Abortion?
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??? Are you saying there's nothing wrong with late-term abortion?
what I am saying I say.
It is a question of terminology not of abortion or not abortion.
As to late term I have said all about that in my previous posts.
However in your question there appear clearly the manipulations to which "antiabortionists resort" in order to muddle reasoning of people while upholding their views of any abortion is murder because what is nto born is child. It is not. When and if it is born it will be a child, but before that it is not. Women exect a child, but before it is born they are just expecting, they do not have child.
Muddling language is a way to muddle issues and get on top.
Again, read my rpevious posts so you do not ask questions which have already been answered and so that you do not have to act so shocked.
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Therefore according to "huruf" who advises women/anyone that any baby even at nine months pregnancy or the day before its birth is not human and can be discarded/aborted i.e. murdered -- that is false, vile, and evil advise with very dire consequences.
Read carefully prior posts and "look into it" before anyone takes your advise and condemns themselves as well.
You know Noon, I appreciate you as a poster generally but in this matter you are showing the bad faith and dirty tricks which are usual with the "antiabortionists crusaders". To be on top is the overriding question and putting women into their place the aim of the whole exercise.
You lie, I never said that. I said other things. Because you trick you call a fetus a child and from there on you put anything into the mouth of anybody.
No matter how deeply you feel in your crusade, as I have said in a previous post indepndently of any other question, an unborn will become a child when and if it is born, before that it is not a child, women expect a child, but before birth they do not have a child.
No dirty trick will make it a child. As to being human.?Have you become nuts? A fingernail is human, anything in a human body is human, it does not have to be a child to be human. Even a woman is human. Surprising eh? But of course not as much human as an unborn. Unborn are more human than their mothers, that is clear. Far, far more human.
Don't worry, once you establish slavery, not even men will be free of it. You think you can trample on women remorselessly and without consequences. You are wrong There are always consequences. And those who kill people are mostly men, and althought they kill many women, they still kill more men than women. Look well out who is your enemy. Although you as all men and women know it already, but pride comes before reason.
I do not kid myself that you (general you "antiabortionists" want to save what you call children. Again, as I said it is as chenobil It exists where it is useful to fight a the war you (general you) are into, but if not, it falls in the hole of memory and nobody gives a damn. It is the same with abortion who cares about zygotes, embryos, or fetuses. They ar miscarried evryday without anybody watching for it to save them or cry for them and their demise. But when it is a question that any woman would have a say on her destiny and body ?????CRUSADE!!!!!.
Why don't you go guard at the doors of brothels and prevent abortions instead of paradin g selfrighteous nonsense? Do you think men visit brothels in order to procreate?
HYPOCRITICAL yes, completely HYPOCRITICAL. FILTHY HYPOCRISY.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions, of course. But aborting in late pregnancy is virtually the same as if the newborn baby was killed, that is only logically consistent and the baby was only being finalized in the final steps of development, and it can survive even if taken out prematurely, reaching the missing development in the outside environment.
The matter of abortion is a moral question and not a religious one and I do not care about what Quran allegedly says about it. We are equipped with a mind in order to take advantage of it and it can grow wise/witted through logic.
Without emotions involved, an abortion or even killing a born baby does not matter much or even killing one of ourselves. Despite if you kill a baby while it is in the uterus, there will be plenty of other offspring to safeguard the stream of potential hosts for our souls. From that point of view it is irrelevant, if you kill a baby, the same soul which was going to be or was inserted into that very body you killed is going to be inserted into another and so problem solved, you have not ruined a potential life, but you are disrupting it through your vanity, for abortion is a consequence of vanity, because you wanted to feel pleasure without the worries of a baby, but fate caught you and you were with baby.
Mating is meant to procreate and nothing else. The other part is something you have invented with your mind. You have sex because you are driven strongly towards mating through the instinct, that is a drive hard to resist and you wish to do it. Its natural reason is for you to bring new life and this is why you have the drive as an animal and because you have a mind the drive is also pleasing to it. It does not make it a reason to use it for vain purposes.
Condoms, p-pills and other preventions are human inventions and you cannot associate God with it. God did not create you to add a shield of plastic to your stick when you insert it into the hole. Your sex drive was made so that you feel compelled to procreate and since you have a mind you can control where and when you do so.
Giving in to the sex drive beyond for procreation does make it into an uncontrollable habit and you seek means to do it more and you invent things like a condom to do it.
Obviously, a human is intended to control the sex drive, because otherwise they would end up with an army of kids.
But God has not sponsored you to invent things like the condom. Do not associate that with God.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
I am glad my mother did not abort with me when I was still a fetus. Thanks to that I am alive.
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Man of Faith, that is the case of all of us, which goes to show we should not police women They do bring us into the world without the help of crusaders.
God knows, crusaders love themselves and their pet ideas, but God knows and has entrusted women with new life, not crusaders.
Let us be thankful for that.
Every creature in this world, every mammal, in this world is here because a mother gave it life. Women and other mammals do it without crusaders, even while they have so many enemies willing to break their lives.
We need women, we do not need crusaders. We need to pamper women not to pander to crusaders.
God is right, crusaders are pride.
Salaam
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Ban on abortion is as detrimental as allowing abortions, you funny people. You say no one can command a woman wether or not to concieve a child, but that is trivial logic given the fact that if the state legalizes abortions it nonetheless uses its power upon woman (and all others). Just because something is legally allowed does not mean that that is your right. No, it is a right legally given to you from a higher authority and can be as easily taken back. That is a tremendous difference - having a right and having a legal right given from a higher authority.
Funny people. You should think about consequences for your mind and soul and not about if the state prohibits or allows the abortions. Funny, funny people.
Qur'an is not about the state or prohibitions, all these lashes and cutting off's are misunderstood tremendously. That is why it says nothing specifically on abortions, because you cannot impose a rule on someone, and you can't "allow" someone to do what he/she can do. It is up to a person to be either a murderous lustful animal or a muslim.
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Without emotions involved, an abortion or even killing a born baby does not matter much or even killing one of ourselves. Despite if you kill a baby while it is in the uterus, there will be plenty of other offspring to safeguard the stream of potential hosts for our souls. From that point of view it is irrelevant, if you kill a baby, the same soul which was going to be or was inserted into that very body you killed is going to be inserted into another and so problem solved, you have not ruined a potential life, but you are disrupting it through your vanity, for abortion is a consequence of vanity, because you wanted to feel pleasure without the worries of a baby, but fate caught you and you were with baby.
Exactly. Tip of the hat to MoF.
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You know Noon, I appreciate you as a poster generally but in this matter you are showing the bad faith and dirty tricks which are usual with the "antiabortionists crusaders". To be on top is the overriding question and putting women into their place the aim of the whole exercise.
You lie, I never said that. I said other things. Because you trick you call a fetus a child and from there on you put anything into the mouth of anybody.
Why don't you go guard at the doors of brothels and prevent abortions instead of paradin g selfrighteous nonsense? Do you think men visit brothels in order to procreate?
HYPOCRITICAL yes, completely HYPOCRITICAL. FILTHY HYPOCRISY.
Salaam huruf, really don't care who appreciates my posts and not sure why you keep diverting from the topic and going into antiabortionists rants and labeling people whom you know nothing about and I lie about what exactly?
The issue is your understanding of walad and include only "born" children thus giving license to kill/abort the child at any time before birth same as the writers of "The Message" Edip Y?ksel et al clueless on basic math solving simple inequality and due to their erroneous misreading of 3114 and 4615 as stated before who advocate killing any unborn at less than 6 months is OK which the chance of survival 24 weeks/6 months pregnancy ~55% and 25 weeks ~80%.
Let?s stay on topic in context; who does "him" referring to and was "he" born yet?
1922 so carry she him so withdrew she with him place of remote of 1923 so approaches her the pains of childbirth to trunk the date palm said (f) O wish I dead before this and be I ignored forgotten of
Likewise in context whom does walad/child refer to and was he born yet?
347 said (f) lord whence being to me walad/child and not touched me human said like such the god created what willed when decree directive of so merely speaketh to it be so being
Likewise in Arabic what phrases means to get a woman pregnant according to Lane?
He made her to be the mother of children.
He made the girl to be the mother of a child.
He rendered her pregnant; got her with child.A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one; and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings; of any kind
Likewise do unborn inherit e.g. man leaves pregnant wife gender unknown until birth?
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when reach they of the marriage so if perceive you among them rational of so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs
410 indeed the ones eating wealth the bereaved injustice of merely eating in interior body theirs fire of
411 instructed you the god in awldikum/children yours
412 so if be for you walad/child so to them the eight -
Can I remind the brothers and sisters that the question was
Where does Qoran stand on abortion?
So let us see verses on sanctions of abortion/miscarriages?
Or are you saying that a miscarriage is murder?Do you think GOD does not know what each mothers carries or that some will not make it through before they are born?
What has GOD asked "men"(or others that want to police mothers) to do about abortion/miscarriage?The topic here is not about who aborts a child , how ,when and why. It is what does Qoran say about abortion?
GOD bless.
Peace. -
^^^ above is ridiculous why not open a new thread on miscarriage or people getting hit by lightning vs intensionally run over by a car or bashing their head with large rock! This is abosolituly about abortion i.e. Intentionally murdering of the unborn and why not answer any questions posted earlier?
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Peace,
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, of course. But aborting in late pregnancy is virtually the same as if the newborn baby was killed, that is only logically consistent and the baby was only being finalized in the final steps of development, and it can survive even if taken out prematurely, reaching the missing development in the outside environment.
How is this relevant? Can you support this using The Reading?
The matter of abortion is a moral question and not a religious one and I do not care about what Quran allegedly says about it. We are equipped with a mind in order to take advantage of it and it can grow wise/witted through logic.
So you are taking your ego/yourself (your nafs - very ironic considering the nature of this topic) as a source of law instead of God? Thats shirk. And very arrogant. One could even go as far as saying youre a denier. Also, you need to get out of the religion vs science paradigm. The Reading does not prescribe a sect/religion in the traditional sense. Also it is very ironic that you are advocating logic.
Without emotions involved, an abortion or even killing a born baby does not matter much or even killing one of ourselves. Despite if you kill a baby while it is in the uterus, there will be plenty of other offspring to safeguard the stream of potential hosts for our souls. From that point of view it is irrelevant, if you kill a baby, the same soul which was going to be or was inserted into that very body you killed is going to be inserted into another and so problem solved, you have not ruined a potential life, but you are disrupting it through your vanity, for abortion is a consequence of vanity, because you wanted to feel pleasure without the worries of a baby, but fate caught you and you were with baby.
More conjecture on your part. Support this using The Reading.
Mating is meant to procreate and nothing else. The other part is something you have invented with your mind. You have sex because you are driven strongly towards mating through the instinct, that is a drive hard to resist and you wish to do it. Its natural reason is for you to bring new life and this is why you have the drive as an animal and because you have a mind the drive is also pleasing to it. It does not make it a reason to use it for vain purposes.
Proof using The Reading or is this your personal conjecture?
Condoms, p-pills and other preventions are human inventions and you cannot associate God with it. God did not create you to add a shield of plastic to your stick when you insert it into the hole. Your sex drive was made so that you feel compelled to procreate and since you have a mind you can control where and when you do so.
Ok so modern soldiers defending themselves against oppression shouldnt wear bullet proof vests and use guns - they should use swords. Got it! Alas, this is more conjecture on your part. Proof from The Reading that sex isnt allowed except for procreation?
But God has not sponsored you to invent things like the condom. Do not associate that with God.
Are you attritbuting your lies to God saying that condoms are forbidden when such a prohibition is nowhere to be found in The Reading?
Come back when you have evidence and use logic. Besides that, you do not understand the nature of "nafs," which is crucial in understanding this topic.
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Ok so modern soldiers defending themselves against oppression shouldnt wear bullet proof vests and use guns - they should use swords. Got it! Alas, this is more conjecture on your part. Proof from
There should be no soldiers or wars even in self defense. Soldiers = hail / meshulam/muslim = sun
There is nothing to defend because, as the Qur'an states, you own nothing of what you believe your own, not your homeland, not your country, nothing. There is nothing to protect and the oppression is always temporary until another less-oppressive regime takes place.
All the violent verses in the Qur'an are a part of the test, there is usually a part where it says "but if you forgive in charity (zakat)". If it would encourage people to fight anybody even in self defense it would include clear state organization, including the constitution and different types of state acts, which it does not, you need side-literature to raise a "caliphate", but since you reject the caliphate and the sunna, then, if you still disagree with me, please answer the follwing
In case you believe the Qur'an allows wars in self-defense, how a community of a believers, which has no state, no army, no weaponry, nothing, can protect itself, according to the Qur'an alone, from the attacks of armed men hailing of any state or religion, who have had specialized in armed training? Say you have established a small hippy-like community and the armed police forces come attacking you or the ISIS soldiers come near to kill you as infidels? What will you do? You might kill a few of them but the Qur'an alone will never prepare such a force to withstand a massive attack, unless you are a part of a bigger organization, such as the state. In this case, however, you are not a part of the Qur'anic matrix anymore, but simply another state slave who likes to read the Qur'an, that is not a part of what Qur'an teaches.
Qur'an does not say explicitly anything for or against abortions hence why these questions arise. If it said something crystal clear it would be there, it does not. But it gives you quite a bit of food for thought and encourages you to use your mind. Without mind you are following mullahs and the caliphs. That is why your only choice is to either accept muhhamedianism/sunnism and do as the tafsir tells you in regards to your everyday life or use your mind and apply the wisdom of the Qur'an to what you do.
There is no mentioned of Onan in the Qur'an, but in the Bible coitus interruptus and having sex outside of marriage is clearly not a good thing and that is a "natural" method of contraception.
Abortion is a part of irresponsible sexual act or a rape. In both cases it is either lust, which should be avoided, or the situation where man's lustful desires take over his ability to control himself, while a woman is risking by staying alone at places where she can be violated. In neither cases I support an introduction of any limitation of what a woman wears or where she can walk, I am just saying a person taking wisdom from the Qur'an should reject any form of possible cultural or governmental influence just like he/she would reject the sunna and hadith while rading Qur'an alone. That means using your own mind and consciousness, and analyze/weigh your decisions. Both are involved in a rape, a man and a woman and only in a very few cases a woman is purely a victim of an accident, in most cases she takes her own risk while being in a drunk company or walking alone at night, for instance.
In some cases after first abortion a woman may experience difficulties becoming an actual mum later on, and many actually fall in depression because of that, which is another point why abotions have nothing to do with righteousness and can be overall unhealthy.
Motivation of having a wife without being ready to conceive and raise children is lust, nothing more. A man or a woman who are not ready for children are seeking sex only, otherwise there is no point in marriage whatsoever, unless you want to marry an orphan girl/woman in order to help her through life, but even then a man should establish clear motivation to start a family with her. And sex makes belly round, you know, while the contraception is not natural, except for coitus interruptus, which itself is just a technique, not very reliable as a method of contraception. I would also say coitus interruptus is quite a dirty trick as a woman is often encouraged to drink the semen after the act, which itself is very gross. And I am not saying we need to apply sunna and see how we should act during the intercourse, the Qur'an also does not explain the behavior on how to do it the "humble" way, but I can't image a righteous muslim guy, who helps the homeless, prays, and tries to stay away from what he considers evil and frequently makes his wife drink the semen lol.
What I am trying to say is that some Quranist become as secterians, they want a word by word instruction on how to do that and how to do this. Thing is, you won't find it in most cases, you need to think while the Book gives you an overal perception of the world and what is it to be a Muslim. The rest is cultural.
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How is this relevant? Can you support this using The Reading?
It is a logical answer.
So you are taking your ego/yourself (your nafs - very ironic considering the nature of this topic) as a source of law instead of God? Thats shirk. And very arrogant. One could even go as far as saying youre a denier. Also, you need to get out of the religion vs science paradigm. The Reading does not prescribe a sect/religion in the traditional sense. Also it is very ironic that you are advocating logic.
No, it is not ironic. And my "ego" (person) is capable of laying forth logically consistent sayings and I am authoritative enough to tell whatever I like, even if people do not follow it and what I am saying is sanctioned by what you call God. You say I am arrogant and well it could very well be that you perceive me as such, it is easy to call a confident person that.
Quran, the interpretation you advocate, does "prescribe a sect/religion in the traditional sense". It has no credibility whatsoever.
More conjecture on your part. Support this using The Reading.
It is not conjecture if it is how it would happen. Your interpretation of Quran does not say it, but that I do not care about, it has no credibility.
Proof using The Reading or is this your personal conjecture?
Your interpretation has no proof against it either. Sexual intercourse is intended to procreate as a result, the drive is to make individuals want to do the activity. That is logic.
Ok so modern soldiers defending themselves against oppression shouldnt wear bullet proof vests and use guns - they should use swords. Got it! Alas, this is more conjecture on your part. Proof from The Reading that sex isnt allowed except for procreation?
Man was not designed to fight wars either nor use swords.
I did not say sex is not allowed, I said it is driven by the instinct for procreation.
Are you attritbuting your lies to God saying that condoms are forbidden when such a prohibition is nowhere to be found in The Reading?
I did not say condoms are forbidden, I said they are a human invention and not something which "God" stands for and mating is performed for procreation by a perspective of nature. That you use something like condoms is because you dodge the natural going of things and thus only chase pleasure and that is just vanity of you and to please your own instinct. That is also what I said. I did not say anything about prohibitions, prohibitions are a typical Pagan religion idea, e.g. Islam.
Come back when you have evidence and use logic. Besides that, you do not understand the nature of "nafs," which is crucial in understanding this topic.
I am using more logic than you are, you are not even interpreting my writings correctly, so how can you come here and talk about logic and I clearly see that you are expressing yourself with a dose of emotions and that suppresses the ability of logic.
I do understand "Nafs" perfectly well, more than you understand it with your pathetic little medieval interpretation of a book which holds so much more intelligent information.
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One could even go as far as saying youre a denier.
Yes, I am a denier of your cult.
And in my perspective of things the Nafs is allowed to grow for as much as it can, that is plainly speaking enabling the mind to grow as a result. To be indulged in activities you defend here in vain means that you "supercharge" the body's instinct and it prevents mental growth. Of course the instinct is so much more than just the sex drive.
- Hierarchy
- Possession
- Vanity
- Obsession
- Preservation (of self)
- Domination
- Lust (sex drive)
- Greed
- Falsehood
- Jealousy
Everything which counteracts the above will make a Nafs grow including chasing after mating for pleasure.
Nothing is prohibited, but there is approved/goodly behavior prescribed and one should not only do the least to uphold approved behavior but go to the bottom of what is required.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace Noon.
This is your understanding of abortion?
This is abosolituly about abortion i.e. Intentionally murdering of the unborn and why not answer any questions posted earlier?Does abortion not also mean getting rid of a "dead foetus" inside the womb?Why not? What is the difference between miscarriage and abortion?
I understand that there are many "abortions" i.e reasons for mums who abort an unborn child.
Here, you need to give verses specifically dealing with abortion and the consequences from Qoran,and to my knowledge of what you posted ,you were putting your own context and coming up with/implying-according to my understanding of them verses- that"abortion( whatever the reason!!!) is murder?
I disagree with you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.. -
The whole exercise of "antiabortionnists" (as if there were anybody who liked abortion) is precisely that brand somebody as murderer. Is is not to save zygotes, embryos or fetuses. Not at all. They do not give a damns about that as I have pointed out several times, because to fight that fight there are many other means far morw useful than brnading anybody "murderer".
It is another contorted and twisted way to get back at women as such women, because the rancour they feel for the ability and trust from God to give life. They are conscious of it or not, but they sidestep any objection you put at to them and go ALWAYS back to the murder fetiche. They do nothing to save anybody, they are peddling a commodity which is an outright attack on women.
They reflect the Iblees nature of humans who, like Iblees, want somebody to postrate to them, in real court or in an imaginary court where those they want to submit to their Iblees nature appear for murder.
They won't settle for less.
Nobody is trying to find out what could be done to avoid abortion, but to have somebody appear for it and be branded murderer for it. Which can only, or at least always be women.
They disguise it, but that is the point of the whole exercise. I have never seen any "antiabortioninst" mourning for a zygote, for an embryo or for a fetus, be it that it was a miscarriege or a sought for abortion.
Again, iblees and hypocrisy at its best.
And may I remind that here Man of Faith celebrated his mother not having aborted of him. I joined him and celebrated that we all are here because millions upon millions of mothers brourght us to this world, some of those mothers may have even have aborted of other conceptions, but the important thing is not all the mothers have done for us to be here, it is that if they dare not bring into de world another creature which the "antiabortionnists" anyway are not going to bear nor deliver nor care for nor bring it up nor do anything else for it, can brand those mothers murderers.
That is the Iblees quality and the meanness of the whole "antiabortionnist" cabal. ?How dare those clay creatures women use their powers as they see fit and not submit to them, be it in brothels be it to bring into the world what they are ordered to? They are not theirs (of the women) nor of God, they are theirs (the Iblees men's)
That is the whole question, not any tender feelings for zygotes, which they also call children.
Salaam
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I am not a supporter of either side. Just as you decide to eat meat or not, and thus support butchering an animal, the abortion of a baby is similar since the consciousness of a baby has not reached a level where there is much difference between the slaughtered animal and the baby. Many of you ought to quit eating your meat then.
Yet I find it irresponsible to end up where you have to abort a pregnancy and you have not been sound. To choose to abort then is your comfort, but you may be in a situation where a delivered baby may cause private problems and then abortion is a better option than letting the baby grow up in an insecure environment where it has to suffer because your life is in turmoil. Then the more logical option is to abort, and the to be upcoming soul of the baby is just reset into another body.
Everything is about what is the most logical thing to do and not what is perceived right or wrong by people including their perception of what their God wants. God has no emotion or needs so it does not matter anyway, and you did not destroy a life depriving them of an opportunity for redemption, for so fragile, unplanned and unfair the world is not.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
but you may be in a situation where a delivered baby may cause private problems and then abortion is a better option than letting the baby grow up in an insecure environment where it has to suffer because your life is in turmoil. Then the more logical option is to abort, and the to be upcoming soul of the baby is just reset into another body.
Way to trivialize ending a life...."the soul is just gonna be reset somewhere else" lol
Do you think a woman being pregnant has the right to question whether or not she should deliver a baby considering outside factors like maybe an economical crisis, a war, hunger ?
As far as I'm concerned, these questions need to be asked before getting pregnant. and how many kids were born in war and other terrible consequences ? Were they better off to not live at all ?If there is a sparkle of life right where it should be (in a womb), it should be delivered because that is what it means, generally. When a woman is pregnant we think of a new life, we do not think of a new death, and we do not think of how bad life can turn out for that child (and we do not really think of a miscarriage or some other accidents). We do not think if the child will be a good child with a good life. Life just happens. Someone else kept saying here that "an unborn child is better than a child in an orphanage" and that is completely not right to say.
We do not have the right to fast-forward into the child's life. We cannot question whether the child should be given the right to live or not, specially if all the signs are there for a new life, and that is (generally) what a pregnant woman means.
If there is some "abort mission" button somewhere that I'm not aware of, I don't know, but generally for me all I can see is if there is a pregnant woman there is a new life. That's a reason enough to let it be delivered. Inspite of the unfavorable outside factors or the woman completely changing her mind. Therefore marriage is a sacred bond, and religions were restricting men/women interactions, perhaps in order not to fall into this shit storm of "I got pregnant but I don't want it".