The seven ''verses'' in surah 15
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Peace Mazhar.
Here is the context;
1-Who is GOD addressing ? For me it not prophet Mohammed!!!
2-Seven(Sabaan) pairs(Mina AlMathani) 14 of what?For me it is the 14 initials -ALM,TAHA...etc-
3- Why not the prophet? For me the event is after the prophet s generation. i.e those who "Jaalu Qoran Ideen" accept Qoran only partially .they believe in abrogation!!!!
4-My argument is that GOD is speaking about those who are setting up another god beside GOD. i.e Traditional Muslims!!!! and is saying to them the proof of the Qoran is in the Initials!!!! Do you really know why? Because the Initials prove that Qoran is from the Lord of the universe.
GO on study why? Or give a better explanation of why GOD used the Initials like ALM,TAHA,...?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I think your translation is overcomplicating a verse that appears to be quite simple in syntax. I don't really see how the quran could be a clear book if we even have to treat a simple affirmation such as ''And We have certainly given you'' as a complex-compound sentence whereas the flow of the verse seems to indicate a simple conjonctive use for the word ''wa (and)'' instead of two distinct clauses unrelated to each other.
Brother good logic, this is some very interesting insight you are giving here, the only problem is that in this verse God is addressing a singular person ''ataynaKA''.
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I should have said the 14 letters of the Initials of the 29 surahs.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Peace lost.
For me the singular is not a problem. I believe GOD "Ya Beni Adam Imma Yaatiyannakum rusulun...." GOD has not finished sending "Rusulun minna"i.e still sending messengers to us?
However GOD has sent the last prophet and the last scripture Qoran to Beni Adam. So GOD is addressing a messenger.
For others ,you may be right the singular is a problem?Yes indeed the mathematical proof of Qoran is with us now.
What I mean by the Initials,here is an example
surah Q. (Qaf). The letter has no meaning but GOD has used 57 letter Q in that surah or 3x 19
The only other surah with Q as initial is TSMYSQ, also contains 57 Q, 3x 19.
Some traditional Muslims say that Q istands for Qoran. Do they mean in the two surahs there are 114 Q same as the number of surahs in Qoran? No of course not ,but they are guessing?!!!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Yes but this singular appears problematic when it is used in some instances while in others like the one you provided with Bani Adam, plural is used instead. Even if the verse is actually adressing Muhammad, it doesn't really change its meaning even if we suppose it deals with the initial letters. Also, why the use of 7 pairs instead of explicitely using 14 if the verse is really alluding to the initial letters.
As for the 114 Qaf, I always associated them with the 114 surah, and I think this is a good analogy because that would prove that surah 8 and surah 9 are separate chapters unlike some traditionalists want us to believe. One very interesting thing I noticed with numerical miracles in the quran is that there is often one element in a given miracle that further reduces the probability of it being the work of a human mind. The fact that surah 9 is distinct in having no ''basmallah'' and the use of ''ikhwan'' intead of ''Qawm'' to refer to the people of Lot in surah 50 are examples of that, as is the Sad in ''Bastatan'' in surah 7. These single elements further enhance the significance of each miracle they are involved in.
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Yes but this singular appears problematic when it is used in some instances while in others like the one you provided with Bani Adam, plural is used instead. Even if the verse is actually adressing Muhammad, it doesn't really change its meaning even if we suppose it deals with the initial letters. Also, why the use of 7 pairs instead of explicitely using 14 if the verse is really alluding to the initial letters.
As for the 114 Qaf, I always associated them with the 114 surah, and I think this is a good analogy because that would prove that surah 8 and surah 9 are separate chapters unlike some traditionalists want us to believe. One very interesting thing I noticed with numerical miracles in the quran is that there is often one element in a given miracle that further reduces the probability of it being the work of a human mind.
The fact that surah 9 is distinct in having no ''basmallah'' and the use of ''ikhwan'' intead of ''Qawm'' to refer to the people of Lot in surah 50
are examples of that, as is the Sad in ''Bastatan'' in surah 7. These single elements further enhance the significance of each miracle they are involved in.Do you know of an explanation or do you have one or an idea of why this qawm and ikhwan difference? Thank you.
Salaam
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Salam,
Note how in all instances of the expressions referring to ''the people of Lot'' in the quran, this is the only one not using the word ''qawm''. How I see it is that if the usual ''qawm'' was used instead of ''ikhwan''(brothers), the whole miracle would have collapsed. The use of ''ikhwan'' appears intentional and is a way to, like I said, enhance the significance of the miracle by reducing the probability of a human invention. God could use ''qawm'' and still make the surah with 57 qaf, but he instead used ''ikhwan'' for us to ponder upon the greatness of this miracle by using this unique instance to show how it would have been one qaf away if ''qawm'' was used intead !!! This makes the miracle even more stunning than it already is that the two surah have 57 (19x3) qaf each despite surah 42 being 2 times bigger than surah 50.
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I think your translation is overcomplicating a verse that appears to be quite simple in syntax. I don't really see how the quran could be a clear book if we even have to treat a simple affirmation such as ''And We have certainly given you'' as a complex-compound sentence whereas the flow of the verse seems to indicate a simple conjonctive use for the word ''wa (and)'' instead of two distinct clauses unrelated to each other.
Brother good logic, this is some very interesting insight you are giving here, the only problem is that in this verse God is addressing a singular person ''ataynaKA''.
I did not say "complex-compound sentence". I said it is a compound sentence. A conjunctive is used in compound sentences. It is for economy of words. The word after conjunction particle is masculine in accusative case as object of verb. The previous object of verb is feminine. These are two independent sentences rendered as compound sentence.
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Peace Mazhar.
Here is the context;
1-Who is GOD addressing ? For me it not prophet Mohammed!!!
2-Seven(Sabaan) pairs(Mina AlMathani) 14 of what?For me it is the 14 initials -ALM,TAHA...etc-
3- Why not the prophet? For me the event is after the prophet s generation. i.e those who "Jaalu Qoran Ideen" accept Qoran only partially .they believe in abrogation!!!!
4-My argument is that GOD is speaking about those who are setting up another god beside GOD. i.e Traditional Muslims!!!! and is saying to them the proof of the Qoran is in the Initials!!!! Do you really know why? Because the Initials prove that Qoran is from the Lord of the universe.
GO on study why? Or give a better explanation of why GOD used the Initials like ALM,TAHA,...?
GOD bless you.
Peace.http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/9.gif It does not mean seven pairs. Tanween is for compensation for the elided second feminine noun of the possessive phrase. If the second noun was not elided it spells http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/1.gif
Important Remember count words always appear in possessive phrase. If the counted object, second noun of construct, is feminine the count word will be masculine; and if the counted object is masculine, the count word will be feminine.
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Peace Mazhar.
I have given you my argument. To me it makes more sense than yours.
If you think yours makes better sense,and I believe you do, then that is fine by me.
However I disagree with you.
Also I have had conversations with you in the past and you stick to your view like glue,that is also fine by me.
And I am still waiting for you to explain to me why when you mention the prophet i you add" Salla allah alaihi wa sallam" and` what it means?
GOD bless you.
Peace, -
Salam,
Note how in all instances of the expressions referring to ''the people of Lot'' in the quran, this is the only one not using the word ''qawm''. How I see it is that if the usual ''qawm'' was used instead of ''ikhwan''(brothers), the whole miracle would have collapsed. The use of ''ikhwan'' appears intentional and is a way to, like I said, enhance the significance of the miracle by reducing the probability of a human invention. God could use ''qawm'' and still make the surah with 57 qaf, but he instead used ''ikhwan'' for us to ponder upon the greatness of this miracle by using this unique instance to show how it would have been one qaf away if ''qawm'' was used intead !!! This makes the miracle even more stunning than it already is that the two surah have 57 (19x3) qaf each despite surah 42 being 2 times bigger than surah 50.
Do you know of other instances in the Qur'an where ikhwan may be used to mean kawm or something akin?
Salaam
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Peace Mazhar.
I have given you my argument. To me it makes more sense than yours.
If you think yours makes better sense,and I believe you do, then that is fine by me.
However I disagree with you.
Also I have had conversations with you in the past and you stick to your view like glue,that is also fine by me.
And I am still waiting for you to explain to me why when you mention the prophet i you add" Salla allah alaihi wa sallam" and` what it means?
GOD bless you.
Peace,No, it is not like that. Studying a book is subject to accepted rules and norms. First step is to recognize the individual words. Second is to identify the grammatical units, like phrases because semantically they cannot be further broken down. Third is to determine the role/function of each entity in the sentence, fourth to determine inter-relationships and dependencies.
Then is anaphora resolution because Arabic is an agglutinative language. Referent of every pronoun in the text must be determined.
It is not sticking to any stand point. Give some argument to rebut. What is written in brackets is obviously not English word. Let it not bother you, just ignore, and see rest if you could rebut it.
You may like to put the translation of ayah to make me know what you perceive from it.
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Peace Mazhar.
This is too complicated,quote
No, it is not like that. Studying a book is subject to accepted rules and norms. First step is to recognize the individual words. Second is to identify the grammatical units, like phrases because semantically they cannot be further broken down. Third is to determine the role/function of each entity in the sentence, fourth to determine inter-relationships and dependencies.That explains my difficulty in understanding your interpretations!
Anyway,for me GOD has made Qoran easy to understand,the only valid rule is sincerity and trust in GOD Alone to explain it.As usual we end up agreeing to disagree.
Oh ,you have not mentioned why "Saal Allah Alaihi Wa Sallam" ? You know the why and what it means? Or do you want another thread for it?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Note how in all instances of the expressions referring to ''the people of Lot'' in the quran, this is the only one not using the word ''qawm''. How I see it is that if the usual ''qawm'' was used instead of ''ikhwan''(brothers), the whole miracle would have collapsed. The use of ''ikhwan'' appears intentional and is a way to, like I said, enhance the significance of the miracle by reducing the probability of a human invention. God could use ''qawm'' and still make the surah with 57 qaf, but he instead used ''ikhwan'' for us to ponder upon the greatness of this miracle by using this unique instance to show how it would have been one qaf away if ''qawm'' was used intead !!! This makes the miracle even more stunning than it already is that the two surah have 57 (19x3) qaf each despite surah 42 being 2 times bigger than surah 50.
26105 deny she qawmu/folk Noah the transmitters
26106 when said to them brother theirs Noah that not righteous being26123 deny she Aad the transmitters
26124 when said to them brother theirs Hud that not righteous being26141 deny she Thamud the transmitters
26142 when said to them brother theirs Salih that not righteous being26160 deny she qawmu/folk Lot the transmitters
26161 when said to them brother theirs Lot that not righteous being114 chapters how many expect multiple on average in any ch # letters ~6?
peruse 114 arabic pages/whatever count # qaf then report # of multiples?peace
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I did not say "complex-compound sentence". I said it is a compound sentence. A conjunctive is used in compound sentences. It is for economy of words. The word after conjunction particle is masculine in accusative case as object of verb. The previous object of verb is feminine. These are two independent sentences rendered as compound sentence.
I'm still inclined that the flow of the verse suggests that the seven ''mathan'' and the quran are two distinct and mutually exclusive elements. The verse looks simple enough, I don't think there's a need to break it down to this level of detailed linguistic analysis. It seems more likely that it is the traditional way of thinking that makes us believe this verse is referring to surah 1.
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26105 deny she qawmu/folk Noah the transmitters
26106 when said to them brother theirs Noah that not righteous being26123 deny she Aad the transmitters
26124 when said to them brother theirs Hud that not righteous being26141 deny she Thamud the transmitters
26142 when said to them brother theirs Salih that not righteous being26160 deny she qawmu/folk Lot the transmitters
26161 when said to them brother theirs Lot that not righteous being114 chapters how many expect multiple on average in any ch # letters ~6?
peruse 114 arabic pages/whatever count # qaf then report # of multiples?peace
These are referring to Lot, or the other prophets, as their brother, thus they're not instances of the expression ''the people of''.
As for the number of chapters having nx19 qaf, we should indeed expect 6 from a statistical point of view. If I recall correctly I know of at least one other surah with a number of qaf that is a multiple of 19, but I didn't do the count for every surah. But the thing with this numerical miracle is that not only is the number of qaf in surah 42 and 50 a multiple of 19, it is also the same multiple (19x3 = 57) for both surah despite surah 42 being twice as long as surah 50. -
Do you know of other instances in the Qur'an where ikhwan may be used to mean kawm or something akin?
Salaam
From memory there aren't no other instance in which the term ''ikhwan'' or any other term is used to refer to ''qawm of ''. The only other word used is ''as7ab'' (the companions) but it is never used alongside a prophet's name. It is instead associated with places, for example ''as7ab al-kahf'' (the companions of the cave).
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Salam,
I don't know if this has been covered in some other topic but I would want to know what people here think about it. The verse in question is verse 1587 (hafs reading), which is translated by most traditional translators as something like that (sahih international) And We have certainly given you, , seven of the often repeated and the great Qur'an.
The word they translated as verses (or often repeated verses) is mathaan. Traditionalists say that this verse refers to surah 1, of which they deem the verses as often repeated due to its reading in every unite of ritual prayers. They also use this verse to add weight to the claim that the way they pray is the correct one. However, since surah 1 is of course part of the quran, the last part of the verse ''and the great quran'' wouldn't make sense if the seven ''mathan'' are indeed refering to surah 1. Also note the use of the word ''mina (from/of)'' clearly indicating that there are more ''mathan'' but Muhammad was only given seven of them.
To prove that 1587 is referring to first Surah, hadithis have made following efforts in two versions of Quran
Hafs version has 7 verses in Surah 1 counting bismillah .... as verse #1
Warsh version has 7 verses in Surah 1, not counting bismillah ... as verse #1 but dividing last verse into 2 to make a total of 7 verses.
1587
Yousaf Ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
He adds "verses" in brackets whereas Arabic Text does not have the word "verses".Saba' means 7 and it can also be used to denote several. The context is giving examples from history of downfall of nations. Is this verse referring to repeated history of downfall of nations as given in the context and Quran is given, to follow it and to avoid such downfall.
Parwez Ahmad translated this verse as under
We have given to you directives in the Quran and annals of history which repeats itself, in support thereof.
Dr Shabbir has translated it as
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have
given you this Sublime Qur'an that defines the laws of the rise and fall of
nations.Peace
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To prove that 1587 is referring to first Surah, hadithis have made following efforts in two versions of Quran
Hafs version has 7 verses in Surah 1 counting bismillah .... as verse #1
Warsh version has 7 verses in Surah 1, not counting bismillah ... as verse #1 but dividing last verse into 2 to make a total of 7 verses.
1587
Yousaf Ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
He adds "verses" in brackets whereas Arabic Text does not have the word "verses".Saba' means 7 and it can also be used to denote several. The context is giving examples from history of downfall of nations. Is this verse referring to repeated history of downfall of nations as given in the context and Quran is given, to follow it and to avoid such downfall.
Parwez Ahmad translated this verse as under
We have given to you directives in the Quran and annals of history which repeats itself, in support thereof.
Dr Shabbir has translated it as
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have
given you this Sublime Qur'an that defines the laws of the rise and fall of
nations.Peace
George Sale
We have already brought unto thee seven verses which are frequently to be repeated, and the glorious Koran.
John Medows Rodwell
We have already given thee the seven verses of repetition and the glorious Koran.
Elisions
It is made explicit at the very outset of the Divine Discourse that Arabic is a pro-drop language. Taking care of elisions in the source text and incorporating it in target language text are important to correctly convey the perception embedded therein.
Ellipses at the sentence level is distinguished from other types of omissions by the condition of recover-ability. The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recover-ability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
The indicator of first elision is spelling of word http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/9.gif
It gives the count seven of feminine object. Default spelling is http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.029/02.%20Saba%20Seen%20Ba%20Ain%20Seven/1.gif
Cardinal number and the counted object always find mention as possessive phrase. Like
When definite it will find mention in adjectival phrase; like
For recovering the elided word, assistance should be taken from Qur'aan and one should not conjecture by imaginative flights.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.101.gif
Except the first object of verb other words are identical. Here cardinal number for count of feminine objects is 9 but without tanween because counted object is mentioned.