If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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http//web.archive.org/web/20170201094640/http//www.labourcoin.com80/?
If that can help you in retrieving whatever you want to retrieve.
further info https//superuser.com/questions/828907/how-to-download-a-website-from-the-archive-org-wayback-machinehope this helps.
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A commentary
"The angels understood the ultimate behavior of the said vicegerent from the words, ?in the earth?.
A vicegerent appointed in the earth would certainly be created from material components; he would necessarily be bestowed with two basic traits of desire and anger; the earth is a place of unceasing struggle and constant confrontation; its resources are limited, its opportunities finite; but the proposed vicegerent's desire would be unlimited, infinite. The condition of the earth and earthly things was hardly reassur?ing.
Its creatures were subjected to ever-continuing deterioration and disintegration; its good was always turning into bad; it was a place where an individual could not live without a group having similar characteristics and traits. Keeping all this in view, the angels at once understood that what Allah intended to create was not only an individual, but a species.
The members of that species would have to live together, cooperating with one another; that is to say, they would have to establish a society, a social order. And with a venture like this, they were bound to cause mischief and to shed blood.
On the other hand, they knew that vicegerency - setting one thing in place of another - was unthinkable unless the vicegerent were a true copy of his predecessor in all the characteristics, traits and intrinsic abilities.
The proposed earthly creature was to be made vicegerent of Allah in the earth. Allah has got for Himself the best names, the sublime attributes; His mercy and power are beyond the comprehension of His creatures; He, in His person, is untouched by any defect; and, in his actions, is free from all kinds of evil and disorder.
How could an earthly vicegerent, with all his defects and deficiencies, represent the majesty and splendor of Allah in the earth? Well, could a lowly creature of earth be a mirror of divine beauty and sublimity?"
Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
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Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
The "A commentary" is from https//www.al-islam.org/es/node/19106
Wakas mentioned a request for you about your objections, will you go through with it? God willing.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif -
Honestly I like your explanation, took me a while to reply because I haven't looked at it that way before.
What caught my interest is the last question. Are you saying that we can become like God/Allah?
Actually your explanation is based on alot of assumptions but I would like your reply first so I can continue to talk just to get a clear picture of your writing.
I didn't write that, that's why I added quotation marks lol. You can read all of it here https//www.al-islam.org/al-mizan-exegesis-quran-vol-1-allamah-tabatabai/suratul-baqarah-verses-30-33
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The "A commentary" is from https//www.al-islam.org/es/node/19106
Wakas mentioned a request for you about your objections, will you go through with it? God willing.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gifIt's really useless. He's not asking to listen to me but to try to counter everything I write.
Most of us at some point truly believed in the old stories of Mohamed and the Hadith books, most probably most of us were willing to die believing in it. Now that we've opened our eyes a little bit we have abandoned Hadith books, I don't think any of us feel like we could ever go back believing in them just like how I currently feel like I can never go back to believing in the current interpretations of the Quran.
The difference here is, it's easy to abandon hadith books. The excuse is that they're written by men and men make mistakes np. But when the Quran is thought to be the word of God, no one wants to cross that red line and we all fall back in fear. We're stuck in a loophole of circular reasoning to justify whatever we find, change the meanings of some words to justify the message, twist and adjust to make it fit.
So it's really a waste of time as they wont listen.
Im not the best at expressing my opinion and I'm not the greatest writer but many have come here with much superior writing skills to send the message that it all doesn't add up. Most have given up and left or come in from time to time.. It's like standing in the middle of mecca trying to convince people that Hadith books are made up. It's a waste of energy and honestly I'm trying to find the truth not save the world.
I know I'm moving in the right direction, if anyone is willing to find the real truth I will gladly share everything I know and believe till now.
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I didn't write that, that's why I added quotation marks lol. You can read all of it here https//www.al-islam.org/al-mizan-exegesis-quran-vol-1-allamah-tabatabai/suratul-baqarah-verses-30-33
I kinda thought you might have not written it but was just making sure. Anyways thanks.
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It's really useless. He's not asking to listen to me but to try to counter everything I write.
Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I've been a forum member for a while and my experience of people similar to yourself is the following
- they have no clue what evidence/answer they are looking for, hence will not recognise it even if its staring them in the face
- are not actually genuinely seeking the truth, and only to validate their pre-existing beliefs (or lack thereof)
- still look at Quran through the lens of tradition hence are blinded to what it's saying
- remain silent when challenged/questioned
I may be wrong of course.
Looks like I was right after all.
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If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hands came into existence through out all this time all back to 14 centuries ago. Without the chain narration, how do you know that the book you are holding in your hands that is called The Quran it is indeed from words of the messenger Mohammad and his revelation from God?
If one rejects the Hadith (ie. Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud), the Tafsir (ie. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, al-Jalalayn, Maududi), and the History (ie. al-Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, al-Waqidi, Ibn Ishaq), then the entire historical context of the Qur'an, along with any proof of Muhammad's existence, is lost.
You get a nameless, unhistorical book in which you believe that it is words from God because it says so, how silly dont you think?
I would like a sectarian scholar to answer the following
How do we know hadiths are talking about the Quran we study and follow?
How do those men show the Quran is we have today is the right Quran? Do they have the accounting done?
Would you have believed in Quran just by hearing it came from God and Muhammad if you were a pagan back then?
If Quran was transmitted through chains of narrators, why is it not graded like hadiths?
Why hadiths don't rhyme like the Book?
Why do you think God needed chains of narrators for only Quran and not Injeel and Torah?
Why is it that you can't figure out on your own that it is God's revelation?
Do you think you should even declare that you believe in God when it is too clear that you never studied and followed his guidance?
Lastly, please please, explain the meaning of Book found in the following verses and who gave you people the authority to change it
http//islamawakened.com/quran/roots/files/screen-shot-2013-09-10-at-7.12.41-pm.jpg
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I would like a sectarian scholar to answer the following
Peace, only one question for hearsay followers; name one gossip they're willing to wager their soul it is 100% true?
https//s26.postimg.org/yluefqsh5/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch29v61-69.jpg
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Looks like I was right after all.
Ok I'll get right to it even tho I see no point in explaining my point of view.
Now I will give you 5 reasons why I believe the current interpretations and the way we understand the Arabic language is false. Mainly my problem is with the core message of the Quran and the concept of God, I will not get into the rules/laws because how we see them can be different from one person to the next. For example The inheritance, Sunni Muslims claim that it's 100% fair, as the son/uncle/grandfather are responsible (also financially) for the daughter after her father dies. However, many members here would disagree due to unfairness, control of women, etc... Another example is the Hijab or the veil how it's viewed by many Sunni Muslims and how it's viewed by western community and homosexuality, etc... Anyways lets get to it..
1- The reason for creation. Now the Quran claims to be fully detaield/complete (however you want to translate it) but many key and critical points and answers are missing. Now not long ago I asked on this forum "Why were we created" and I received answers mainly one of the three (with Quran references) To worship or to serve or to do good or all three. Let's examine them one by one according to the Quran
To Worship, now I have a problem with this because why would God want to be worshipped? MOF brought up a very important point here on the forum and many have failed to listen, that we humans have created an image of God similar to a Human ruler or a person in power with wordly desires. Every King/Queen loves to be worshiped in some form or another, it's a desire to feel dominant over the rest, greed for power and control. If we think about it logically if God is truly what he claims in the Quran, why would he want humans to praise him night and day? why perform rituals? if not rituals why even care if they acknowledge him or not? God is the ALMIGHTY and we are nothing, weak human with no power. Allah in the Quran is a Jealous God just like in the Torah, a trait that shows weakness and no self control. How can God be such?! Why does God even care if we believe in other Gods or follow other religions?....
To Serve, Now God in the Quran mentions several times that he is not in need of anything or anyone. Whatever he wants, he just wills and it happens. Then why did you create billions of humans with no power whatsoever and ask them to serve you? How can we even serve you? why would God even care? There is nothing in this physical world that we can do that will ever serve God, the only way to serve him is spiritually. How? I'm not sure yet, but still according to the Quran God does not even need that!
To do Good, now in the Quran the world will come to an end and we live in a world where we will all eventually die, right? Lets say I do good by helping the poor eventually they will die and all my effort and their suffering will come to a halt. It's all meaningless! Just like doing good in the world by developing it or creating new projects to help mankind, eventually this world will be destroyed...and all our efforts will be meaningless. SO Why does Allah want us to do good? and what is good? because again it's very subjective. I eat meat and I love it! a vegan thinks I'm a one of the reasons animals are murdered on a daily basis. People having multiple sex partners, others might find it bad, etc.. you will have a tonne of examples really
So to be honest, no matter how hard you look at the Quran I GUARANTEE! that you will not find an answer without ONE WAY of circular reasoning to justify it. I'm willing to bet my whole damn money, life, everything on it!
2- Example of Attributes of God Quran claims God is the most merciful, now any person with an open eye will truly see that it's not true. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate God or I think he's evil, I just think he has no emotions and he only cares about results, but that's another topic. Now over and over again the Quran claims God will punish, burn, destroy and torture those who do not believe in him, those who go against the Quran! Yet lets say a man lived 80 years, how is it fair for him to be punished for all eternity for not believing in God or even doing evil for a period that is negligible compared to infinity.
This is also a problem as the Quran claims God is in control of everything, another contradiction! If God is in control of everything then we cannot have free will, it just doesn't make sense. Thus how can God punish us when he has total control over us?! But if God has no control over us then God is not in control of everything! its just very simple but people are too stupid and afraid to claim that God is not in control of everything.
God is all knowing HOW!!!!!?? THEN WHY THE F ARE WE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! it's very stupid to test something when you already know the end result, it's even dumber when you create something to test it and say you know everything about it. Why test it then? does this even make any sense?! I've had a forum member here post some garbage about us living in this world to appreciate other things lol but still God could create us with the gift to appreciate everything no matter what! Believe me Wakas no matter how much you think about it, you will always go back to circular reasoning to justify this!
3- God used a language that is specific to a certain area AND words have different meanings. In our world the only language that can never be played with or twisted is math, like Edip always said "It's the universal language" and I totally agree with him. Yet God, according to the Quran used a language where almost every word can be used to have several meanings, this opens up a door to corruption, misinterpretation and misinformation. Now you have Quranists trying as hard as possible to look for the meaning of the word that will justify their stance just like Shia and Sunni Muslims. Why not make a language that's more like math to explain to the humans God's message! why did you prefer to use a language that is only known to a limited number of people. IF GOD WOULD HAVE USED MATH OR SOMETHING SIMILAR then the whole world would be able to understand the TRUE MESSAGE! a person in china not knowing Arabic will have to rely on interpretations and translations of others, it's truly unfair. Your reply might be "well the Quran claims to have sent messengers to all communities and tribes", however, every damn prophet mentioned in the Quran was pretty much only around the middle east. I didn't see a mention of any Chinese prophet, or a red indian prophet or a latino prophet?!
Now the road to salvation is also to believe in God, his messenger, the Quran, his angels and judgement day! meaning only people that read the Quran and believe in according to the interpretation of someone else or their if they've put an effort would enter heaven and live in the middle east. How about the rest? the ones that have not been introduced to the Quran, the ones that have not read the message? what about them?
This is tiring lol. Anyways honestly I've just wrote 3 points that came to my mind and in no particular order of importance. I will continue later at night or tomorrow when I have more time
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Basically you want GOD to make everything very clear to us.. GOD ,the Angels and all the unseen will be summoned before our eyes and this life will be terminated.
Everyone will obviously believe and all will live happily ever after wherever that may be. A different world? Because there is no need for this world or its purpose.
GOD bless.
Peace, -
Basically you want GOD to make everything very clear to us.. GOD ,the Angels and all the unseen will be summoned before our eyes and this life will be terminated.
Everyone will obviously believe and all will live happily ever after wherever that may be. A different world? Because there is no need for this world or its purpose.
GOD bless.
Peace,Did you even read what I wrote
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In our world the only language that can never be played with or twisted is math, like Edip always said "It's the universal language" and I totally agree with him.
The answers are screaming right in your face. Interests being used to cripple livelihood.
IF GOD WOULD HAVE USED MATH OR SOMETHING SIMILAR then the whole world would be able to understand the TRUE MESSAGE!
You sound so convinced, God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west? Please.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion053.gif
Man of Faith got through to you, as it was apparent from your admiration for his work.
Lets say I do good by helping the poor eventually they will die and all my effort and their suffering will come to a halt. It's all meaningless!
It's never meaningless if you're a loving human being. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/129fs4252631.gif
9218 The one who gives his money to purify.
9219 Seeking nothing in return.
9220 Except the face of His Lord, the Most High.
9221 And he will be pleased.I'd talk about your other points, but I'd be going in circles with you.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gif -
Peace Hansolo,
Everything we perceive is built of simple patterns or rules, for example asymmetry, from silence sound can be created but will always returns to silence, or light can be created but will always return to darkness, or life can be created but will always return to no alive, asymmetry is a simple pattern that repeats. Another is dichotomy, for example positive and negative, light and dark, by examining these many patterns you can understand the underlying nature, because everything is a copy of that fundamental structure.
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Peace Hansolo,
Everything we perceive is built of simple patterns or rules, for example asymmetry, from silence sound can be created but will always returns to silence, or light can be created but will always return to darkness, or life can be created but will always return to no alive, asymmetry is a simple pattern that repeats. Another is dichotomy, for example positive and negative, light and dark, by examining these many patterns you can understand the underlying nature, because everything is a copy of that fundamental structure.
Greetings Abdun Nur,
So if we are alive (self conscious ) right now it means that we were not alive ( self conscious ) before our physical bodies were born. So when we die our bodies fail and start to break down, and we are not alive ( self conscious) anymore again?
It makes sense. Because last year when I undergone a surgery under local anaesthesia, the only thing I remembered is that they put the anaesthesia gas on me and the next thing I see is me waking up in another room 3-5 hours later. Those 3-5 hours did no exist for me. So if local anastesia (kills you ) for 3-5 hours, then imagine how much dead you are when the body stops functioning. So I guess when the body dies/breaks down there is no (self conscious).
Also what actually makes me, me? My memories ? I imagine if I get total amnesia I will be a new person. Because if people are blank papers when they are born than isn't it the society, childhood, parents, culture that shapes who that person is? Persons, worldview and etc.?
Thats why Im trying to think what actually makes me, me or any other person an individual? If we take away everything that was learned externally from this world through out our life`s? Who is really inside of us? Just an observer? Might that be God?
Correct me if You do not agree or You have an alternativ opinion, please.
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Peace Hansolo,
if you realize only consciousness actually exists, then as we all share the same perception of consciousness only a single consciousness can exist, if we have independent consciousness then we are a fractal form of that consciousness, if we are a fractal of a single consciousness we have existed within that consciousness always and always will as long as that consciousness exists.
Now as all is perception, then perception must form perceptions around the nature of itself, for example a pattern of reality is everything and nothing, so for example space is 99.999r% empty, other than energy waves, the remainder is plasma which is 99.99r% of all matter, then 99.999r% of the remainder is gases, 99.999r% of the remainder is crystalline solids, 99.999r% of the remainder is liquids. This shows the underlying nature of nothing, in tension to all thought which is reality.
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The answers are screaming right in your face. Interests being used to cripple livelihood.
You sound so convinced, God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west? Please.. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/onion053.gifMan of Faith got through to you, as it was apparent from your admiration for his work.
It's never meaningless if you're a loving human being. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/129fs4252631.gif9218 The one who gives his money to purify.
9219 Seeking nothing in return.
9220 Except the face of His Lord, the Most High.
9221 And he will be pleased.I'd talk about your other points, but I'd be going in circles with you.
Peace. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/kaffeetrinker_2.gifBecause Man of Faith and Hansolo are the only ones thinking straight and actually trying to figure out the truth instead of believing what we've been told since we were young as facts without questioning them.
I said it in my introduction thread, I mainly joined free minds to learn more about his perspective.
I have not fully answered Wakas question but till now you and good logic have just avoided my reasons. Anyways like I said people here are stuck in a loophole
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Peace Hansolo,
if you realize only consciousness actually exists, then as we all share the same perception of consciousness only a single consciousness can exist, if we have independent consciousness then we are a fractal form of that consciousness, if we are a fractal of a single consciousness we have existed within that consciousness always and always will as long as that consciousness exists.
Now as all is perception, then perception must form perceptions around the nature of itself, for example a pattern of reality is everything and nothing, so for example space is 99.999r% empty, other than energy waves, the remainder is plasma which is 99.99r% of all matter, then 99.999r% of the remainder is gases, 99.999r% of the remainder is crystalline solids, 99.999r% of the remainder is liquids. This shows the underlying nature of nothing, in tension to all thought which is reality.
Peace Abdun Nur,
Very interesting how everything is. So if we are fractal of a single consciousness which is the source of everything that was, that is and that can be. Does it mean that there must be a way to use our fractal mind to connect with the main universal consciousness? Doesn't that mean that we can manipulate this material reality which is basically a universal thought ? Doesn't that mean that if every consciousness on this earth is part of this universal consciousness that if we all wanted to create a paradise on this earth we could actually do it, because if we all put our minds into whatever we liked there should be no limits because our consciousness virtually has no limits, no?
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Because Man of Faith and Hansolo are the only ones thinking straight and actually trying to figure out the truth instead of believing what we've been told since we were young as facts without questioning them.
Peace Abdun Nur,
Very interesting how everything is. So if we are fractal of a single consciousness which is the source of everything that was, that is and that can be. Does it mean that there must be a way to use our fractal mind to connect with the main universal consciousness? Doesn't that mean that we can manipulate this material reality which is basically a universal thought ? Doesn't that mean that if every consciousness on this earth is part of this universal consciousness that if we all wanted to create a paradise on this earth we could actually do it, because if we all put our minds into whatever we liked there should be no limits because our consciousness virtually has no limits, no?
Indeed, hansolo is thinking straight.. not. http//www.pic4ever.com/images/290.gif
