If we deny the hadiths, how do we know that the Quran we are holding in our hand
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It was suggested i create a book, with all the information presented, but I was worried the investment would be yet another loss, in both my time and printing costs, a printed book is better than an e-book, printed books are easier to reference, read and digest, anyway I'm considering the idea.
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Peace Makaveli,
You influence other minds through interaction, just as we are interacting here, we debate, we communicate, we interact, and so we may alter how others perceive certain things.
Salaam. We debate on various topics but the notion of god or gods was there since forever, judging from Epic of Gilgamesh. And while different cultures percieved gods differently common understanding of incomprehensible deity was there at one form or another, almost unconsciously (I myself do not know when exactly was I introduced to the concept of God as portrayed in my culture, but believe very early, not sure) do people of different beliefs, cultures, nations and psychotypes accept God as either existing or non-existing deity, which outside of our recognition or the lack of recogntion still remains incomprehensible to our mind.
You experience thought, therefore how can thought be outside of experience?
You cannot be sure that your thoughts, especially spontaneous thoughts, are of personal and genuine experience, which is influenced by you as a conscious being, or if they have external nature.
I can post the anarchic models, but I thought it unlikely anyone would read them, it would be an extensive amount of information.
What matters is that providing that you are capable of expanding your consciouness to high degree so that it can in fact turn the minds of others upside down and spark emotions, feelings and understandings in them, then I see no point in hiding what you have in your mind. Some people know how to be convincing, others seem to lack this talent.
Have I posted a hateful threads?
You just posted a useless thread on how Qur'an is corrupted. Thought to drop a reply at first glance, but removed my comment before posting, see no point. And I am not saying it is hateful because you said the book is corrupted and not genuine, but you provided virtually no arguments in your favor, which to me looks like it is a useless topic made merely to start another drama. That is why I adviced you to do something productive, such as post your whatever there is theory. Unless MOF's project is proved genuine in terms of his old Arabic research, which in fact is a topic of interest and I personally will keep an eye on the updates, there is no objective logic in saying something is corrupted just because someone told so, I doubt you have personally made substantial research in the field to claim so, at least. Translations are surely lies and the product of clergy or personal ideas of translators, but claiming about the language as a whole it is quite a brave claim to make.
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It was suggested i create a book, with all the information presented, but I was worried the investment would be yet another loss, in both my time and printing costs, a printed book is better than an e-book, printed books are easier to reference, read and digest, anyway I'm considering the idea.
Who cares about printing? You write a theory on financial structure which is the CODE as you claim. Why not make it .pdf and .ppt respectively, who needs paper these days /
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I could make a pdf, where would i post it, i created a website and it was attacked to destruction with the information.
As for the thread on the Qur?an, I was interested to know why, as it is fairly plain to most that the Qur?ans translations are corrupted, and a simple examination of the oldest Qur?an compared to a modern one shows differences, as to why it is repeatedly relied upon as a reliable reference, when clearly it is not reliable. Seems a reasonable question, I am genuinely interested in the reasoning behind the view it is reliable?
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For example The inheritance, Sunni Muslims claim that it's 100% fair, as the son/uncle/grandfather are responsible (also financially) for the daughter after her father dies. However, many members here would disagree due to unfairness, control of women, etc...
Peace, this thread is all over the place; daughter gets 1/2 and son/s get remaining 1/2 while uncle gets nothing.
As for the thread on the Qur?an, I was interested to know why, as it is fairly plain to most that the Qur?ans translations are corrupted, and a simple examination of the oldest Qur?an compared to a modern one shows differences, as to why it is repeatedly relied upon as a reliable reference, when clearly it is not reliable. Seems a reasonable question, I am genuinely interested in the reasoning behind the view it is reliable?
What differences besides overuse of alif in some words and initials not counted as separate verses?
Here's one of oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165 ch17v36 - ch36v55 (20 chapters ~25% of book).
download manuscript here http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
http//217.218.67.233/photo/20141123/387194_quran-sample%20.jpg
The photo shows taking a sample and using carbon-14 dating on three samples of the manuscript parchment, the researchers concluded that it was more than 95.5% likely to have originated in the period 649-675 CE.
Please show key differences or let me know if you like to see any particular page?
https//s26.postimg.org/kgu75hvop/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch17v35-46.jpg
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Peace Cerberus,
the very first step is to recognize your true nature, from that you can develop the skill of reasoning, no one can reason without learning the skill, the easiest method is to use the trivium, reasoning is the foundational tool to establish belief, for example does any evidence at all exist to support the idea of a god entity, the answer is always no, reason would then ask if no god what is the nature of reality.
I do not wish to come across aggressively or arrogantly, if I do it is not intentional, I am not trying to be abusive, I am simply trying to help.
The second thing to master the self is to understand and practice virtues, virtues used to be know by certain cultures but religions and hierarchy (because hierarchy removes community) remove virtues, if you master virtues you create a state of innocence of the self, and this is the goal.
I believe we have some common ground, you understand many things correctly already.
There is the material self, the one from this world, and that desires this world. The body with all its complexity and sophistication. And there is the spiritual self, this one isn't obvious and it's commonly called the soul. However this one is really not obvious and the only way to have a feel of it is by reflecting on yourself and actions.
In my experience the only way that I could affirm with no doubt this "duality" of existence is by reflecting on my actions and thoughts, sincerely, with a clear heart, only to find that there is something still and subtle, incorruptible, peaceful, and steadfast to the truth, that tells me, whenever I listen, that "This is right" and "that is wrong". This is what I refer to as Consciousness, the conscience, I believe this one exist within all being, though most completely ignoring it, because of the influence of the "other self".
So why am I doing this or that ? What drives me to want this or that ? This led me to recognize the material self and all that it desires. Most are completely slaves to it. And I understand because I was born with it and part of my goal is to free myself. Free myself and see what happens, I'm quite curious. This journey seems worth it.
So my "religion" is pretty simple, follow the conscience and try not to compromise.Notice I haven't spoken of a god or anything, but I know god is behind the Consciousness.
Stories like the one of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil hints that we are not like other creatures and that we have something that they don't have, perhaps the most valuable thing in our creation is that conscience we have. The spirit of God.This is your 2 points according to my experience and knowledge up until today.
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Peace Cerberus,
the body is a perceptual form just like everything else, if that perception is damaged the consciousness adjusts its perception to accommodate that damage, it is all linked to belief.
In truth the body is no more real than anything else, however thought is the only real there is, therefore thought is real.
All the perceived reality is sophisticated and complex, but this is a low density of perception, we experience in this perception a tiny percentage of the available patterns of energy (thought) that mostly pass unnoticed around us.
It is very easy to know what is good and what is damaging if you understand virtue, the real practice of Muslims would have been the practice of innate virtues, the actions make the Muslim not the words, and through actions we develop the self.
We can master the actions of virtue and establish a state of innocence.
Recognize the perceptual and the conscious, that is the realisation.
In the past the tree of life was anarchy and the tree of death hierarchy, not good and evil, evil and good can always be subjective, and what may be good for one, or a group may in turn be very very bad for others, this is why the anarchic community is the foundation, as all must be accountable for their actions, no sovereigns, politicians, billionaires, bankers, or whatever, should be above account as is the case presently, all are equal in account.
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Peace Cerberus,
the body is a perceptual form just like everything else, if that perception is damaged the consciousness adjusts its perception to accommodate that damage, it is all linked to belief.
In truth the body is no more real than anything else, however thought is the only real there is, therefore thought is real.
All the perceived reality is sophisticated and complex, but this is a low density of perception, we experience in this perception a tiny percentage of the available patterns of energy (thought) that mostly pass unnoticed around us.
It is very easy to know what is good and what is damaging if you understand virtue, the real practice of Muslims would have been the practice of innate virtues, the actions make the Muslim not the words, and through actions we develop the self.
We can master the actions of virtue and establish a state of innocence.
Recognize the perceptual and the conscious, that is the realisation.
In the past the tree of life was anarchy and the tree of death hierarchy, not good and evil, evil and good can always be subjective, and what may be good for one, or a group may in turn be very very bad for others, this is why the anarchic community is the foundation, as all must be accountable for their actions, no sovereigns, politicians, billionaires, bankers, or whatever, should be above account as is the case presently, all are equal in account.
Do not forget to teach them our minds are attached to an animal and its instincts are which causes us to not function perfectly when they influence our mind and the world provides stimulus for that. Real or imagined, it has a distinct effect on the mind.
You must focus on the essential and skip the non-essential, if you are going to teach people spiritual depth. The above is the most important teaching there is to begin with.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Evil is subjective, yes. But the Semitic Zalam word means "ignorant/dark/dim-witted" in the place of evil. What is evil is deeds which have no intelligence in them, being merely done due to weakness of the mind. Even sinning is evil because it is done in ignorance. Evil is something deconstructing, causing a retardation, but it is perhaps better to use the word bad.
Good is the straight opposite, it is intelligence or being conscious. Good is development, anything which leads to mental development is good.
So speak of good versus bad instead and equal them to development or construction versus retardation or deconstruction/demolition.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
There is the material self, the one from this world, and that desires this world. The body with all its complexity and sophistication. And there is the spiritual self, this one isn't obvious and it's commonly called the soul. However this one is really not obvious and the only way to have a feel of it is by reflecting on yourself and actions.
In my experience the only way that I could affirm with no doubt this "duality" of existence is by reflecting on my actions and thoughts, sincerely, with a clear heart, only to find that there is something still and subtle, incorruptible, peaceful, and steadfast to the truth, that tells me, whenever I listen, that "This is right" and "that is wrong". This is what I refer to as Consciousness, the conscience, I believe this one exist within all being, though most completely ignoring it, because of the influence of the "other self".
So why am I doing this or that ? What drives me to want this or that ? This led me to recognize the material self and all that it desires. Most are completely slaves to it. And I understand because I was born with it and part of my goal is to free myself. Free myself and see what happens, I'm quite curious. This journey seems worth it.
So my "religion" is pretty simple, follow the conscience and try not to compromise.Notice I haven't spoken of a god or anything, but I know god is behind the Consciousness.
Stories like the one of adam and eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil hints that we are not like other creatures and that we have something that they don't have, perhaps the most valuable thing in our creation is that conscience we have. The spirit of God.This is your 2 points according to my experience and knowledge up until today.
Your knowledge is growing, Cerberus and positively affects your development. Congratulations.
Discover God is not beyond your self and you have let go of the Pagan god delusion too, and belittling yourself and your ability is only hurting yourself. Believe that you can instead and have faith.
Keep on the right track. Thumbs up.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith, yes you are right we are invested in the perception of the body, and all the related natures of that perception.
Evil is a consciously (intentional) morally corrupt action, but my point was not about good or evil, it was about the practice of innate virtues, these are no longer commonly pursued, and they would be fundamental to good without any concern to ponder or deliberate, in virtue you are made innocent, you need not trouble about any thing in action you do, if you have developed the practice of virtues.
People seem to be struggling to over come the animal nature as you say, that is because they have not developed the practice of virtues and they are not within a community, being in an anarchic community makes mastery of the self easy, although you couldn?t have any other type of true community, as community means common unity, and dichotomously you have hierarchical society which means division into ranks, you can therefore not have hierarchical community as their is no common unity you?re divided, one is unity the other division.
Strangely no one is ever interested to know what innate virtues are?
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being in an anarchic community makes mastery of the self easy, although you couldnt have any other type of true community, as community means common unity, and dichotomously you have hierarchical society which means division into ranks, you can therefore not have hierarchical community as their is no common unity youre divided, one is unity the other division.
There are no objective historical examples of anarchic community ever existing, except for perhaps some small communities which may also exist today such as Amish communities or perhaps some Old Believers Orthodox Christian communities https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers#Present_situation
Instead all of the history is about struggle and wars. And even fabricated history is about wars, since we have no alternative to it, unfortunately. Anyways, regarding the conceptualization of contemporary anarchic community. Say a community of 'virtuous' individuals accepted anarchic way of living, say 10 families, circa 25 people. 24 of them are plain stupid, one is a genius who comes up with all different types of theories and likes long talks about something other 24 have no clue about. Isn't it hierarchical in terms of their division in mind capacity and knowledge? Also the leadership, who is in charge, and democractically chosen by the community (and can any time become subject to exclusion or changed from the position of a community leader). Isn't leadership hierarchical even if it is created solely by pure democratic (read direct democracy) means and is constantly subject to change according to the needs of the community?
Just trying to apply logical methodology to these social structures. One of the reasons I became dissapointed in socialistic ideas previously is that they cannot be formed outside of one's idealism or once they are formed they become typically hierarchical and fascistic. There were many anarchist pursuing communistic ideas in the 19th and the beggining of the 20th century, yet what we know under abbreviation USSR is a disgrace to any socialism.
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History is written by the victors, and the victors exist through the domination of hierarchy, of course they do not advertise anarchic models, they in fact make the very term anarchic appear dangerous and violent, when in reality it is hierarchy that is very dangerous and very very violent.
I know the anarchic did exist as the anarchic models of community existed, they have attempted to invent histories to hide this understanding, however if these models existed, which they did as there is plenty of reference to them, then the so called history which contains, at that location and period, any claim of a hierarchical system, is false.
Hierarchy is all about violence; war and exploitation is the very bed rock of all dominating hierarchies.
Hierarchy and compulsion, a dominating hierarchy compels, extorts, subjugates, imposes, you can have natural hierarchies that are not imposed and forced which exist fleetingly or loosely, I am not talking about individual events but of dominating systems of control, forcing the majority to the will of the minority, for the minorities benefit and the majorities sufferance.
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Those who have overcome their animal instinct and have obviously become "angels" or better so to speak,are ramming their "virtues" down the throat of mere humans.
You know we are deluded and religious freaks. In fact our logic is non existent. How dare we even claim there is a Creator or the Creator is "absolute"!!!You are so intelligent and have worked out the secret of "perfection". I guess we have to wait to see the fruit of your advance?
Common guys, basically you are just selling another false religion. All humans who think "big" of themselves sell false religions.
Where did you get your ideas from? Come on be honest? Someone else said all these and many other stuff before!
The only original is the Creator and His message is there to be worked out by each one of us.
Say your stuff if you have to,and leave folks to make their choice,like you claim you are making yours.
End of the day ,freedom of choice is for every human,do not laugh at their choices ,if you think your choice is better,it should make you a better person,one that respects all the choices,not ridicule others.
Or has this thread become a competition of who s ideas are the smartest?
A little bit of humbling oneself does good every now and then.
But ,then again it is your choice.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
There is no leadership, in fact all ships are hierarchical, they should be slave ships, why would anyone need a "leader" if they can reason, a child needs a parent, a adult does not, only children seek a leader, a parent figure.
I see you are annoyed good logic, I have asked many times over the years, present your reasoning, show your logical progression to your beliefs, if you believe in a god entity what is the reasoning you have gone through to end up at that conclusion?
You are clearly deeply invested in the god idea, and it has had a lot of supporters over the millennia, that does not mean it is true, people have and may still believe many things that are completely wrong in actuality.
I am not trying to make you angry good logic, but if you are correct and a god entity exists hierarchically, with ranks of angels, demons, and everything else religions have invented, then you should for your own sake determine impartially and objectively if that is true, through the examination of the evidence and application reason.
The choice is always yours, i am only trying to help, if you are right you may strengthen you belief through such efforts, you may work to refute what I have stated and the reasoning i have given, this is the nature of debate.
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There is no leadership, in fact all ships are hierarchical, they should be slave ships, why would anyone need a "leader" if they can reason, a child needs a parent, a adult does not, only children seek a leader, a parent figure.
On the side note, pirate ships are the most democratic and anarchic forms of governance. Don't like your stupid captain boss? Start rebellion and throw him out. That's how it worked on the pirate ships.
There has to be a leader in every collective organization to organize how to spend, harvest and divide resources. A leader is not a dictator and in case of a community a leader is not self-proclaimed but chosen via direct democratic power i.e. elected and every mature voice matters. In case it is a community then a leader should not live in a castle while serfs work their land, but should also work with people just like everyone else. His leadership is mainly organizational, because people will never come to common conclusion in case there is no external decision-making body. Even here on these forums there seldom are two people which would agree with each other.
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No brother,I am not annoyed.
I see people using hypocrisy against others and forget to check themselves first.How can we even claim that the majority are "deluded" yet live by their system. Would it not be hypocritical?
Would it not make sense to live by our system regardless of others?
Carry on conversing,I am stating my view like everyone else.
I am saying the doing is more important than the saying,for all of us.
Forgive me if you think i am aiming at you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You want to create a hierarchy with tax and government then Makaveli, you do not have a leader in an anarchic community, and do not need one. Democracy is not anarchic either, it is as a jury full consensus, and you cannot impose anything onto any community member, even if you think it is a good idea, once you impose you create division. There is no compulsion.
Without hierarch thing function considerably better, including manufacturing, you do not need a leader you need community, and community must always be limited in size, as you cannot have a community of strangers, which if you consider the pineal gland as the guide, would be around 1500 people before the community splits into two distinct communities, this also applies to bonded cooperatives, the maximum number before the cell divides is 15.
Peace Good logic,
Are you talking about the hierarchical systems, presently their is no alternative to the imposed and extorting hierarchies installed around the globe, people are invested in these and through their investment make it life threreatening to attempt to refuse their extortions. However an alternative should be created which is my focus, if an alternative is created then the excuse of having no choice is lost.
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You want to create a hierarchy with tax and government then Makaveli, you do not have a leader in an anarchic community, and do not need one. Democracy is not anarchic either, it is as a jury full consensus, and you cannot impose anything onto any community member, even if you think it is a good idea, once you impose you create division. There is no compulsion.
I don't want to establish anything, not sure where you take that from. I just point out obvious flaws of your ideas merely by reading what you have to say. I yet have to read your theory in full, I wish you'd actually post it one day, right now you only talk about anarchic communities in your every post and there is always something I can always come up with to disprove it as I can see it wouldn't work in real life. Anarchy does not mean everyone minds his own business. What you talk about is a mad max, that is where everyone would mind his/her own business, but that is not a community. Community is a collective of individuals united under common cause and under common discourse (guidance so to speak). Discourse can be spiritual, religious or ideological.
From what you say I can merely think of Mad Max, where nomads just wander around in the post-apocalyptic world and sometimes meet together to discuss territorial agenda, but otherwise they are on their own, but that is not a community. I suggest you stay with a few other people isolated at night, preferably in some extreme circumstances such as the forest without mobile communication and limited resources. See how you won't require a leader when everyone thinks of him/herself as an invididual who only uses his/her own mind for him/herself and does not need guidance or common understanding, considering how everyone sees situation differently.
Demoracy is a wide definition, I am talking about its early manifestations, such as during antiquity. Community does not need hierarchy to have a leader. There is no hierarchy when I can come to the leader and straight forward ask him questions and I don't need to wait another ten years before I can elect another one in case a community believes that current is harmful to the community.
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Rekkd,
If you are genuine and logical (as you claim), make your own thread with the 5 strongest objections to The Quran that you can possibly fathom. Not any old 5, the strongest possible you can come up with after all your research/thinking.I noticed you came up with 3. I'm still waiting for the last 2.
If you cant come up with the last 2 then please state the 3 objections you did cite are the strongest you can think of, then I will reply (in a separate thread).
