Are these scientific mistakes ???
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I have a problem with anything 'public'. Who will execute the lashes? The leader? Caliph? Mr. President? Who has elected him/her? Which drives made people accept his/her authority? Hierarchy and the need of the feeling of personal protection? Public punishments are the signs of the community, and I am of opinion that anything spiritual is against any form of society. Person with faith is a citizen of the world, he/she can never be a patriot of any state, since worshiping the flag is the same as worshiping the idol.
It does not mean people will abandon society and governments, there will always be states. But people who are seeking spiritual growth or the faith in God should not execute anything physical against anybody, even fornicators. It is between you and God, nobody has the right to be judge, while the civil judge is a person of authority and authority and hierarchy is clearly instinctive. So there is nothing I believe dedicated to God alone in case public punishments are done. Same as I don't believe there have to be any animal sacrifices in the name of God.
How does one punish for something done privately?
Public orgies dedicated to gods are the same as public punishments dedicated to gods.
Exactly! That's the point.
The state authority and personal faith are incompatible.
Not much. The entire faith is not personal.
Public punishments is a sigh of authority and authority is about herding the sheep. That is why people translate ma malakat aymanakum as girl slaves, because that's what they want - to have girl slaves as their war bounty. That is why majority's views on Heaven and Hell is purely instinctive. Heaven = free and constant pleasure (mostly masculine pleasure btw), Hell = constant pain, not good.
I suppose that is why we don't agree with them?
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I do nto hink you got it. Youhave to read the whole set of ayas till 30 to get the picture of what it is all about. Which is about thing the best of people and about respecting intimacy and not slandering, particularly women. Peopleseem to have got like hypnotized by the first ayas of 24 and that is not it. You have to read on nd realise what the Qur'an s doing. It is in fact withdrawing any power from hearsay and people to harm other people particularly women.
But it seems that as soon as we see the first little thing that is not "civilised" enough we loose all rationality and capacity to think through and get happy with whatever nonsense.
Really, many, many, many times inthsi forum not only I do not see any more entlightment amongs "qur'an only" than amonst sectarians. Some times many "sectarians" are far more reasonable than some of the things that people trade here. Their mental picture of what is really revelation and what is not may be blurred, but they have far more common sense and generosity of spirit.
This is not particularly about you, Man of Faith (save for the lashes) but in general. Sometimes I get the feeling that some prople are here just because this is a more "select" place than "sectarian places" but that they do not have to change any narrowness of mind and spirit.
Salaam
Point is that I do not believe it says anything about lashes, but I was speaking hypothetically based on common understanding among people. I am trying to show points of logic in order to show the inconsistency. I am not trying to change the Islam people adhere to, only giving people another perspective and perchance they shall understand Quran is indeed grossly misinterpreted, not only lightly and thus pursue the truth, with or without my help, I do not care as long as people become more sound mentally.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
I do not believe Quran advocates a physical punishment such as lashing though.
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?Have you understood what I said?
It does not matter whether it is lashing or whatever it may meand the j-l-d thing. It is not something that is presented in order to be done, but that is presented in order to prevent that people slander, gossip in destroy reputations and people, particularly women.
Salaam
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It does not matter whether it is lashing or whatever it may meand the j-l-d thing. It is not something that is presented in order to be done, but that is presented in order to prevent that people slander, gossip in destroy reputations and people, particularly women.
Salaam
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That is exactly how I see it, thank you!
Peace!! -
?Have you understood what I said?
It does not matter whether it is lashing or whatever it may meand the j-l-d thing. It is not something that is presented in order to be done, but that is presented in order to prevent that people slander, gossip in destroy reputations and people, particularly women.
Salaam
Elaborate? How is it not presented as injuction to execute 100 lashes?
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Elaborate? How is it not presented as injuction to execute 100 lashes?
Can you testify infront of God for your 4 witnesses that they are being truthful?
2408 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
Peace.https//media.giphy.com/media/l0NhXTZ7et5sf84gw/giphy.gif
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Can you testify infront of God for your 4 witnesses that they are being truthful?
2408 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
Peace.Four witness my butt. She will never get that many 'witnesses' in her favour behind closed doors. Not to mention most people can be jealous and won't testify even if they saw. Something is fishy about these verses.
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Four witness my butt. She will never get that many 'witnesses' in her favour behind closed doors. Not to mention most people can be jealous and won't testify even if they saw. Something is fishy about these verses.
Right on!
Peace.
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Elaborate? How is it not presented as injuction to execute 100 lashes?
I said answering Man of Faith to read the whole series of ayas till about aya 30.
If somebody, getting that far does nto see what the ayas are about, it well be useless to go on exlaining.
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I said answering Man of Faith to read the whole series of ayas till about aya 30.
If somebody, getting that far does nto see what the ayas are about, it well be useless to go on exlaining.
I understand but the problem of lashes is still there no matter what. If it is between God and the people it should be enough. If they testify in the name of God and lie, there will be curse upon them, that should be enough, why lashes and witnesses? Again this community type of thing.
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Oh wow, really? Can we see the data from the experiment you have done to come up with this conclusion?
I think what RT is trying to say is there is nothing in the Quran beyond what was known to man at that time.
If the Quran was a book science then you'd expect the basics like the relative size of the earth to the sun or that the earth would look like a star itself from another planet etc.
The point is Muhammed wasn't given any advanced information about the world, otherwise he'd be able to claim a miracle.
His mission was to convince through the power of argument alone, rather than miraculous knowledge. -
I was thinking on the lashes and 545 came to me. You have the right for an eye for an eye but whoever resists his/her right for retribution and instead forgives in charity for him/her is expiation.
I might be wrong but I think the Qur'an deliberately misguides many people by making them think that it has certain harsh punishments but in reality it is a test for your Being i.e. Spirit (ruh), and if you resist the temptation (and the feeling of revenge is very temptive for most) then you have basically passed the test.
Hm.....
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I think what RT is trying to say is there is nothing in the Quran beyond what was known to man at that time.
I don't think he meant that. He clearly stated "7th century".
The point is Muhammed wasn't given any advanced information about the world, otherwise he'd be able to claim a miracle.
His mission was to convince through the power of argument alone, rather than miraculous knowledge.The point is that it is weird to talk about something without knowing it properly. Quran is a manual and so is a book called BMW manual.
Now imagine me reading that BMW manual to come up with a conclusion about whether it is good and relevant. But alas, I never tried using that book for my car. It becomes even more embarrassing when I make that comment in front of a bunch of lifelong BMW enthusiasts.
Well, you can punish yourself with depression, it is way worse than lashes yes
I agree P
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I was thinking on the lashes and 545 came to me. You have the right for an eye for an eye but whoever resists his/her right for retribution and instead forgives in charity for him/her is expiation.
I might be wrong but I think the Qur'an deliberately misguides many people by making them think that it has certain harsh punishments but in reality it is a test for your Being i.e. Spirit (ruh), and if you resist the temptation (and the feeling of revenge is very temptive for most) then you have basically passed the test.
Hm.....
Wishing for revenge is instinctively charged and it does not help anything other than please the most primitive part of yourself. It is not right that a culprit should be punished, but it is a solution to reduce the primitive suffering in a victim, if necessary, but best would be to take the culprit and make a better person of him/her. Being incarcerated is not necessarily a punishment, but the person might be a danger to themselves and others and the person should be attempted to be reformed while not free and the person must not necessarily be under harsh conditions as in usual punishments but more something which stimulates reformation.
Punishment is always the wrong direction, there is no good in it, but measures may be necessary to ensure the safety of all individuals.
Sadly, our communities are breeding grounds for individuals with criminal behavior and if the world was a warmer place then there would be much fewer of them. Because there are people we let run off from the community and live chaotic lives then this is a result. We are responsible ourselves for those we seek to punish and then we seek revenge.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Wishing for revenge is instinctively charged and it does not help anything other than please the most primitive part of yourself. It is not right that a culprit should be punished, but it is a solution to reduce the primitive suffering in a victim, if necessary, but best would be to take the culprit and make a better person of him/her. Being incarcerated is not necessarily a punishment, but the person might be a danger to themselves and others and the person should be attempted to be reformed while not free and the person must not necessarily be under harsh conditions as in usual punishments but more something which stimulates reformation.
Punishment is always the wrong direction, there is no good in it, but measures may be necessary to ensure the safety of all individuals.
Sadly, our communities are breeding grounds for individuals with criminal behavior and if the world was a warmer place then there would be much fewer of them. Because there are people we let run off from the community and live chaotic lives then this is a result. We are responsible ourselves for those we seek to punish and then we seek revenge.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelI don't think Qur'an has an established community system within itself. You can't live as a community not to mention a state relying on Qur'an alone. Not only that but other teachings, such as Jesus's teachings, they are insufficient to build a governmental system. You can build the state based on the Qur'an + sunna + tafsir, but never Qur'an alone. I have noticed that most people (majority of people living on Earth) can't imagine their lives without the government. I had a thorough discussion with a Muslim person for the last few days, and was introducing her the Qur'an. She really has no clue and fails to accept Qur'an is not based on the governance and power, when I try to explain her. And when I did sort of prove her how unreliable the sunna is (from different positions, it is hard to prove that to someone who has been through muhhamedianism for years, but even a 5 year old can understand the bullshit of sunna), but she still was like "how can we live without the state?". Well, one thing is she is a woman with kids, so it is logical she needs a safe environment to raise her brats. But anyways.
That being said, I rely on the understanding that all the community-related things including punishments are given as injuction for those low in spirit only. In many verses after the punishment there is often a part of the verse that says "but if you resist the temptation / forgive / have mercy / forgive with chairy" etc. which basically says there are two type of people
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pro-government fascists, fans of caliphates and empires, police officers and governmental informers who snitch on their neighbors and so on - this category of people can be viewed as comfort seekers, because the fake feeling of saferty the government (or basically any community from a tribe to the empire) gives you is what makes people falsely believe they are present within their comfort zone. These people will also seek caliphates, idolworshipping, Temple building, and mass sacrificing if they are religious, which is basically what mohhamedianism is all about, but also other religions, yet I believe mohhamedianism is the most bloodthirsty of all three abrahamic.
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human beings who are tired of being "the lost sheep of the Israeli tribe" and are trying to resist any urge or temptation to control anyone (seek hierarchy or hierarchal relations) or punish someone (establish power over another person or land), no matter how bad the person is. This group of people I believe may expel a criminal from the community or, in most cases, leave his/her presense so as not to be negatively influenced by the criminal as is also suggested in the Qur'an ch.5 for instance, but this group of people will never wish to support the penitential welfare thing when criminals are isoleted in jail while the rest of the society has to pay for their living for years.
It still need to learn more closely but I am now almost convinced the Qur'an itself is a trial, and many verses are the trial. Weak beings who seek worldly will fail everytime a situation which is described in a certain verse comes up, but those looking for spiritual development will win in the end. One basic premise here is the fact that the Qur'an says that we own nothing of what we believe we own. We do not own women (even wives), children, land, state, property or anything. That is our illusion of bellonging. That is why creating the system which operates with civil punishments and hierarchy is instinctive (I believe it is a part of the survival instinct), we are here temporarily so punishing one person does not work, there will always be criminals. But forgiving and letting go that is very hard for most people, only outstanding invidividuals will win. Qur'an allows certain punishments but for weak beings only who have no power of the mind or are weak in judgement (al-phyl also popularly translated as the elephant).
And most people will either not understand what I am talking about here or find other excuses why that might be wrong, which it might I am not claiming I am completely correct but I feel close. Many will call bullshit to this, but that is the reality of society.
I mean just look at this, sahih international traditional translation So when you meet those who disbelieve , strike necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either favor afterwards or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. That . And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them , but to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.
If a person dies while resisting evil he basically wins the test, but loses his life. But those who like wordly they will of course do as "commanded" i.e. fight, take captives and ransom them. And of course you can't take captives without some sort of the state and the army. That is why it always seemed as nonsense the idea of "defensive wars" and the "community of the believers" some people like Sam Gerrans propagate. Many Qur'an alone followers actually love the idea that Qur'an criticizes transgressors but allows defensive wars, which in fact is also a test. There is no defensive war, you have nothing to defend, except your own life, which is mostly your body as a part of the wordly matrix. And also because defensive wars are hypocritical. Imagine another tribe/state introduces some sort of economic sanction against the community, how will they react? They can as well attack them physically in turn, which contradicts the eye for an eye wisdom and also far outweights any possible economic damage. But they can say they attacked us first . That is why the community of the believers is a myth. We can still live as a small community if we rent the land and live like a community, that is possible, but we will also remain a part of the sovereign state, we just rent a part of what they claim is "their territory".
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Unfortunately, without an equal level of the minds within a community it is more efficient to maintain a community system. What I am saying is the human is more efficient and developmental with leadership, because of each individual within the community itself. There is always going to be someone who is more mentally superior than others and this one is best suited to be a leader. And a leader is the same as a guide, someone who can coordinate the community's affairs. In the best of worlds this person is someone who is not answering to bodily instincts whatsoever, which in superstitious belief would be God, but since God is just a delusion in terms of lending assistance that way, then it has to be someone who is capable of emulating God.
This governance is probably a utopia for as long as mankind does not acknowledge their own body is their greatest weakness, but it is what would turn the world around for the better if people would begin to listen to the leader.
Anyways, the government is for the protection of each citizen, a human community would not function without a government because of the before mentioned reason. An anarchy only works if every person is always going to be following goodly behavior, leading themselves forward, but that is never going to happen as long as people accept to listen to their body's instinct. Because that is not going to happen the community needs policing, an enforced law, justice system/correctional department and trustworthy people who coordinate societal functions etc, i.e. you need a government. An anarchy is going to end in chaos and eventually be annexed by people who seek as assume control and then the people who lived in the anarchy will live under a foreign government who enforce their laws on them (perhaps a dictatorship), because they could not or did not not possess a sovereign state. Everything of this is possible to be simulated in the mind and it is quite logically obvious. Anyone who proposes this type of community is very shortsighted and naive, not thinking it through.
Of course, governance of a human community is not in the interest of Quran as this is not what it is intended to teach. It does teach a human individual to grow to new levels in order to use their mind to do things such as guide people, indirectly, by elevating their being and strength of mind.
If to summarize what the book is teaching it is to be, how to be and it is actually quite simple because the main factor to be concerned about is the bodily influence on the mind. It only takes accepting that the truth is so and then actively reform. Just as this, Quran could be filled on an A4 page, but it says the same thing many many times over and over again in different ways, mainly teaching the reader how to penetrate mental barriers of other people since it already assumes the reader knows what it is saying from just a few pages.
Okay. Now I referred to Quran as saying something else than the commonly interpreted version, so if you must so ban me, o administration of the forum.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Unfortunately, without an equal level of the minds within a community it is more efficient to maintain a community system. What I am saying is the human is more efficient and developmental with leadership, because of each individual within the community itself. There is always going to be someone who is more mentally superior than others and this one is best suited to be a leader. And a leader is the same as a guide, someone who can coordinate the community's affairs. In the best of worlds this person is someone who is not answering to bodily instincts whatsoever, which in superstitious belief would be God, but since God is just a delusion in terms of lending assistance that way, then it has to be someone who is capable of emulating God.
I agree, there is no way a community of people can exist without government. There will always be government and governance. But everyone knows about religious principles just as every human being on Earth has heard about God in one way or the other. And there are many teachings available, mostly distorted, yet available, not limited to the Qur'an. Most people won't read the Qur'an let alone try to understand it in its native language, but there has to be other information of their culture which teaches the same or almost the same. At some point the system we are born and raised in can be seen as a trial, but most people fall for patriotism or other cultural or religious dogmas i.e. 'WE' as opposite to 'US' ideology.
I was not and will never call for an other form of government or anarchy, regime change will not accomplish quality changes I believe. But what I am saying an enlightened individual does not seek power and hierarchy as one of his/her primary objectives, which in turn means that he/she is not seeking a political position or a way to start a business and exploit others. So everyone will be raised in a society and under government, that is not a choice, it simply works this way. But some people can enlighten themselves to the point they realize that the wordly life is in vain and seek enlightenment instead. That is where the scriptures come in places, but, at the same time, it is very hard to understand the initial message due to linguistic and artificial distortions, which happened over ages.
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At the same time it is not logical to say the verse (242) was added later...
Peace, all the words are there along with punishment mentioned...
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