistent with many other verses. In addition, the way he went about me kindly approaching him on the issue Ive already described.
So yes, I agree that no matter how effective is one at choosing (or filtering) how to approach all sorts of information (most of which is pointless or negative), there will always be surplus of all kinds of teachings, good and bad. But to filter what is right from wrong (which is cultural and subjective) one has to follow common discourse, which to me personally is peace and patience, which I personally strive to follow, with varied success.
The reason why there are often no Quran alone people at these debates is because there is no community or business within this movement, which is actually good. All these churches and traditional Muslims they approach it like a business. Their books tell them, at least that is correct for Muslims, that if they manage to convert someone into Islam, they get reward from God. You can google do I get reward convert Islam or similar keywords, and see how many topics are there of Muslims asking other Muslims if they will get their reward if they made a friend of theirs accept Islam. Same with many Christian movements, they are interested in getting people among their ranks, because they also get money from them. There is no Quran alone community, organization, or government. And I think there will never be, not in the nearest future at least. I am not sure if this is perfectly good or bad. I still fail to understand numerous community-related injunctions in the Quran, which are obviously addressed to the community, such as how to go about adulterers or thieves, or aggressors. These verses are made for communities and not for ordinary individuals. But I simply fail to see the Quran alone country or the state. Maybe a commune, but a commune cannot effectively stand against thousands of soldiers with AKs. And I honestly cant imagine any of you guys actually punishing an adulterer with hundred lashes. Something must be either terribly misunderstood or the Quranic project has failed from the beginning (historically).
I apologize for somewhat long post heh.
Peace.