Virgin birth? Analysis of 19:17-37
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Ahsanat farjaha is not about chastity but about empowerment. Chastity is indicated by HafaDHa farj (+possessive pronoun). Chastity of course is supposed to her because she was chosen and purifed by God for her mission, but it is not made any deal out of it. Some words of the root H-S-n in the Qur'an are of those that have been turned into something else through interpretation, and by doing so turning many passages into problems where they should nto be.
Nowhere in the Qur'an is 3isa called son of God by God or his prophets, and 3isa himself denies it and says that he is just a man. He is not the Jesus of the gospels, but as the Qur'an also explains to us, that is a confusion, it has been made to appear so, but they go by nothing but conjecture, they do not know.
It is funny how so many quranists reject hadith but aaaaaaaat the same time incorporate all the books of the Bible into the Qur'an not by doing so deliberately but by just taking hem from granted without going into any analisys or real careful study. That is we close the windows to the thief, but then we open to him wide the front door.
Look carefully at the life of 3isa and his mother in the Qur'an an int he gospels, nothing in common.
Salaam
Yeah but it seems like the whole point of this birth and all was for it to be a sign I guess, like something special, unheard of. I said they started to call him son of god, they as in the ''Christians'', not god obviously rotfl Would people just say such utter nonsense out of the blue?... It just so happens that we find not in the quran any mention of his father, or her marraige, all this looks like extrapolation to me, and I looked carefully for the life of isa and his mother from a quranic perspective, trust me on that one .
And notice how in my message I appear to not be sure, that's because I was never able to be certain on this issue of a virgin birth.
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Virginity does no appear int he Qur'an but it does appear in some of the most porpular ancient religions. A virgin birth was one of the tenets of such rligions, mitraism which was very, very popular at the times of the romans, was one of them, it seems. So it is one of the popular misteries in religion. But in the Qur'an it means absolutely nothing.
As to the aya, many are saying it here, 3isa "did not have a father" and many, millions today, "do not have a father". In a way you can say, those children without a known father, they have God as a father because God always takes care of all his creatures and of the single mothers.
We do not need to know whether Maryam was a virgin, was secretely married under strange circumstances which prevented her from making it public... we do not know zilch, nothing at all, and God has kept that for Him. He empowered Maryam and she carried out her mission as the mother of a fatherless child. It does not matter whether she was virgin, married or whatever the important fact is that for society, for all the world she was a single mother.
The aya? Have a try? A virgin would be an aya of what? That God is allpowerful? Old news. And besides that was important for anybody? How? Neither Maryam nor anybody in her place said this is a sign for you that I am a virgin and I have given birth? I guess you can hear the laughs from where we are that she or anybbody else who said that may have got. I means for the people then and there the only sign they could get ws that she was a women of loose morals, at leas of ONE loose moral which resulted in her getting pregnant.
A sign for later people when the Qur'an would be revealed? Again, a sign of what? That God can do whatever He wants and keep it secret or shrouded in mistery forever? Who doubts or has doubted that?
Salaam
Salaam
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The question here is not whether or not we care about Maryam's virginity. The issue is that god says in the quran that isa is (of course) not his son and at the same time doesn not talk about isa's father. Plus the fact that maryam questionned about how she's going to have a child without being touched by any man, and so on...
We are then left with sooo many ambiguities with each one of them seemingly poiting to a virgin birth. Would god want to mislead us into thinking about a virgin birth ???
If you put all these together, it becomes kinda difficult to understand something other than that, I'm not at all saying that I care or not about the issue, I'm just presenting the clues that's it. -
I do not see how anything points at all to a virgin birth. I just do not see it. But I see that we have all been indoctrinated into thinking it a virgin virth and therefore we tend to insert everything we read into that set up. We are nto unconditioned. If we get rid of tha preconception I honestly cannot see that anything points more to a virgin than to any other possibility.
But like what you yourself admit, we are left in darkness about how the conception came to happen, which corroborates the fact that that is of no importance whatsoever nor serve us for any purposed. Therefore it is of no consequence and a waste for us, because the lesson is not there.
Salaam
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It's true that god didn't clearly tell us about whether or not a father is at play in this conception or not but I wonder what are the implications of this silence, maybe we are required to further investigate the issue of the origins of mankind, life and creation as a whole as we are encouraged to do per 2940 ''Travel through the land and observe how He began creation'', hence the similarity between Adam and Isa in 359...
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I do not see how anything points at all to a virgin birth. I just do not see it. But I see that we have all been indoctrinated into thinking it a virgin virth and therefore we tend to insert everything we read into that set up. We are nto unconditioned. If we get rid of tha preconception I honestly cannot see that anything points more to a virgin than to any other possibility.
But like what you yourself admit, we are left in darkness about how the conception came to happen, which corroborates the fact that that is of no importance whatsoever nor serve us for any purposed. Therefore it is of no consequence and a waste for us, because the lesson is not there.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I like how your true thoughts are being brought forth. We do not need to believe what even 99.99999% of people on earth believe and even what 99.99999% of people on this forum believe. If it is true as per The Quran and God's signs in nature and elsewhere, it is to be accepted. Yet people get mad that their idol (pre-conceived idea that they group up with and got indoctrinated with) is getting shattered. Cognitive dissonance can be a sad thing.
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I do not see how anything points at all to a virgin birth. I just do not see it. But I see that we have all been indoctrinated into thinking it a virgin virth and therefore we tend to insert everything we read into that set up. We are nto unconditioned. If we get rid of tha preconception I honestly cannot see that anything points more to a virgin than to any other possibility.
But like what you yourself admit, we are left in darkness about how the conception came to happen, which corroborates the fact that that is of no importance whatsoever nor serve us for any purposed. Therefore it is of no consequence and a waste for us, because the lesson is not there.
Salaam
It ought to be a virgin birth, I am not a sexist but in Semitic tradition you do not refer to the mother when you refer to a child but the father and so if Eysua had a father it would have been Eysua ibn . Why is because basically a man and woman become as one body upon marriage and they take the same name (much like the tradition of the woman taking the man's last name). So if you refer to the wife you say wife much like Mrs in English.
It is not necessary to take the man's name though, but either they can take a completely new name together or even take the woman's name, but the point is this is because of the ancient law of "man and woman created He/She them and they shall cleave together and become as one body/flesh".
But in the case of Miryem, she is most probably the sole parent in this case being in reference alone as "ibn Miryem", unless her husband took her name as family name and it was a kind of ancient feminist gesture. The probability is unfortunately relatively low, however I like if there is focus on the women for I deem them as powerful if not more powerful than men in many cases and many men speaking of women should be ashamed of themselves and their being.
Nevertheless, to us it does matter extremely little whether Eysua was conceived supernaturally or not, that is not at all the important matter of his coming but his being as a living example of a pure person is.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
It's true that god didn't clearly tell us about whether or not a father is at play in this conception or not but I wonder what are the implications of this silence, maybe we are required to further investigate the issue of the origins of mankind, life and creation as a whole as we are encouraged to do per 2940 ''Travel through the land and observe how He began creation'', hence the similarity between Adam and Isa in 359...
The father is implied. Read and you will see.
Also, you have brought up something I was also going to bring up the similarity between Jesus and Adam. Jesus was just like Adam and that is why they are both mentioned in the Quran 25 times each.
What does Adam represent? Early mankind.
359 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he became.
Thus, Jesus is just like any other man - created by God through his design and laws of creation - like every other human is created.
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I disagree with your view progressive 1993.
Meriam was just as surprised as some are now, She said "How can that be?". Yet it happened without any bashar touching her.
She carried him and delivered him. Then her folks were as surprised as her? Where did you get this from? She said ask the baby in the crib/pram! What did the baby say? Show me or state in the history of mankind a baby that speaks in the pram?!!!!Still not surprised ,and you think the "human" did it? Well show me a case where such a human exist? I mean one where he/she just appears out of thin air? I thought humans got born as babies,grew in a family/society where they have an identity and are recognised. So who was he? your human,the one you claim is the father!!!!
We must be reading different Qoran!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Show me or state in the history of mankind a baby that speaks in the pram?!!!!
I'll show you...
The Quran's writer sourced the story from this earlier bookhttps//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Infancy_Gospel
In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God.
With the help and favour of the Most High we begin to write a book of the miracles of our Lord and Master and Saviour Jesus Christ, which is called the Gospel of the Infancy in the peace of the Lord. Amen.
We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom you have brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to you; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world.
http//gnosis.org/library/infarab.htm
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Jafar,who wrote Qoran?
Where is your evidence?
Also the evidence that the book you mentioned was written before Qoran.
Thank you.
Peace. -
I doubt that 3isa spoke inthe cradle. Maryam said what she was told to say by the voice that she had made a vow not to speak and pointed to the baby.
They baby did not speak, but the baby was the thing to understand. You do not have to question a woman why she has a baby, the baby does not need any explanation. Any baby is born because God said be and it is.
When a baby is int he world, what is there to question? The baby itself is all the answer you need. If you need more and hear that he is going to be a great man or something like that is that going to change anything at all? No God is the Ruler of the arham, of the wombs and there is no questionning why anyody was born. That is what 3isa ibnu Maryam s saying in the cradle while not needing to say a single word, that is what Maryam points at and that is what the voice to told her keep mum wants us to know.
Motherhood is beyond human protocols, beyond human conventions, it is directly tied to God, it is not subservient to any convention. Subhannallah, subhannallah, subhannallah
Salaam
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Jafar,who wrote Qoran?
My version has an imprinted description in the back saying "Printed In China"..
And who wrote your Quran?Where is your evidence?
Also the evidence that the book you mentioned was written before Qoran.I wasn't around in middle east region during 500-700 AD, are you?
But why is it important that which book was written before which?
As your question was "Show me or state in the history of mankind a baby that speaks in the pram?!!!!"There you go another material which show a baby that speaks..
Feel free to read the copy of the book yourselves and make your own judgement...
https//www.amazon.com/Apocryphal-New-Testament-Collection-Translation/dp/0198261810
And contact / discuss with the author regarding the dating of the writing...Regarding "Whether it's true or merely a 'legend'.. i don't know... and frankly I don't see it as important issue anyway...
Whether the baby speaks his name was Jesus, Isa or Yashua or Kim Jong Im.. I don't know and I don't see it as important issue too....But most probably such story has been circulating around the society from that point in time until today... just like any other legend...
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You mean like the story you claim?And you ASSUME that Qoran has copied it!!!
With no evidence ,you are in a worst position than the one you imply for me.Also ,Qoran CLAIMS its Originator/Author /Inspirer...is the Lord of the universe. If you have evidence that someone else claims this, bring forth your facts.
Like other books have claims of human authors of course.Thank you brother.
Peace. -
I doubt that 3isa spoke inthe cradle. Maryam said what she was told to say by the voice that she had made a vow not to speak and pointed to the baby.
They baby did not speak, but the baby was the thing to understand. You do not have to question a woman why she has a baby, the baby does not need any explanation. Any baby is born because God said be and it is.
When a baby is int he world, what is there to question? The baby itself is all the answer you need. If you need more and hear that he is going to be a great man or something like that is that going to change anything at all? No God is the Ruler of the arham, of the wombs and there is no questionning why anyody was born. That is what 3isa ibnu Maryam s saying in the cradle while not needing to say a single word, that is what Maryam points at and that is what the voice to told her keep mum wants us to know.
Motherhood is beyond human protocols, beyond human conventions, it is directly tied to God, it is not subservient to any convention. Subhannallah, subhannallah, subhannallah
Salaam
I doubt it too. But then I doubt most of what the traditional rendition of Quran says, it is simply not credible.
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You mean like the story you claim?And you ASSUME that Qoran has copied it!!!
With no evidence ,you are in a worst position than the one you imply for me.The options are
- the Author of the Quran has copied it from Gospel of Infancy of Jesus Christ
- the author of Gospel of Infancy of Jesus Christ has coped it from the Quran
- Both author of the books has copied it from some other books.
Also ,Qoran CLAIMS its Originator/Author /Inspirer...is the Lord of the universe. If you have evidence that someone else claims this, bring forth your facts.
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..
Here's the facts around scriptures, tablets, books claimed to be written by a God or Gods
Torah and Bible
The worshiper of the bible, the torah used to claim that each of those books were WRITTEN by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, they revised that those books were AUTHORED by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, they revised that again that those books were merely INSPIRED by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, lately they revised that again that those books were PARTLY INSPIRED by God.Sumerian Law
We also have scriptures containing law written on the stone tablet such as "Hammurabi Codex" which was believed by the citizens of Sumerians to be WRITTEN by God (Mardhuk) and handed over to their king (Hammurabi) for enforcement.
http//www.crystalinks.com/hammurabiabw2.jpg
Lord Mardhuk (right) handing over the codex to Hammurabi (left)Since Sumerian culture is no longer around today, nobody believed that those stone tablet was truly written by a deity.
Book Of The Dead
We also have scriptures containing instructions to be saved from grave torture which was MUST be believed by the citizens of Egypts to be written by God. Titled rw nw prt m hrwThe book was for sale at highly priced ($200,000 in today's dollar) but hey it's a small price to pay to have a book written by God in your personal collection right? And it's a MUST HAVE for those who really wishes salvation from eternal torture and a blissful afterlife.
http//www.britishmuseum.org/images/070610_ani.jpg
The weighting of the heart in the afterlife as found in the scroll written by God titled "rw nw prt m hrw"Since Ancient Egyptian culture is no longer around today, nobody believed that book was truly written by a deity.
Summary
Claiming that their book was written by some God is quite common in the middle eastern culture.
The motives varied but the objective is pretty much the same, to enforce people to BELIEVE in it without QUESTIONING on the truthfulness of it's content or let alone criticizing the logicality of it's content.As if it's written by God, then God will be ANGRY if you dare to question or criticize His book.
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It ought to be a virgin birth, I am not a sexist but in Semitic tradition you do not refer to the mother when you refer to a child but the father and so if Eysua had a father it would have been Eysua ibn .
You're correct, and recently they found a tomb in Jerusalem suburb of Talpiot with hebrew marking of "Ieshua Bar Yoseph" in it
The Jesus Tomb
https//youtu.be/7uuZ-C7nmj4The tomb also contains hebrew marking of "Maria", hebrew marking of "Iudah Bar Ieshua" and greek writing of "Mariamne" (oddly the later is in Greek inscription).
Nevertheless, to us it does matter extremely little whether Eysua was conceived supernaturally or not, that is not at all the important matter of his coming but his being as a living example of a pure person is.
Revelation of how this universe works has gone so far ahead today compared to 1400 years ago..
Born from a virgin is not considered as 'miracle' nowadays..
But one thing for sure... since Ieshua was a MALE, then definitely he has some genes inherited from Y chromosome... Which means he does have a human father. -
Well, if it is an egg miraculously fertilized in a woman by a supernatural manipulation of the subatomic and/or energy structure of the universe, then no other prerequisite has to be fulfilled. However, the miracle would have a difficulty working today since we have made methods of fertilizing female eggs artificially and probably no one would anyways have believed Miryem today due to that.
However, like I said, Eysua's birth is no big deal to us today and I would be more concerned about the teaching of his, of not being attracted to the worldly vanity and driven by the instinct of the body.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace jafar.
This is always going to be your excuse for not studying and checking Qoran yourself?,Quote
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..I am saying the Qoran,(read it) claims that is is the words/authorship of the Lord of the universe!!!! Common, you can read it or do you want me to state where and what it says?
You are making "hay" with humans interpretation of Qoran ,and like those before you who tried it,you are going to have to check it and analyse it properly yourself?!!!
Your argument about religions may be valid at times ,but the one about Qoran looks bare and stale. In fact it shows a lot of ignorance about the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jafar.
This is always going to be your excuse for not studying and checking Qoran yourself?,Quote
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..I am saying the Qoran,(read it) claims that is is the words/authorship of the Lord of the universe!!!! Common, you can read it or do you want me to state where and what it says?
You are making "hay" with humans interpretation of Qoran ,and like those before you who tried it,you are going to have to check it and analyse it properly yourself?!!!
Your argument about religions may be valid at times ,but the one about Qoran looks bare and stale. In fact it shows a lot of ignorance about the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I think that Jafar is entitled to his opinion and I can understand that he does not believe Quran to be supernatural in origin due to how the writing presents itself and how primitive it sounds. In that I also share his opinion and if it was not because I found that someone simply inserted their own (flimsy) interpretation which had nothing to do with what was written above the innocent text, I would also not have anything to do with Quran these days and I would probably be studying a whole great deal more on the Biblical Gospels and other texts.
However, thanks to the patience I had with Quran I know more than I would have ever done without it and I can understand the linguistic problems with the Biblical phrasings such as "son of man" and "son of god" which sound like that because they are a little poorly translated and on top of that misinterpreted. No one is the biological/bodily offspring of God, but they can shape (tune in) their mind into being alike God's and so they can be advanced beings.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel