homosexuality, the way forward?
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idmkhizar Could you please reference the qur'anic ayat that codemn sexuality in the strongest terms?
Homosexuality has been present in societies for who knows how long. We definitely know some form of it was going on during and before the revelation of the Qur'an.
The concentration on homosexuality here in America is a recent development. And, from my knowledge, this concentration is a reaction to the intolerance and abuses homosexuals/lesbians have encountered in last 40 years or so. Personally, I don't see homosexuality as the greatest problem in our society. Poverty, lack of assistance to the mentally ill and orphans, weak family structures, lack of universal health care, racism/classism, corporate exploitation, destructive domestic and international policy, environmental degradation and imperialism...THESE are the huge issues that need to be immediately addressed, IMO. Without a strong foundation, how can we expect a sturdy house?
Fight the source, not the symptom.
ONE
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Kebab Monster,
Did you say you study homosexuality?
Interesting...
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idmkhizar Could you please reference the qur'anic ayat that codemn sexuality in the strongest terms?
Homosexuality has been present in societies for who knows how long. We definitely know some form of it was going on during and before the revelation of the Qur'an.
The concentration on homosexuality here in America is a recent development. And, from my knowledge, this concentration is a reaction to the intolerance and abuses homosexuals/lesbians have encountered in last 40 years or so. Personally, I don't see homosexuality as the greatest problem in our society. Poverty, lack of assistance to the mentally ill and orphans, weak family structures, lack of universal health care, racism/classism, corporate exploitation, destructive domestic and international policy, environmental degradation and imperialism...THESE are the huge issues that need to be immediately addressed, IMO. Without a strong foundation, how can we expect a sturdy house?
Fight the source, not the symptom.
ONE
Peace sister. If i didnt know where the word originated from , i would say your post calls for an aaaaaamen!
regards
Noah -
Salaam Fam,
If a person "feels" that way and can't help him or herself, that does not excuse the behaviour. Take a look at rapists and pedophiles...
They all feel a certain way and have a certain way of thinking. However, we all know that the things that they do are wrong. So, for a person to "feel" this way means to me that there are psychological issues that these people need to look at and address.
For the rapist, there are power, anger and control issues. And GOD only knows what goes on in the head of a pedophile.
So, for any person to "feel" this unnatural attraction to the same sex suggests to me that they have some very strong psychological issues that need to be addressed,(no offense intended to homosexuals).
Another point I would like to bring up is the Unnatural-ness of it all...
When homosexuals engage in their activities, they do things with each other that they were not designed by GOD to do.
Do we as human beings put our shoes on our hands??? No, we do not!!! Do we as human beings wear gloves on our feet??? Again, no we do not!! Because we were designed a certain way, and shoes and gloves were specifically designed for specific parts of our bodies. It is the same with the human anatomy. We as men and women were designed by GOD to be specifically and systematically compatable (if you know what I mean, no need to get any more specific here).
They ask you about menstruation Say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the mannner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
Your women are the bearers of your seed. Thus, you may enjoy this privelage however you like, so long as you maintain righteousness. YOU SHALL OBSERVE GOD, AND KNOW THAT YOU WILL MEET HIM. Give good news to the believers.
(Quran 2222-223)Whenever The Quran speaks of Marriage and sexual relationship, it ALWAYS addresses the natural relationship between male and female. The Quran also condems homosexual behaviour when it speaks on the community of Lut/Lot.
The things that homosexuals do with each other, with the anatomy that they have been born with, is totally unnatural.
Two simple facts...
1). Sex is used as a vehicle for pro-creation.
2). Pro-creation can only be accomplished between a male and a female. It can never be accomplished between two males or two females!!
These two important facts alone, along with passages from the Quran speaking on Lot's Dilemma, let me know that homosexuality is definately unnatural, and thus, wrong.
Peace family,
Damon. -
Salaam all,
Humility wrote
I would also like to say (in relation to what Damon said) - to compare homosexuality and paedophilia is not correct. One harms children because it's simply rape - anything which involves hurting another human being is bad and should be condemned. the other involves consent between people who as far as I know are not hurting each other (unless there's occurence of rape). Both behaviours generate moral controversy but it doesn't mean that they should be compared. Above I said that homosexuality wasn't the biggest problem we face, but paedophilia is actually serious because again children are being hurt and abused. I hope you see the difference.Perhaps you missed my point. I am not debating whether or not one harms people and the other one doesn't. I was speaking strictly on the fact that there is a mental/psychological issue with these people that need to be addressed. Whether you are talking about pedophiles, rapists or homosexuals, the fact remains that there is a psychological deficiency in them that has to be dealt with.
One,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you all,
Those who make excuses for going against the God's system regarding sexuality are symbolized in the story of Lot as "the Old Woman who lagged behind". I suggest you all read that story over and over again.
Let me be clear, I do not criminalize a homosexual PERSON, I criminalize the homosexual ACT. The problem is a clear one, these people have not learned how to control thier animalistic behavior, that is what the God's system teaches us, this is what is meant by Solomon using the shayteen to do things for him, instead of letting the Shayteen use him!
WHen we act based on FEELINGS, we are slaves to the animal, for example, one might FEEL like eating cakes and Pies all day, but to do that would be comparable to being led by a Dumb Animal, instead we are to transcend that type of behavior and eat according to TRUTH, accroding to what is nutritionally correct.
One might FEEL like smoking, but that would be comparable to following a dumb animal, instead we should transcend and only inhale oxygen.
One might FEEL like having sex with the same sex, but that would again be following a dumb animal, one should transcend that behavior and follow the LAW, just as they should for all other behaviors in life. We cannot live by DESIRES! What does the God say about Desires? SOmeone please tell me.
This topic is so ridiculous that I cant believe it keeps coming back. What are a penis and vagina created with those shapes for? Is there no PURPOSE in the God's design? As the God says, truth stands out clearly from falsehood. So some try to bring all kinds of illogical reasonings, "well waht about people with both sex organs" etc. Yes, there are all kinds of perversities created because we have been terrible servants, so we have retarded people, blind people, and all kinds of birth defects from incorrect living, you reap what you sow, very simple.
Of course you will see more homosexuals when a society gives it the green light, and if they gave murderers the green light, you would see more killing (Like the Us military). Simple mathematics.
Lastly, the sister stated that Homosexuality is notr a bigger problem than poverty, I say lets not allow the wicked to DIVIDE the wickedness like that, we need to address ALL WICKEDNESSES, if we concentrate on poverty, then they will pump up homosexuality and other wickedness, and when we concentrate on homosexuality, they will move to something else. Divide and Conquer is the oldest trick in the book.
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Peace idolfree,
We cannot live by DESIRES! What does the God say about Desires? SOmeone please tell me. This topic is so ridiculous that I cant believe it keeps coming back. What are a penis and vagina created with those shapes for? Is there no PURPOSE in the God's design? As the God says, truth stands out clearly from falsehood
Lol your reply is comical! Sorry if you are offended but I agree with the logic you are using, but I think it's harder for others to see that logic because of their hormones, these individuals did not choose their hormones and also this is a harder thing for them to understand.
Maybe a certain spiritual level must be reached to understand or maybe homos will always exist and want this.
Peace
Nural -
Salaamun alaikum , dear brothers and sisters!
Well, finally I decided to step into these discussions on homosexuality on the free-minds forum, though reluctantly.
I decided to step in, because a) My wordlview became basically God alone/quran alone during the last year and inshallah grows into that direction and
b) I have spent a lot of thoughts and discussions on this issue of homosexuality recently. So, I think I should try to put my thoughts down here, right?
However, I am reluctant to step in, because neither my thoughts nor my discussions on this topics have been finished yet. Thus, what I have to offer is a dish that?s not really ready for eating, unfortunately.
But maybe it?s still someone?s taste ...... .My personal opinion on this issue is ..... well, difficult to define. I am not ready to say with full conviction that homosexuality is halaal. But I will also not say that homosexuality is haraam either. I would say, every issue pertaining to human personality and behaviour is way to complex to generalize it .... the quran gives us a beautiful example of this in the story of Musa and his companion (in folk tradition called Khizr) that he met at the confluence of the seas.
I am quite sure that the perceptions of most muslims both traditionalists and followers of God alone with regards to homosexuality are largely based on strong cultural patterns and not on the quran at all.
This is clearly visible in the energy with which homosexuality is always discussed among muslims and Muslims. Other issues which figure much more prominently in the quranic teachings on morality and have much more importance in the book of God like e.g.telling lies, deceiving, pride are rarely discussed with that energy. Strange ..... .
These cultural patterns have a long history that goes way back before the revelation of the quran. Nowadays they mostly center around the story of Lut and muslims (and Muslims“ made it a rule to apply to this story the interpretation that they found among the Christian Bible exegetes. Yes, I think the general interpretation of this story found in muslim circles is historically just a copy of the ideas of Christian monks ( for whom homosexuality, by the way, was and is a very specific issue) and not based on emancipated thinking about the quranic revelation.Appart from these specific cultural patterns we should always be aware that homosexuality is in general a cultural thing. The term homosexuality (or translations of it) and what we today understand with regards to it developed during the 20th century.
Gender diversity and sexual diversity were seen in different ways and with different patterns in different times and cultures. We can?t equate all these patterns with our modern understanding of sexuality and gender.
Given the fact that God commands us to accept all revelations and prophets as equal, we should mention in this context the fact that there were and still are many (not just a few) cultures in this world with a pretty monotheistic spirituality that never condemned people with a gendered or sexual diversity and sometimes even saw them as especially sacred.
(e.g. the precolumbian cultures of North America, who were much more monotheistic than Christian missionaries want us to believe and who knew their berdache, winkte etc. as a sacred third gender)Now, since most of the muslim ideas on homosexuality center around the story of Lut, I would like to mention some interesting facts that one should meditate on and that could inspire a more emancipated reading of this story.
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Whatever sin the people of Lut committed (and I am not sure if it was homosexuality as we understand it today, or homosexuality at all), we are not commanded to condemn or maybe even punish them. This is God?s business. We should accept it as His divine will, but our command is (on numerous places of the Quran) to take as our deen the position of Ibrahim. What was the position of Ibrahim when it came to the people of Lut? Read Sura 11 Ayah 74 75. Yes, Ibrahims position didn?t change God?s command. But it was definitely part of his spiritual maqam, I think.
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Is the story of Lut really about homosexuality? Read e.g. 7 80-81. Yes, Lut says you come in lust (shahwaat) leaving aside the women . But to whom does Lut adress his speach? Only to the men, adressing male homosexuality? No, he adresses qawmihi, his people. Including every memeber of his people, not just the men. So, women, children etc. are likewise accused of coming to men in shahwaat, leaving aside the women! Everybody! There?s more to this story than just male homosexuality.
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Nowhere in the quran does God mention female homosexuality in clear words. Some traditional Muslims have done some logically twisted interpretation with regards to this. But God alone followers should stick to the clear language with which God reveals.
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One could also start a discussion on the specific quranic meaning of shahwaat. There seems to be more to it than simply sexual lust. But others here have more knowledge on this specific issue than me .
Ok, this for a beginning. There is much more to say about my idea that the story of Lut is not simply a story about homosexuality, as taken from early Christian interpretation, but before delving into the subject I wonder what you guys have to say about my ideas. I also know that muslim criticism of homosexuality is not only based on the story of Lut. However, the story of Lut has always been the most important feature in this criticism and so I started to base my thoughts on it (at least for now).
Yes, God created male and female and he created them as complementary. And this complementarity partly shows in heterosexual couples and their children. However, this complementarity does not only appear in the magnetism between men and women. This complementarity exists in every single individual as well (we all posess so caled male and female hormones, male and female characteristics etc.).
And I am sure that, in the scheme of male and female, God Who creates what He wills- creates some of us in ways that show diversities in gender and/or sexuality"To Allah belongs the dominion over the heavens and the earth. He creates what he wills. He prepares for whom he wills females, and He prepares for whom He wills males. Or He mixes/pairs the male and the female, and He makes those whom He wills to be ineffectual in normal reproducing. Indeed He is the Knowing, the Powerful."
Surah 42 49 - 50Above every knower there is one higher in knowledge.
God knows best.Salaam,
Leyla
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Peace Leyla,
Very interesting read, never read an interpretation like this of Lot's story. Maybe God teaches us a more important message.
Nural
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Peace Leyla n all,
I'll try and put my thoughts about your thoughts. But as you eloquently put it - God knows best. )
First, I found the translation of the verses you posted in the end quite interesting. I prefer it this way though, much clearer in meaning, I think.
To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills. Or, He may bestow them with both daughters and sons, and He makes whom He wills sterile. He is Knowledgeable, Capable.
In regards to 'terms' and 'new developments of sexuality and gender', or even what happens in this continent vs. that country... I won't go into that, as it really doesn't concern or bother me (personally) much.
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At this point you state, you're not sure if homosexuality was invlolved at all in the story of Lut. You're willing to look at it, as whatever sin it was, other than homosexuality. Which is fine, although it makes me wonder why. In a more 'emancipated' reading, must we be politically correct, with new developments? ? Anyway, you mentioned about how we should not condemn or punish them... I am yet to see one person here, including myself, who has ordered or condoned punishment to homosexuals, for being so. In regard to the "postition of Ibrahim"... he was compassionate and kind, as we all need to be... but he was also told to stay away from the decision already made... about the same way many of the prophets tried to pray for the salvation of their relatives/loved ones (including Ibrahim) and were told not to waste their time (paraphrasing). Ibrahim was a fine example of a human being, but human nonetheless. So, are we to listen to Ibrahim?... or God? (Please don't answer that.)
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Again you question about Lut's story being about homosexuality. Perhaps not just, but it is there. I have said it before, and I say it again... we see what we want to see. If one wants to see God actually condoning homosexuality in all the quran, then that's what he/she will see. I liked the way you showed 780-81, that Lut was addressing "his people" and not just men. But lets not be hasty, shall we?... why pick some verses and leave others? Here's some verses, where he adresses his qawm, and there's a bit of clarification... see what you think of it;
And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no sane man among you??
They said ?You know we have no interest in your daughters, and you are aware of what we want!?There's a 'lot' to see, but whether we see, is a whole 'nother story. wink
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I believe there is a mention of female homosexuality, perhaps not specific, as you put it.
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Dictionaries and Lexicons will let us pick and choose whichever meaning that suits us... doesn't make it right.
There is much more to say about my idea that the story of Lut is not simply a story about homosexuality, as taken from early Christian interpretation...
Again, you reiterate... it's more than just homosexuality! Yes, anything but?... roll And pardon me, but I see this kind of mentality about jewish, christian interpration card played a lot, like it's supposed to mean something. They all believe in the almighty creator.... does it mean we shouldn't ? ?Yes, God created male and female and he created them as complementary. And this complementarity partly shows in heterosexual couples and their children.
Yes, true and agreed. )However, this complementarity does not only appear in the magnetism between men and women.
Magnetism? ?Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
Peace
PS - I wrote this during work, so if there's any mistakes or if there's any offence... my bad. oops
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Salaam Zenje and all!
Ok, zenje, I will try to adress your position in order. And, hopefully, without offence as well. I found no offence in your post. c)
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I think the traditional translation of 42 49-50 that you quoted does not give enough respect to the original Arabic meaning. E.g. the Arabic words for daughters and sons are not found at all in it. The terms directly mean males and females. From it?s root, the word aqeem also has a much more inclusive meaning than just sterile, imho.
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I think one should be very interested in terms and developments of concepts etc. when one is in search of knowledge. Where would this webpage be if people wouldn`t have realized that the traditional Muslim meaning of Salaat is a developed concept of a certain history? We all should be aware of the fact that many ways of thinking that we perceive as natural are not natural at all, but brainwashed by our culture. With regards to constructions of sexuality and gender, modern social science has done a great job to understand this. And a job that is as accurate (and still improvable) as modern physics, modern chemistry etc..
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I am not trying to be politically correct. If I would try to, I would say hey, God loves us all and so homosexuality must be halaal, because if I would think otherwise it would be against the declaration of human rights, or something. That?s not my point of view. And have struggled myself a lot with my position on homosexuality in the quran. I believe in an unchangeable will of God that was shown to us in the quran. But I also have made my conclusions when studying the quran. I am probably influenced by the globalist modern western culture that. Can?t deny that. I live here and now. But that?s exactly my point So were traditional interpreters by their cultural pattern. Which one is superior? Which one better? Which one closer to the original intention of the quran? That?s what I want to find out.
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The destructive influence of traditional Christian interpretation on the formation of Sunni and Shii Islam has been quite big. One should not underestimate this. Just look at the whole the messiah will come bak thing. Yes, they believe in God as well. But still.
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It is indeed very good that you quoted another verse with regards to Lut. We should assemble all the relevant verses to come to a conclusion. However, I disagree with your opinion on 1178f. . But you should mention the verses before as well. Why were they rushing towards him? Because they wanted to take the guests of Lut, and they did a similar kind of sin before. Now, if sexuality is an issue here, it is surely not the voluntarily and consensual kind of it. Sounds more like rape. And it?s not right to lump all homosexuals under one blanket with rapists (and it has been psychologically shown that rape has more to do with violence, humiliation and control than with sexual orientation)
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If we assemble even more verses we get a more complete picture of the sin of the people of Lut 2929 mentions that they were cutting the ways, which is generally interpreted as robbing strangers on the way (though I wonder about other possible interpretations). Another verse (sorry, can?t find it at the moment, but I?m sure you read it as well.) Tells us that the people of Lut forbade Lut to have guests of his own. In general, they didn?t seem to think good about strangers, it seems ..... .
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In 780 Lut says that his people commit a faheeshah that was never committed before. If this refers to homosexuality and we understand that statement literally, well, we have historical documents earlier than the times of Lut about this!
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A note on the word shahawaat. (This does not come from my brain, but from a friend?s. Thank you brother.) In 314 we learn that, just as men can be shahawaat for a people (of Lut), women can be a shahawaat for all mankind! Again, not only for men. Both genders have this potentiality for all genders.
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I always saw shahawaat as the opposit of mawaddatan wa rahmatan (love and mercy) in 3021 where . Now, 3021 describes the perfect love relationship. But the terms here are totally nongendered as well. he created for you spouses (nongendered, inclusive) from yourselves (nongenderd, inclusive).
What I read when I read the story of Lut together with 314 and 3021 is that the defining quranic criteria for sexuality is the difference between shahawaat on one side and mawaddatan wa rahmatan on the other, regerdlessof the genderdness or sex of the involved individuals. Both men and women can be shahawaat for both men and women. So there is neither a heterosexism nor a homosexism connected to this word. However, both men and women might also be objects of mawaddatan wa rahmatan for both men and women.
May God enlighten all of us and keep us from just following our wishes, homophobias, homophobia-phobias, political correctnesses, modern times, traditional concepts etc. etc. etc. .
Salaams,
Leyla
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Salam sister Leyla,
Lesbianism as well as gayism is 2 be punished according 2 the following Quranic verses
Those TWO WHO(women, Arabic= allati yaateen) commit lewdness among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
N 4 gays
The TWO MEN(allazaan) who commits lewdness shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
As 4 the story of Lot in the Quran their crime is clearly indicated
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
"You practice desire 'shahwah' with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
If this verse was addressing all the folk then wht sense does it make tht women n children practice desire with men INSTEAD OF THE WOMEN??? It doesnt make sense at all. 1stly coz shahwa means sexual desire n children dont practice such yet, 2ndly if women were 2 practice this with men it wld be alright but the last phrase 'instead of the women' makes it senseless. Does it make sense 2 say tht women praciced desire with men instead of the women? Does the Quran now support lesbianism instead of the right way according 2 u? The verses r very clear. The refernce in the above CONTEXT is 2 men only. Plz ive noticed tht many ppl especially at freeminds sometimes completely ignore the context n come up with bizzare interpretations of the Quran. These verses also make it absolutely clear
His people came rushing; they had grown accustomed to their sinful acts. He said, "O my people, it would be purer for you, if you take my daughters instead. You shall reverence GOD; do not embarrass me with my guests. Have you not one reasonable man among you?"
They said, "You know well that we have no need for your daughters; you know exactly what we want."
The reference is therefore 2 men coz Lot wldnt as the women n children 2 take his daughters wld he? It doesnt make any sense? I hope i made this clear. GOD Bless! -
Salaam Leyla,
Thanks for your reply. Just a quick note or two, before I leave...
Tells us that the people of Lut forbade Lut to have guests of his own. In general, they didn?t seem to think good about strangers, it seems ..... .
Oh they loved strangers alright... they just had restrictions for Lut... he was one of those who wanted to pure.Now, if sexuality is an issue here, it is surely not the voluntarily and consensual kind of it. Sounds more like rape. And it?s not right to lump all homosexuals under one blanket with rapists (and it has been psychologically shown that rape has more to do with violence, humiliation and control than with sexual orientation)
Nice, but note how you concluded it was rape and NOT homosexuality all in one. I asked this from someone else before... was Lut offering his daughters to be raped?If this refers to homosexuality and we understand that statement literally, well, we have historical documents earlier than the times of Lut about this!
Oh really?! shock Are we still referring to the quran?.. or.....? ?As for the rest of your post... try and keep it in english, better communication for everyone. )
May God enlighten all of us and keep us from just following our wishes, homophobias, homophobia-phobias, political correctnesses, modern times, traditional concepts etc. etc. etc. .
Wow. How about - May God guide us to the straight path. DPeace.
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Peace Leyla,
I think you are being led astray by your desires and wishful thinking.
I was going to write what Khizar above has, and therefore I hold that position.
I just wanted to add that "cutting the way" is not highway robbery like some pro-homosexual article tries to put forward. That's conjecture. What it means in the context of moving towards men and leaving women is that it cuts off the way of conception/reproduction.
It is condemning the effect of homosexuality.
Nevertheless it is not the people but the behaviour which we condemn. As you pointed out Lot lived amongst these people for a time. The lesson is that you allow people a time to reform; but then you have to move away from them leaving them to God's judgement.
The homosexuality debate has gone on for quite a time; and the conclusions are clear. The Quran condemns homosexuality as a sin; and the creative and permissive thinking that pro-homosexual sites/articles try to inject into this argument is a cutting of the way of reason.
Regards.
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Salaam
truth, maybe I am led away bymy desires and wishful thinking. Maybe not. I am praying almost every day that I am not.
Whateveer the case be, God knows best and neither your "I think" nor my "I think" qualify for a definit judgement here.I wrote myself that I am curious about different interpretations of "cutting the way". So, I am happy for your siggestion. However, the highway robbery thing is not from "homosexual articles", as you thought. It is from one of the most conservative and traditional quran tranlation collections that are in my shelf. I know, that makes it even more tricky and not much better. But I want you to know this. My opinion does not come from the gay liberation movement. Out of many reasons I am actually also quite critical of the gay liberation movement!
Your interpretation sounds interesting. But doesn?t give a definit stand on homosexuality as well.idmkhizar, the verses 415-16 that you mention have an inclusive plural that in Arabic can refer to both a male homosexual couple and a heterosexual couple. This is Arabic grammar.
Again, the defining criteria here is not the genderdness or the sex of the involved individuals, but the character of the relationship. One should also try to strive for a better understanding of what faheeshah really is according to quranic standards, what the word means by its root and how it should really be translated to come to a definit independent conclusion.
I have written about 780 already.
The traditional interpretation, if taken literally and true to the literal meaning of all the wordings of the story of Lut, highly doesn?t make sense as well!!!
maybe I am wrong and the traditional interpretation as well and there is a third possibility. If so, God may guide us to it.
We don?t exactly know what Lut had in mind with regards to his daughters. Preventing homosexuality? Guarding his guests? Rape? Marriage? Whatever it was, he was a fallible human, after all.
It?s not the point.
The point is, why did God hinmself destory the city in which Lut lived and what does this mean for our understanding of Islam.Even if the story of Lut was about homosexuality (to which I still object and of which I am not convinced yet) it would be a bold step to comdemn all kinds of homosexual relationships from the description of this extreme society where (if it was homosexuality) almost everybody seems to take part in it and where other kinds of sin are present as well.
Since I believe that every wording in the quran ahs to make sense, I am very sure that it is not a coincidence that the word shahwa in the whole quran is only used in specific places in very very few occurances (actually, I think but please correct me, only in the story of Lut and in 314) and in these few occurances refers to both men and women.
I am also sure that it is no coincidence that the verse talking about a relationship with mawaddatan wa rahmatan only uses inclusive plurals that can mean men and women in all kinds of possible relationships.
I think Gods words are quite clear in this regards but you are simply overreading this.zenje, I don?t understand your point about the strangers. Your becoming a little bit sarcastically emotional, it seems. (maybe I am as well)
That?s not logically deducting the meaning from the quran.
Let me ask you a question
When we see in the quran that the earth moves around the sun and say"oh, this just as it is, because we know this is fact, alhamdulillah", are we only refering to the quran, or ...... maybe science?
God alone does not mean that we don?t accept all other kinds of wisdom besides quran as helpful. No one can live up to that standard that would simply be impossible for a human.
Stop using your ears, stop using your eyes, stop using chemistry, stop using mathematics ..... just follow the quran ...... oh yeah.Sorry, zenje, english is not my mother language and I am not conversing every day in it. Sometimes when its quite late and I am tired but want to make things clear I slip out of it.
Do you also have some personal characteristic that I can make fun of? Just that we both are even ..... .
We should try to keep our emotions out of this discussion.
As I wrote, this issue is usually discussed with way too much emotions. I wish muslisms would have the same emotions when discussing about theft.
But we usually don?t.I agree on the straight path.
May God guide us to it and keep us on it .
Bye,
Leyla
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Peace all,
The meaning of the verb "a/ta" / to approch a women or a man in the light of the Reading
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And they ask you about menstruation? Say ?It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you.? God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
Wayas-aloonaka AAani almaheedi qul huwa athan faiAAtaziloo alnnisaafee almaheedi wala taqraboohunna hattayathurna fa-itha tatahharna fa/toohunna min haythuamarakumu Allahu inna Allaha yuhibbu alttawwabeenawayuhibbu almutatahhireena -
Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
Nisaokum harthun lakum fa/too harthakum anna shi/tum waqaddimoo li-anfusikum waittaqooAllaha waiAAlamoo annakum mulaqoohuwabashshiri almu/mineena -
And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done??
Walootan ith qalaliqawmihi ata/toona alfahishata ma sabaqakum bihamin ahadin mina alAAalameena -
?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?
Innakum lata/toona alrrijala shahwatan min dooni alnnisa-i bal antum qawmunmusrifoona
thakar (male) and ontha (female)
The people of Lot sexually approch the male instead of the female
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?Do you approach the males of the worlds??
Ata/toona alththukrana mina alAAalameena -
?And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!?
Watatharoona ma khalaqa lakum rabbukum min azwajikum bal antum qawmun AAadoona -
And He is the One who created the pair, male and female.
Waannahu khalaqa alzzawjayni alththakara wa al-ontha -
And Lot, when he said to his people ?Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see??
Walootan ith qalaliqawmihi ata/toona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona -
?You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!?
A-innakum lata/toona alrrijala shahwatan min dooni alnnisa-i bal antum qawmuntajhaloona -
And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!?
Walootan ith qalaliqawmihi innakum lata/toona alfahishata masabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena -
?You sexually approach men, and you cut off the lineage/cut off the way of Nature, and you bring all vice/shameful vices to your society.? But the only response from his people was to Say ?Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!?
A-innakum lata/toona alrrijala wataqtaAAoona alssabeela wata/toona fee nadeekumu almunkara fama kana jawaba qawmihi illaan qaloo i/tina biAAathabi Allahi inkunta mina alssadiqeena -
If any woman or a group of women commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
Waallatee ya/teena alfahishata min nisa-ikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatanminkum fa-in shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hattayatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunnasabeelan -
And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Waallathani ya/tiyaniha minkum faathoohuma fa-in taba waaslahafaaAAridoo AAanhuma inna Allaha kanatawwaban raheeman
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Peace be upon you Leyla,
Other issues which figure much more prominently in the quranic teachings on morality and have much more importance in the book of God like e.g.telling lies, deceiving, pride are rarely discussed with that energy. Strange ..... .
Perhaps that is because there is no one who is trying to defend the perverse acts of lying, decieving and pride.
Sister, we don't have to worry about which culture was better or not, we only need to look (SEE) the facts, the clear signs before us, if you look at a plug and an electric socket, is there any cause for you to think that you should try to rub two plugs together? Do you rub two straws together or do you put the straw in the drinking glass? Do you put the Gas pump in the tank on your car, or do you rub it against another gas pump? Does the God create haphazardly? Is this all without purpose?
I think there are enough responses to your posts for you to reflect upon, so I will just add one more thing in regards to your study, take some time to ponder on the part of the story relating to the "Old Woman who lagged behind", why was she (Lot's wife) punished? This should help you to weigh the evidence. May the God increase us in knowledge and help us to be in a state of PEACE as we study and discuss these topics.