homosexuality, the way forward?
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ahoy hoy
well this certainly cooked up debate, on the main part im glad to see the open mindedness and respectfull approach taken to the subject but i cant help but be dissapointed by the arrogance displayed by a few, homophobia is so unbelievably ridiculous, and overwhelmingly arrogant that it has no place within society.
To the criticisms made by people sujjesting i may be homosexual and to the idiot who was raising an eyebrow at me studying homosexuality, what can i say really? to all the people who do fecal studies as one of their core biology topics at university, lets all raise eyebrows at the prospect of them being lumps of feaces roaming cyberspace
on another note, just to clear up, i dont believe in quran alone and i dont follow islam in anyway, although i do beleive the quran to be a special book, i dont follow any religion, im on a personal journey to understand life through my own experiances
toodles
the kebab monster
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Peace LT,
There's no such thing as a 'homo' or 'homosexual'. It is not a noun and there are NO accepted biological markers etc. for being a 'homo'.
Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOUR; and it is wrong behaviour. If you argue otherwise then I would suggest that you MUST SUPPORT people who wish to practice consenting incest, or polygamy.
Why are western countries so opposed to polygamy for example? Why not allow a man to have 4 or 100 wives for that matter. Why are polygamous mormons in America so hotly pursued and persecuted though they do nothing wrong to society as a whole?
You must realise that human values are shaped and moulded by forces that may not be easily visible. The 'gay-rights' movement is an insidious political force with a growing voice, which is successfully converting societies into modern versions of Sodom.
The behaviour is clearly unnatural and condemned by God - but that is something that I believe God has dispensation over. The real issue is the soft-stance and acceptance of this as normal.
The position of Lot's wife. The one who lagged behind.
Regards.
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Peace All,
I am actually a bit torn on this issue. On the one hand, I can see that homosexuality certainly serves no biological purpose. It is a dead end cycle. It is also clear from the Qur'an that the only righteous sexual relationship is the one that involves a man and a woman who are married.
On the other hand, we are frequently reminded in the Qur'an to witness nature, and in nature, one can witness two males involved in sexual intercourse. Now animals do not have free will so this action must be based on instinct. It is evident that the male sex drive is certainly one of the most powerful driving forces in nature, often superceding the need for survival. So what happens to males in heat when there are no females around?
In the same regard, however, animals do many things that we, as humans, have the will to overcome, such as random murder, theft, etc. However, we humans still partake in these events. But society has set boundaries to limit the scope of these events by means of punishment and general disdain for such acts.
I feel the question must be posed, then, that what level of crime do we consider a homosexual act? It cannot be considered the same as rape, or murder, or theft, or child endangerment, since the act is consentual.
In addition, morally, it can only be considered wrong with religion as the backdrop. Two consenting homosexuals see nothing wrong with their actions. If I was to look at the bright side, I can see that since homosexual couples are often eager to adopt children, it may be better for orphans to be raised in a homosexual home than in state-sponsored centers, although I'm not so sure.
So what is the real problem?
How does homosexuality effect me negatively?In all honesty, I can offer no answer. Personally, I've always been a "to each his own" kinda guy. However, in this case, I think we need to think about the collective effect, and not the personal effect. I think the fact that society embraces and often encourages homosexuality does in fact drag down the potential of society. What I mean is that this encouragement opens the door to complacency and lack of accountability. It allows people to live with their desires as natural, essentially propelling the cycle forward, rather than looking for possible causes that create these effects, which would simmer the progress.
I view homosexuality as a disorder that may or may not be treatable. I don't think it should be encouraged, but I also don't think it should be cause for ostracism. I think it should be looked at on a case by case basis, with each individual contemplating his or her own spiritual evolution and the effects their upbringings/environments may have played in fostering these desires.
Just as anger management seeks to rectify the root of the anger, so should there exist an entity that seeks to rectify the root of homosexuality.
Just my humble two cents.
peace,
Tay -
Peace,
The causation of homosexuality is complex but it is a behaviour that is adopted and practised in adulthood. I think of it like smoking. A person who smokes can leave it at any time if they wished but they choose to continue. The majority of smokers who are asked if they would like to stop would say yes, but they don't nevertheless despite knowing the harms.
Whether a similar survey has been done on a large group of homosexuality practising people I don't know; but I have witnessed individuals who have stated that they wished they did not have the homosexual attraction. That in itself is telling.
How many people who are heterosexual in orientation do you hear lamenting the fact they are heterosexual? How many people who don't smoke do you see lamenting that fact?
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Hello Truth,
There's no such thing as a 'homo' or 'homosexual'. It is not a noun and there are NO accepted biological markers etc. for being a 'homo'.
There are enough research evidence to suggest homosexuality has a biological basis. It is true scientist have not yet identified the "gay" gene in the DNA but there is enough data to conclude that origins of homosexuality has a genetic origin. This may turn out to be incorrect but we can wait and see...
Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOUR; and it is wrong behaviour. If you argue otherwise then I would suggest that you MUST SUPPORT people who wish to practice consenting incest, or polygamy.
It is the biology of the individuals leads to that behaviour.
If you argue otherwise then I would suggest that you MUST SUPPORT people who wish to practice consenting incest, or polygamy.
This is nonsensical argument. I do not approve of Death Penalty. Does that man I support Criminality and murder?
"...MUST SUPPORT people who wish to practice consenting incest, or polygamy..."
How they related to homosexuality? Homosexuality is the struggle to come to terms to term with one's sexual orientation polygamy is not.
Why are western countries so opposed to polygamy for example? Why not allow a man to have 4 or 100 wives for that matter.
Because western societies are societies of Individuals. They champion the cause of Individuality and Individual liberty. If individuals choose to have hundred women surrounding them and the women choose it too then no one has problem with that. Do you?
Why are polygamous mormons in America so hotly pursued and persecuted though they do nothing wrong to society as a whole?
I think they are pursued has more to do with underage marriages.
You must realise that human values are shaped and moulded by forces that may not be easily visible. The 'gay-rights' movement is an insidious political force with a growing voice, which is successfully converting societies into modern versions of Sodom.
That is the fear isn't it? Thats the crux of the matter! The insiduous fear of the sodomites. We need to overcome this fear, Truth. This is our goal. I do not personally approve of things like Gay Pride or Mardi Gras, I think they reinforce our sodomite fears but I know why they happen. It is the prejuidice that creates these things. Just like racism created the Black Power movement...
The behaviour is clearly unnatural and condemned by God - but that is something that I believe God has dispensation over. The real issue is the soft-stance and acceptance of this as normal.
We all know it is "unnatural" but our aim is understand it and live with this fact and move on...no one accepting homosexuality as normal. By understanding this we overcome our phobias...
Regards,
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Salaams Lote,
We all know it is "unnatural" but our aim is understand it and live with this fact and move on...no one accepting homosexuality as normal. By understanding this we overcome our phobias...
You keep talking about phobia! What phobia? You want the normal society that reproduced you to accept such "unnatural" bahaviour? Why?
We know that Evil is here and there and everywhere, so? Do you want us to embrace Evil and welcome it in our homes and allow it to run our lives so that you be satisfied? Is that understanding to you? Homosexuality will not stop at just couples! Homosexuals are buying "adopting" children because they want to have normal families!!! -
Peace
Allow me to add. Firstly there are so many interresting subjects i cannot fathom why this get so much attention. Second, all society's that at some point accepted homosexuality as normal behaviour was destroyed, or vanished. And im not even going to give you details, look at history, pompei is a fitting example. The argument that God created HS's like they are is ridiculous, because in the same breath of air he created pedophiles, rapists, murdereres, or did all of them have a choice. And impulse on wich they could react or not. Ofcourse they have a choice, we all have. Just like i chose not to have sex untill im married. Its all choices.
Does that mean that i hate or condemn HS's? No not at all. Im not uncomfortable around them at all, i think they do something wrong but keep it to myself, no reason to make them feel miserable. Only if they want to accept "The system" i tell them, you cant. Either youre HS, or you live by the system, no both ways.
I get uncomfortable when they flash their sexuality at parades, the same way i would if heterosexuals did the same thing. Worshippping sex is an ancient thing and always lead to trouble and penis worship. and thats really bad news.Regards
Noah -
To the criticisms made by people sujjesting i may be homosexual and to the idiot who was raising an eyebrow at me studying homosexuality, what can i say really? to all the people who do fecal studies as one of their core biology topics at university, lets all raise eyebrows at the prospect of them being lumps of feaces roaming cyberspace
Peace kebab monster,
Sorry if my post offends you in any way. I didn't mean to patronize or anything. I was just curious what kind of study you are doing on homosexuals (I'm a science student so I'm curious about people doing research, so I assume you might be doing systematic research on homosexuals)--I don't mean to question your motives or cast suspicion on you.
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You keep talking about phobia! What phobia? You want the normal society that reproduced you to accept such "unnatural" bahaviour? Why?
OK. What do you want us to do about homosexuals?
Regards,
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Does that mean that i hate or condemn HS's? No not at all. Im not uncomfortable around them at all, i think they do something wrong but keep it to myself, no reason to make them feel miserable.
Thats great. That make four of us so far on this forum! -)
I get uncomfortable when they flash their sexuality at parades, the same way i would if heterosexuals did the same thing. Worshippping sex is an ancient thing and always lead to trouble and penis worship. and thats really bad news.
I do not get uncomfortable regarding Gay parades. I don't watch them, they don't interest me at all -) I think this kind of parades are counter productive. Instead of overcoming prejuidices they can reinforce them...
Regards,
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Peace All,
It seems we're all in the same boat. None of us can really identify the problem, and therefore, no solution. We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be punished nor condemned, only advised.
All I'm asking, is what do we advise . There have been comparisons to pedophilia. This is an unbalanced comparison as pedophilia is clearly a case of physical and mental dominance. Then there's the example of smoking. Sounds good, but the negative effects of smoking are clear and concise. No smoker will argue about the harm in smoking. The same cannot be said of 2 people of the same gender involved in a consentual physical and spiritual bond. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing.
So what argument can we make? What comparison exists? Everyone has gotten everything off their chests. Let's be constructive now.
I ask that you imagine yourself sitting face to face with a person who is admittedly gay and sees nothing wrong with their chosen lifestyle. What do you say to this person?
or...
What do you say to your children when they ask you about their gay teacher who is "really nice"?
I'm going to tell my kids, God willing, that gay people are as human as everyone else, that we shouldn't look down on them. I would liken their situation to one who is physically or mentally disabled in some fashion. Sometimes there are direct physical and mental correlations that can be understood as the cause of such disabilities, and sometimes there aren't.
As far as advising a gay person on a face to face basis, I would not volunteer my judgement. I leave that in God's hands. However, should they choose to seek counsel, I would certainly be willing to listen and help them find the root of the problem.
Peace,
Tay -
ahoy hoy
'None of us can really identify the problem'
Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
To claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
toodles
the kebab monster
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Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
Khi- I think on this forum u r.
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
Khi- Did i tell u abt my personal homo experience? It's coz i wanted it 2 happen although i later realized tht i cld easily control it. N the myth tht homosexuality is gentic is completely false n has been disproven
http//www.geocities.com/gngerald/Homosexuality.html
http//www.odsgc.net/~cornerst/biblestudies/ishomosexualitygenetic.htmTo claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
Khi- Wht u accept or not does not change the facts n fact is tht hs is harmful 2 society as ive mentioned in one of my previous post. GOD did not make anyone a HS. They did tht themselves just as i was abt 2 do a few yrs ago. Btw in case u r an atheist or agnostic id like 2 tell u tht even many amongst them r against such behaviour coz theyr well aware of the dangers of it 2 society. GOD Bless!
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ahoy hoy
'None of us can really identify the problem'
Am i the only person who doesnt see homosexuality as a problem? it certainly feels like it
i kno people who have been homosexual their entire lives, its not a personal preferece, its not influeneced by modern trends, they just are and always have been attracted to the same sex.
To claim that these people in some way are not as 'righteous' as heterosexuals is something i wont accept. If you believe in a god then surely it is god who has made them this way, to blame them for their sexual orientation is to blame a man for his existance
toodles
the kebab monster
Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
Noah -
Peace,
Some of the later reasoned arguments are quite good.
Perhaps one more thing from me. Homosexual groups try to join their 'brothers' and 'sisters' in organised communities of people who share only the homosexual orientation but are otherwise quite diverse.
There is a huge diversity amongst homosexual oriented people. When I say I have no problem with the people themselves, it is true; despite my abhorrence of the behaviour. However just as I may not like or get along with some heterosexual people due to personality or different social interests or socioeconomic situation etc. I cannot say I like or could get along with all homosexual people. You can't ask people to embrace what they cannot relate to. This highly visible section of the homosexual community is something I dislike.
So to say don't be homophobic is great, but the virulently gay activist type in your face ultra PC liberal homosexual is not exactly the most huggable person to me. I think we have to be sensible about it. It's inevitable that there is going to be this very visible gay promoting section.
But there is a group - perhaps even a majority who are just like the average person and wants to simply live their life with the choices they have made. I have had several acquaintances who were in the latter group and they have been wonderful colleauges etc. but that's not unexpected, because they are decent people who are like any of my heterosexual acquaintances.
Enough said from me.
Regards.
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Peace
As did he then create Killers, peadophiles, rapist, without given them a choice then. To blame those is to blame man for his existance. Look, i dont know why God is so specific in ALL the scriptures about this. In the Bible they are even supposed to stone them to death. What we can do, and rightly so, is accept peoples right to chose as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else. But what you demand, is that we accept the action itself. I cant, and i wont. God is our judge however, not us, not me, not you not anybody. God alone.
Regards
NoahKhi- Salam. We can judge in accordance with the scripture
We have sent down to you the SCRIPTURE, truthfully, in order TO JUDGE among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.
Thus we r 2 judge with the scripture. Dont we punish criminals? Similarly hs is a criminal act 2 society n must be punished. But this is not only so 4 hs but also 4 pre marital sex or sex out of wedlock or adultery. This is also a criminal act n ought 2 be punished. 2day ppl in the west dont view these 2 acts as crimnalistic anymore n thts the tragedy. The US i believe will be reinforcing these laws soon as creationists r becoming strong agaisn. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
When reading a thread currently near this one of Bahai Faith started in 2003 I noticed a weblink on one of the forum members signatures.
Surprise surprise it turns out to be a 'queer' magazine for homosexual oriented people with a muslim slant. Some of what I saw is what I find obnoxious - the rainbow flag, the use of words like 'fabulous', pink and purple designs -it can't get more cheesy and stereotyped than that. makes me cringe.
Anyhow you may examine it for yourselves
http//www.huriyahmag.com/
They have an interview with a homosexual oriented priest of some description (I don't believe or support ideas of priesthood).
http//huriyahmag.com/summer/interview.daayiee.htm
Regards.
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Peace all,
We can always count on our brother Tay to bring peace and civility to a discussion that may have taken a bad turn.
Tay Wrote,
Everyone has gotten everything off their chests. Let's be constructive now.Okay, I'll take your approach to the situation bro.
None of us can really identify the problem, and therefore, no solution.
Although I don't claim to be a Psychology Major, I believe that we can identify the problem. I personally believe that the problem is a Psychological Problem. Therefor, a Psychological Solution needs to be implemented.
We also agree that homosexuals shouldn't be punished nor condemned, only advised.
I agree that we Do Not have the right to punish them. Only GOD has that right. I Do Not condone, uphold or support Gay Bashing at all. I don't condem the person, but I'd be lying if I say that I don't condem The Behaviour. I condem it for the same reasons I condem murder, rape, theft, cheating, lying and a host of other deeds that The Quran condems. I also share Truth's sentiments about the In Your Face gay movement. The whole I am Gay, Hear Me Roar phenomenon that has been sweeping Western society as of late. I truly believe that behavior is the root cause of Gay Bashing. Gay people have existed for a very long time in our society. But gay bashing did not exist for as long. I believe that gay bashing is a reaction to the gay movement....my opinion.
All I'm asking, is what do we advise
We advise gay people that their lifestyle is one that goes against the design and intentions of GOD. We further advise that it is a psychological conditioning that they can and should seek therapy for. Just as depressed, suicidal and angry people have shrinks that they see, so can homosexuals.
There have been comparisons to pedophilia. This is an unbalanced comparison as pedophilia is clearly a case of physical and mental dominance.
I was not concentrating on the physical aspects of it, nor was I focusing on the fact that it is unconsentual abuse of children. What I was focusing on when I made this comparison is the fact that BOTH homosexuals and pedophiles have a mental depravity which causes them to think how they do and perform the acts that they do. Just as it is wrong and against God's design for grown men to have their way with children, it is just as wrong and just as against GOD's design for two people of the same sex to enjoy the sexual relationship that they have with each other. If we continue to say that these people were born that way and that they have genes that cause them to be this way, then we can accept the same argument and excuses for pedophiles and rapists. As far as the theory that there is scientific evidence to support the Born that way view, it remains only a theory. That theory has never been scientifically substantiated. Most Importantly, it has no support or basis in The Quran.
It was also said in this thread that not all homosexuals have sex and that they live together and enjoy each others company and companionship. I believe this is false otherwise why would they claim to be homosexual? Also, I can enjoy that kind of relationship with another man.....it's called best friends or roommates. I have a best friend who is male. We enjoy each others company and we do love each other. We grew up together and he is my closest friend. If I didn't have a family to support, it's quite possible that we would share the same apartment or something. That's what best friends do. So to say that not all HS have sex is an untruth. If they are not having sex, they are not HS they are merely best friends. If they are having sex, then they are HS. No one who claims to be a HS and has a partner merely has that partner as a friend w/out them also performing their acts privately. That's nonsense.
The same cannot be said of 2 people of the same gender involved in a consentual physical and spiritual bond. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing.
Yes, this is true Tay. But Christians see nothing wrong with saying that GOD has a son who died for our sins. Sunnis see nothing wrong with stoning people for adultery. Child abusers see nothing wrong with beating their kids with switches and chords. All of these people have to be made to see what is wrong their orientations and behaviour.
I ask that you imagine yourself sitting face to face with a person who is admittedly gay and sees nothing wrong with their chosen lifestyle. What do you say to this person?
The first thing that I would do is ask them if they are going to be honest with me and tell me the truth. If they agree to this, then the next thing I will ask is about their personal history. (childhood experiences, upbringing, relevent milestones, etc.) This, of course, is the territory of Therapists and Psychologists. But I do believe that this is the treatment that needs to be undertaken. For the record, quite a few years (when I was still a teenager) there was this dude who was from my neighborhood. He was never like a hardcore thug, but he wasn't what one might call limp wristed (for lack of a better term) He was always into stealing cars, selling drugs, etc. Just a real loser type cat. Anyway, he went to prison for some years (he did Federal time) and came back home gay. Some years have past when it finally came out that he had his manhood taken while he was there and he has since struggled with his identity and orientation. My uncle had similar incedents when he was in prison and instead of becoming gay, he impregnated like 4 or 5 women within the same week or two. It is said in psychology in circles that those who do this, do so to re-inforce their manhood with themselves. So it's all psychological.
What do you say to your children when they ask you about their gay teacher who is "really nice"?
That mainly depends on what age my child is when this question is asked. But for the most part, I will try to point out to him what is said in The Quran. But this will depend on him being a certain age to understand and that I have laid a good Quranic foundation in our family life. I will also try to use logic to get him to see how unnatural and against GOD's design it is. However, one thing I will not leave out is that this gay teacher has a history that contributes to his outlook on life. We all have a history and it is due to these histories that we have the views and outlooks that we do.
I would liken their situation to one who is physically or mentally disabled in some fashion.
I would personally liken it to a mental disability.
However, should they choose to seek counsel, I would certainly be willing to listen and help them find the root of the problem.
I believe that this is a very noble approach. )
Although I did kiss this thread goodbye a couple of days ago, Tays presence and attempts to establish direction and some sense of root causes and possible solutions compelled me to add my two cents.
Salaam,
Damon.