Beating around the bush and Paving the Way Forward

hlatif

thank you Omar for Great post

Hussein

Layth

Peace Omar,

Your constructive criticism is most appreciated and I hope it will lead to positive changes and developments.

I will adress a few points that came while reading

Organization name

With this in mind, I have a new suggestion of a suitable name for this new organization that would appeal to the widest range of audience possible while at the same time embodying what we truly represent. This name would be ?Revisionist Muslims? and the goal is to work towards a new ?Islamic Renaissance?

I am not to particular on any name other than that of Muslim. That we must use names for the websites is a nessesary evil, but in identifying who we are, it is not free-minders or 19ers or any other web name...It is just 'Muslims'.

Also, no matter what name you use, the people who fight you will always find a label since that is the easiest way to ignore what you say (I am refered to as a 'Qurani' by Arabic people I have spoken with even though I insist an make clear that I am a 'Muslim' and nothing but a 'Muslim'...A label helps them ignore the subject, so you cannot avoid it).

Unorthodox articles

There are still articles that one passes across which are filled with ideas or theories that have been discredited from the Quran. While many articles have lots of truth in them and we must always remain open, there needs to be vigilance from everyone to verify all claims and share them with the authors or contributors of such ideas in the nicest possible manner.

The purpose of posting a various range in to follow the true Islamic spirit of allowing people to make-up their own minds in what they will follow and what they believe is true...It is easy to make the content standard in a 'one-view' approach, but that would later on kill creative thinking and open debate...

I think articles that are totally baseless should definatly be removed once identified...But ones which are with some good content should be left to the reader to explore.

next steps

Setting up annual conferences in different parts of the world to establish a sense of community, a constitution, decide on the major path and direction in which we wish to go, and build connections

This is an excellent idea...But we remain without a base of operation, floating around in the world and in cyberspace.

Islam means a full system which includes economic, political, social, etc.

I have been with this subject since 1997, and can tell you that expecations of people are so high, but they are quickly dissapointed by the limitations of what can be done and what can't...Most end up taking what ideas they can and leave back to whatever lifestyle they began with.

We do not want people to simply feel good about themselves or pat each other on the back like the sunnis or christians who attend church or meetings and think they have done their part...This movement needs a base and I have yet to see that opening develop itself.

Print new editions of the Quran?s translation as new meanings evolve

I would say this is already an ongoing work...English edition is printed (updated every once in a while based on new understandings/meanings)...What is lacking is an English-Arabic (which exists as a word document, but I have yet to find a printer/publisher interested).

Set up consensus seeking mechanisms, voting, opinion polls etc. before deciding major decisions

If you are aware how such a mechanism can be set up and adhered to, then it is most definitly welcome.

Uniting under banner of God alone and under one organization instead of starting up different groups or forums which lead to disunity/ sectarianism

Freedom of thought/speech will lead to differences even under one name/umbrella...It is the basics that people must be commited to and agree to work with each other under regardless of all other differences.

Constantly revise any publication and engage in self-criticism so as not to introduce conflicting messages to the public.

Most definetly.

Reaching out to academics and scholars ex. interesting articles on archeology and the Quran can be introduced to scholars in the field such as historians, archeologists to advance this new correct understanding and put an end to misconceptions on our Islamic heritage. THIS POINT CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED. By getting the credible backing of academics willing to work with us, we will arouse discussion, controversy and the interest of key and moderate Islamic scholars to join our community.

Edip has similar views on this subject as yours...

Hsi aim was to adress the IslamicReform site to such an audience.

Inviting moderate Muslims and progressive Islamic organizations to our cause, working with them on common grounds, particularly on social justice issues, and ESPECIALLY pointing out that we are against any form of sectarianism and stand in solidarity with true Islam based on the infallible message of the Quran.
Actively pursuing social justice issues

Agree on both counts...Again,it is mechanisms and projects that need to be thought of and pushed through rather than advertising slogans and ideals.

Always provide comprehensive bibliographies to any published work, so as to facilitate fulfillment of 1736 and to show our transparency. This will make us more credible and appear more scholarly?.this is a problem that I have with brother Ayman?s articles in particular as well as others, which I found very interesting, plausible and insightful yet still need to research.

This point can be included in future work or exisiting work with weakness can be revamped.

If I have missed any major points, or if my opinoin is in error, then please feel free to ignore what sections I may have erred in.

Fahad1

salam dear Omar .
u have raised good points . but i havent yet read those link that u provided about salat . i will read that later .

omar wrote
i) Do not beat around the bush

All too often, on these forums we see endless arguing and beating around the bush, which only seems to obfuscate the truth and confuse the majority, without any constructive steps towards a clear Quranic perspective

They ask you about the phases of the moon! Say, "They provide a timing device for the people, and determine the time of Hajj." It is not righteous to beat around the bush; righteousness is attained by upholding the commandments and by being straightforward. You shall observe GOD, that you may succeed.

Too many times I see people whose only goal seems to be stating their opinion. In almost every post on the forum, what begins with a question in search of constructive comments and feedback, ends up in endless debating that side tracks the discussion into a completely different direction, far from what was originally meant to be discussed. For the sake of unity and for the sake of clarity please do not reply to a post introducing entirely new topics into the mix but seek to address the context of the post itself. If you are not sure about something or have nothing good to say then don?t bother replying! If you are addressing one person on a personal issue please message the person privately so as not to lengthen the thread unnecessary where people have to sift through endless commentary? This advice should be common sense to everyone. And of course, sometimes silence and patience is the best recourse

fahad- i agree .

omar wrote
ii) Kill your ego and leave it out the door

It is a common occurrence, which I believe we have all been victims of at one point or another, to attribute any wisdom or intelligent comments we make to ourselves as opposed to the source of such wisdom who bestows it on whomever He pleases. Thus we end up more interested in our own theorizing and delve into far fetched theories just to satisfy ourselves, often ignoring our own internalized biases in search of the truth. THIS IS THE SOURCE OF ALL THE ENDLESS DISAGREEMENT ON SO MANY ISSUES. Those who are sincere and want nothing but God?s guidance will seek the middle path, the path that is void of any biases or predispositions and that is open to anything, willing to recognize our own failures and limited knowledge

We thus made you an impartial community (Immatun Wasatan = the nation of the middle course), that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. . .

The reason is because God is the teacher of the Quran (551-2) and the sincere will always be able to grasp the truth (5679) when it comes to them. God thus commands us to follow this recipe, which if humbly adhered to in a tolerant manner should solve many of our outstanding problems

They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thus one very crucial point here is that we must always be the first to be willing to accept mistakes and to edit or revise any articles, posts or the positions we take?The truth is in a constant process of refinement, and as time progresses God willing, one should see less and less incoherencies in the message presented on the forum and website?That is, needless to say, if we all strictly adhere to these principles. However, unfortunately, in the real world Satan is always working on us to mislead us and this process will never be perfect. But this shouldn?t stop us from giving it our 100%!!

fahad- i agree . we should be reforming our opinions if necessary . because we know that nobody is prefect . we should listen to all opinions . members of the forum should know that we are here to discuss and learn , not to argue . the aim of a discussion should be to find the truth ,not to argue baselessly and impose our opinions .

omar wrote
ii) ?Complete? means complete!!

Any ideas or theories which try to introduce something that is not addressed in Quran should be thrown out the window. Just a reminder of a few verses stating completeness of Quran 638,114,115, 12111, 7750. This can only mean anything that is not corroborated EXPLICITLY by Quran ought to be rejected.

Allow me to elaborate with a case study

An excellent example is the idea that there are 5 prayers a day and that they ought to be observed exactly as Rashad Khalifa taught. How is this compatible with the view that Quran is complete even though we are all aware that God does not strictly state the details? The submitters respond by saying that the miracle verifies all the steps given to Abraham and since Salat was taught from the time of Abraham, despite no historical evidence to suggest that the exact steps as taught by RK have been preserved through the ages.

By relying on evidence outside Quran (in this case, multiples of 19 to confirm a set of precise ritualistic steps) we are ignoring that the Quran has all we need and that it does not prescribe the number 19 with the duty of verifying or adding things outside the Quran to its message. Please see 7431 for its limited set of duties. This point has been abused repeatedly by ?Quran Alone? followers, to introduce prophecies of earthquakes, salat rituals, new messengers etc.

fahad- i agree.

omar wrote
I thank everyone for taking the time to read this long post and look forward to your constructive comments?.it is time we unite, stop arguing with no end in sight, and purify our souls humbly before our Creator. Only by killing the ego can we have some consensus?otherwise, 10 or 20 years down the road, we will still be where we are today arguing and splitting up into different ?Quran Alone? sects. Do you not all wish to be God?s party amongst the forefront of the righteous? The party that leads our desperately hurting planet to victory and establishing God?s justice? This means we need to mobilize and engage far more fully in our society on a political level. Coherent organization is pre-requisite to this.

fahad - i agree . another thing that we should be doing is to promote fight against injustice, poverty etc in our respective societies . ppl argue endlessly over " how to pray salat , how to do hajj , how to worship ,how this , how that .." without realizing the purpose of our worship . if we are good at worshiping God and reading the koran but dont help the needy ppl around us then our worship ,i believe, is fruitless . we must try to create good communication between like minded muslims in our societies to work for common goals such as promoting charity . like i have created a Yahoo! group for pakistanis who want to help establish the sytem of God , a system of justice . you all should also try to create such communities . the good first step can be an online community for the muslims in our countries or cities . (Yahoo! is always there for that .). it is only in this way that we can move forward . not by argung .

salam.

omar_e19

Salaam Fahad,

You have made an excellent suggestion. There are so many members of free-minds on this forum from my province of Ontario, however there is no organization. I am really concerned about how there is no mobilization. God bless you for your efforts in Pakistan which is a much more difficult undertaking than in liberal western countries where people are much more used to tolerance and volunteering.

I think also we should all donate what we can to free-minds or whatever future group it will be called so we can make this organization more robust. But as a first step, I think it is important to unite 19.org and free-minds under one banner. If we are 2 internet communites professing to promote the same ideal of God Alone Quran Alone, then why not join forces? Peace,

Omar

Bahman

Peace Omar

There are so many members of free-minds on this forum from my province of Ontario, however there is no organization. I am really concerned about how there is no mobilization.

Salaam
I am one of them. )

Last night I had to use pm which regularly I do not check it .

Then I found your note about your comments exactly a month ago. I apologize for such late response and missing your post. With spring here lot of yard cleaning and etc on hand plus many posts here and there could cause such situation

I have read your post decided to response today which I found new post by brother Layth. As his opinion is important for me then I will response soon when I read his too.

Peace.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Omar,

Just wanted to make a quick correction to a statement I saw above...

Do you not realize that everyone in the heavens and the earth glorifies GOD, even the birds as they fly in a column? Each knows its SALAT and its glorification. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.

Therefore, the term salat cannot be rigidly defined as learning connection by reciting Quran and must obviously have a more inclusive meaning

Since I am one of the few who have expressed the understanding of "learning connection", which has since been clarified to "enlightenment process", I wanted to correct your statement. Salaat = Process, thats it, it IMPLIES the process of enlightenment. In the same way that "islam" means "submission", leaving one to study to find out WHAT one submits to or for. Salaat = process, and leaves it up to the student to inquire more about this process, what it entails, etc.

Regarding reading as part of the process, it is not the reading of a Physical Book, although that can be part of it , it is the reading of LIFE, the universe(Al Kitaab). All creatures do this and all know thier PROCESS (salaat).

ANy further discussion can be had in the salaat thread. I did not have time to read the entire thread here, but wanted to clarify that misunderstanding so that all was not thrown out without a clear understanding of what was being said.

Bahman

Peace. Omar

You forgive me for my short response as is not easy for me to go trough your post and others and answer all items you wrote. I read your post and responses and got a total picture of your comments and others opinion. I have talked few times with Khizer on chat line and has given my views about attempt of Edip Yuksel for reform and creating alliance by Layth.. We should stay away from what our ancestor did as they created groups and when they reached to power was corrupted and causing difficulties and bloodshed that we see daily in the news. Creating group and having power to accept our word is not the solution for changing the mentality of societies. Conferences in hotels and luxury places expenses can be used for people that are poor and hungry or do not have enough food at their place. Our conference which is our words can be transmitted to people on this screen if we move out from these locks and shell we have made for ourselves in these forums ( including new one I have created). We may have honest and clean idea for creating such groups but there is no guarantee that in future when has power to be in right path.

We are in different era of communication and this screen can be the best base for informing people.

Look at free mind which has about 800 members and only around 20 members are active and write. Of course I am not asking another 700+ to write as I can not find your post among so many topics and for anew user need lot of patience to search finding her or his question.
But if those another 700+ ( if they are believer in Quran Alone) each publish one page that most company giving it free or now blog places it can help the movement which you and me like to see moving faster.
They can publish their own or just copy and paste article they think is their voice. Such action gives more opportunity for being seen in search engine which now is over one billion users.

After many years still the sites claim Quran Alone have not linked other sites as they think that those sites do not have enough value or the webmaster do not process a phd degree.

Languages in articles day by day is going more difficult to be understand by regular educated people. They think that all people should have same level of knowledge and information which they have. We see new generation of educated scholars speaking for themselves and do not care if majority do not understand.

If any drop of water in pond try to keep itself clean then pond will be clean. If any person be educated and be informed by reasoning and wisdom then we do not need to have a group with power, politics, economy and army to invade or force others to obey our idea as the best one. Every free and democratic country rules and governs by group of minority which are elected freely by those people. Those elected people are exposing that society attitude. When Khomaini is elected to kill so many innocent people it was attitude of that nation and yet they support such system. When CA governor is a famouse movie star it show the mentality and attitude of the majority of those people and when Bush is elected same thing.

The people govern the countries by free and democratic election is symbol of that nation grow and wisdom if there is no cheating in election.

We have a big responsibility to aware uninformed of facts and truth . Such process will take long time and out of my time GW. But remember that God says majority of people are not believer and remember we are residing in a this earth that temporary is under ruling of Satan.

Internet now has its own nation and our effort should be on attracting people to our understanding and information. We should have more tolerance and give more room to others to say their words before we censure them.
Layth has used prefect words in his signature

One God, One Book, One Nation

This can be done on the www. Nation enough educated to use computer and this screen. Such nation will have its own power all around world.
They help each other and trust each other and try to change world according to his or her understanding of book which will no differ so much.
I am not sure how long each of us will be on the line as is in control of God. I have thought about it since I was connected to this screen that in future will billion believers that will support each other for higher living standard, education, health believing in one book.

Such idea initiated me to park a domain as Earth Citizen. It was few months ago when I tried to do something about it . I asked Noor if is interested to assist to build that site. He has done his best as much as he has had time. There is lot of room for everybody to participate and build such nation.

I invite all believers to assist him and will be there to give my support. My knowledge and proficiency is not enough to establish such site. There are many among us that could come with a project and layout for site and available forum same as this one for that site. I do support financially up to the time members shearing. The site belongs to nation in hand of a group of believers.

Participation and comments are welcome.

One God, One Book, One Nation

No boundary Earth Citizen
http//earthcitizen.net
Peace.
Bahman Goharzad

jonny_k

...it is the reading of LIFE, the universe(Al Kitaab).

Khi- Salam. I always see u writing the universe is Al-Kitaab. However the word 4 universe is ('aalam) which is also used in the Quran. 'kitaab' means book/scripture. It comes from the word 'kataba' meaning 2 write down so 'kitaab' means tht which is written down i.e. a book like the great Reading has been n the hafs script was the one mathematically coded with the exception of 9128&129. GOD Bless!

omar_e19

Salam Bahaman,

Thanks for sharing your views. You are absolutely right. The www is the best way to spread the message. This is in line with the prophecy of 2782....we see this process as the information superhighway is now the safest and most efficient way for people to learn share information and express "subversive" views that are against the established order...today because of the internet, people like Aidid Safar can express their views safely to millions without fear of persecution...I believe this is the full implications of 2782

I appreciate your stance of leading by first being examples ourselves and trying to bring this information out to others....But the whole point of my suggestions was to get us more organized and to start feeling like we are a nation...a confernce builds more lasting connections, ties and networking...furthermore, how do you expect us to be taken seriously as a community of believers by the rest of the world? How our we going to bring our views to the academic communities, how are we going to effectively engage in dialogue with the rest of the world? By having some organization that strictly adhere's to consensus building and the Quran as it standard (even if we dont agree on everything), then we will be taken more seriously and come out to the rest of the world more effectively...Internet is perhaps the most important tool, but it is only one tool out of a more comprehensive strategy that we should develop...You are right however, with organization, there is always the danger of greater corruption. Which is why transparency and consensus building are essential, so that what is bad can always be critiqued and rooted out.

Peace,

Omar

PS. God willing once my exams are over by the end of April, we can meet Inshallah! Initially, when I was still under the strong influence of the submitters, and praying 5 times a day, I had the impression that you were misguided, may God forgive me for such hasty judgements.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Idmkhizar,

Quote

...it is the reading of LIFE, the universe(Al Kitaab).

Khi- Salam. I always see u writing the universe is Al-Kitaab. However the word 4 universe is ('aalam) which is also used in the Quran. 'kitaab' means book/scripture. It comes from the word 'kataba' meaning 2 write down so 'kitaab' means tht which is written down i.e. a book like the great Reading has been n the hafs script was the one mathematically coded with the exception of 9128&129. GOD Bless!

The word you are stating as universe such as the verse commonly translated as "Lord of the Universe" comes from the root word meaning KNOWLEDGE. The verse should read "Lord of the Knowledgeable(those who KNOW)"

Regarding "al kitaab", yes I have no disagreement that kataba refers to writing, but you must reflect even further as this is not just a message for reading but also reflecting. The God creates through the WORD "Be and it becomes". Words or merely sounds that are agreed upon. Everything is a SOUND. The word "person" comes from "per" (through) "sona" (sound). Our Bodies are vehicles through which a sound is made. Even further reflection reveals that all things vibrate, ALL THINGS. This is how sound is made, through vibration, therfore all things are SOUNDS, therefore all things are WORDS. We can see a hint in the word that I am using, UNIVERSE (uni-one / verse-statement). Lastly, we are given a verse which helps lead us in the right direction;

(21104) A time We coil the sky/space like the scroll's coiling to the books; as/like We began/initiated (the) first/beginning creation, We repeat/return it, a promise on Us, We (E) were making/doing (it).

Above we see the comparison of the "heavens" being rolled up just like a writing(kitab). So when you see me stating "al Kitaab" as the universe, I am using the implied meaning which is the GREAT WRITING, which is all things. D

Sorry for the off topic e-mail, just had to respond to the question, I hope any further discussion of this will be addressed in a seperate thread.

Bahman

salaam Omar

furthermore, how do you expect us to be taken seriously as a community of believers by the rest of the world?
We see many on the line and many others that are not on the line that have very effective position in their community like lowers, professors, doctors.
Not many of these people even on the line have been known by internet users as they stay away from forums. We should encourage these people to join our forces already are active on the line.

How our we going to bring our views to the academic communities, how are we going to effectively engage in dialogue with the rest of the world? By having some organization that strictly adhere's to consensus building and the Quran as it standard (even if we dont agree on everything), then we will be taken more seriously and come out to the rest of the world more effectively.

I agree that there should be an organization and a system to mange such movement which a we are lacking it. We need a group of believers regardless (how they believe in Quran Alone) to cooperate and spend so much time per week or day to promote this unity trough the internet. The view of believers can be announced by members in their local network in academic communities and easies way to dialogue with world is this screen. No traveling, no expenses, and more time for preparing our agenda.
Future succeed in any firm is linking directly how this screen can be use.

Internet is perhaps the most important tool, but it is only one tool out of a more comprehensive strategy that we should develop

I agree with you. It is a tool to transfer our knowledge and information and as you say developing such comprehensive is very important and when we start there will be people with knowledge that can perform it in best manner.

Our presence on the line need to be promoted.

For example up to last week I did not know such forum exist.
http//moslem.org/fhome.asp

For now we can bring all God Alone believers published sites , blogs, forums , pages in one file to be attached to all those pages. The users specially the new one has such privilege to visit other pages without referring to bookmark.

This page will be the main one that everybody will promote it by submitting to search engines, chat rooms, and local networks in their communities.

Presence of more believers on the line could promote our cause faster and more effective.

I missed last time to visit but this time come and stay few days with me. I am sure will enjoy reading Quran beside this view.

Peace.