Guys lets all get tipsy - Alcohol is not Haram
-
Peace,
Lol, it's amusing trying to imagine the scenarios you mentioned idmkhi, maybe God should forbid idiots from going to that sort of party where they may get pumped with drugs!
If it's allowed for medical use in drinking form then whoever uses it might have a reason but then your gonna rule it out as un-medical because you all have a problem with people enjoying themselves.
The Quran speaks about wine in the hereafter, are you going to abstain then? why should you enjoy it?
Nural
-
FRIENDS!
Once again, we have flown into a debate on opinions instead of a discussion on the Quran.
Where is the objectivity? Can't we just make a list of verses and go through them all one by one, instead of going round and round in circles?
Please forgive me for my expression, but I do not approve of this random hurly burly in the least. We all came to be here because we believed that the Quran is clear. Where has that belief gone now? If we all accept that, then why can't we act a bit more mature and settle things over the Quran itself? We'll make conclusions on each verse, and then move onto the next till we all have a clear picture. As on THE THREAD of the salat section (Please check it out if you haven't seen it already... http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377), I shall act as a chairperson for the debate. On this topic though I'm afraid I cannot take either side because both arguments appear to have their weaknesses, even though I began this thread a long time ago when I first registered, thinking that the general consensus was against the prohibition of alcohol, my position is now neutral on this topic.
Instead of stretching this debate out onto other forums (Edip, with 19.org), why don't we simplify the issue and talk about it in one thread to reach one unified conclusion, rather than chatting what our personal opinions are of people who drink and people who don't. The way forward is close analysis of the words of the Quran, not debate over how someone is holding onto sectarian beliefs, or how someone is trying to fiddle their way out into being able to drink.
The verses I have come up with are as follows...
2219
443
590-91
1236
1241
1572
1667
222
4715
8325We shall discuss each of these verses in turn, beginning with 2219. If anybody feels that another verse that I may have missed should be discussed here, then please send me a PM and the verse will be added to the above list. I thank all brothers and sisters in advance (Especially our rare member Edip - please stick about here for a while my friend, your presence is much appreciated).
2219 (Start of discussion)
Progressive Muslims Translation
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.Aidid Safar Translation
They ask you about the wine (1241) and convenient times (2280). Tell them, "In both of them there are great misdemeanours and some benefits for mankind. And the misdemeanour is even greater from its benefit". And they also ask you, "What is contribution". Tell them, "To pardon (7199)". That is how God exaplains to you His signs so that you use your common sense,Before we move on, I would request people to provide their understandings of Aidid Safar's (admittedly controversial and imperfect) translation of the following words. Then we may continue the discussion on the understanding of this verse.
"Wine (1241)" - Does this work out or does it have to be an intoxicant?
"Convenient times" - Does this work out?
"To pardon" - I personally fail to understand the meaning of this portion.
-
Peace Natu,
Natu, good man, you got us back on track! God Willing we will find clarification in this study rather than division amongst us.
The verse above is clearly telling us that there is more harm than benefit, there is no doubt in that. We can see that there is more harm done to our societies by alcohol than good, I think we can all agree on this statement overall.
But there is still no sign of forbidding or prohibition or avoiding the actual drink. We are warned about the harms/bad outweighing the benefit. There has been some cross-referencing been done for the word to mean sin also. Therefore in wine/alcoholic beverages there is great sin and some benefit. That does not mean that drinking it is a sin fullstop it simply means what it says. Same with benefit, doesn't mean drinking it is beneficial. Both of these positives and negatives are involved in wine/alcoholic beverages.
Natu when it says 'khamr', I think it means intoxicants rather than just wine because the word could mean 'to cover', so anything that slows the mind can fall into the category (thats not all drugs, is it?). Why can't cocaine be used before war to increase stamina?! It could help, who knows?
Most translations I have read translate 'some benefit' but the PM is simply benefit, that's a big difference. Which is write? Come on linguists!
Nural
-
peace NA, Natu, All,
one does not need to be a linguist to work out what it is.
i cannot recommend the following site enough. i use it extensively
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Quran_study_tools.htm
by comparing several trans. we can see "some" is omitted and bracketed in some, thus its unlikely to be in the Arabic. M&S Ahmed's literal trans. is pretty decent tool for this. and its likely to be plural.I think its a good idea going through one ayat a time. From my past experience of translations, mass cross-referencing / verification is often required, unfortunately. i cannot emphasise that point enough.
Wakas
-
Thanks Wakas, the linked website is excellent!
I think its a good idea going through one ayat a time. From my past experience of translations, mass cross-referencing / verification is often required, unfortunately. i cannot emphasise that point enough.
Thats a fair point, but its the mass cross referncing that gets us anywhere doesn't it. So I don't think it should matter if it take a long time to do these things, becuyase the end conclusion will be the truth (As long as we keep comitted to the search, until all verses have been discussed).
-
Lol, it's amusing trying to imagine the scenarios you mentioned idmkhi, maybe God should forbid idiots from going to that sort of party where they may get pumped with drugs!
Khi- Salam. 1st this was only one of the many egs i gave. 2ndly GOD doesnt forbid us 2 go 2 a normal or better SEEMINGLY normal party which unfortunately later turns out 2 be a mess without our prior knowldedge.
If it's allowed for medical use in drinking form then whoever uses it might have a reason but then your gonna rule it out as un-medical because you all have a problem with people enjoying themselves.
Khi- I dont have anything against it if it's used 4 medical purpose n i think i made this clear in my previous post.
The Quran speaks about wine in the hereafter, are you going to abstain then? why should you enjoy it?
Khi-< In heaven the conditions r entirely different. Also read
Cups of pure drinks will be offered to them.
Cups of pure drinks will be offered to them.
Never polluted, and never exhausted.
Therefore the wine in heaven will have not have tht mind covering effect n thus theres no prob. Moreover the only utterance there will be peace n there wld be no more conflicts. Therefore ur comparison of paradise n earth is absurd since paradise has very different laws natural as well as spiritual. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
Wakas thank you very much for that webpage. I think most of us are willing to go through all this cross referencing to get to the bottom of this matter, it is important because there are two extreme views and we need to find a way possibly a middle way but thats obviously in favour of me rather than the strict dudes.
Whatever the truth is we shall seek it and GW find it.
Nural
-
Good evening QSX/Honkey, it looks like you made a typing error when you were registering this time round lol lol lol lol lol. Mods are requested to kick him out, I can't be bothered with him this time, we've got better things to use our energy on - he's clearly not here to understand belief in one God.
-
Salaam all,
I will just say that even if alcohol consumption isn't forbidden it doesn't mean that it's fully OK to have the habits of drinking Alcohol especially not if you concider yourself as a true believer who humble yourself in front of Allah swt.
I think Alcohol is another test from Allah to see who fall for this temptations like other temptations as cigarrettes and Marijuana, heroin.
God wants us to be patient and seek for the truth and to stay awake(be openminded) and if we drink intoxicants we cannot live up to this.
It's another fact that every single glass of wine will kill millions of your braincells ouch i think I will have my braincells intact.
I think God not make Alcohol forbidden because of the many way you can use it in medicines and as antiseptics products.
And wine can have many different kind of volumes no one have to choose the stongest wine.
And another thing I have read in Quran that the wine in paradise isn't intoxicant so it not disturb the mind what is that suppose to mean!?
I can't remember the verse but is that verse saying that we shouldn't drink intoxicant drink or what!?
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM
I created a poll regarding this topic. It can be found HERE. In my opinion, drinking alcohol is not allowed, but its use for medicinal purposes are allowed. That is why God says
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
There is a GREAT HARM but also A benefit.
