The Self-Serving Verses of the Qur'an

Timotheus

Peace truthseeker11,

Saw a post of yours on another thread and thought to reply; for the sake of sparing the other one from derailment, I decided to post my own thoughts here.

I wonder about how the marriage process took place then. Was it Two young people > Oath > Dowry > Wedding Celebration > Sex to consummate the marriage?

And yet it is definitely possible that "the one committed by oath" is something entirely different.

Specifically, the wives "to whom you have already given their dowries" (3350) were "made lawful." The inclusion of this phrase appears to imply that the prophet had wives whom he had not given them their dowries. My understanding this verse makes it clear that all the prophets' wives were entitled to some form of payment upon becoming married. If they didn't get payment, then it wasn't a lawful union (in the sight of God).

The verse only mentions the prophet and his wives so I can't comment with certainty on ordinary believing men with wives, but I would imagine the dowry is a necessity for those wives as well, unless noted otherwise.

The wives of the prophet were held to a very high standard - That automatically distinguishes them from other woman, and distinguish the prophet himself as a different man from other men. Huruf did a good job explaining this

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608444.msg386726#msg386726

Regarding the above and the verse which explains the wives are mothers to the believers (336), although the prophet is denied by God as being a father of any men (3340), I still don't understand myself why the prophet is mentioned as being "closer to the believers than themselves" in the beginning of that verse (336).

Additionally the following verses demonstrate that the prophets' wives had to hold themselves to standards that no other women did

"O prophet, say to your wives 'If you are seeking this worldly life and its vanities, then come, I will make a provision for you and release you in an amicable manner. But if you are seeking God and His messenger, and the abode of the Hereafter, then God has prepared for the righteous among you a great reward.' O women of the prophet, if any of you commits evident immorality, then her retribution will be doubled. This is easy for God to do. And any of you who is devoted to God and His messenger, and does good works, We will grant her double the recompense, and We have prepared for her a generous provision. O women of the prophet, you are not like any other women. If you are righteous, then do not speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts will move with desire; you shall speak in an honorable manner. You shall be content in your homes, and do not show off like in the old days of ignorance. You shall carry out the law-giving, and contribute towards purification, and obey God and His messenger. God wishes to remove any taint from you, O people of the shrine, and to purify you a full purification."

It was a life that the women of the prophet chose for themselves. It was a life in complete service to God. Because it was a path so difficult to follow, the prophet couldn't have married just anyone. The women had to choose it for themselves and be committed. I would imagine the women who chose this were rare indeed, if not near impossible to find. Maybe the prophet had difficulty marrying when he needed to (such as if he needed to maintain political or social peace, or needed more close companions to help him be a leader and example for the people), so when a woman came to him, it was something that shouldn't be passed over lightly.

The above understanding can still call into question why he needed multiple wives specifically, as opposed to people who were simply committed to working with him when he required assistance. Which brings me to the next point

Perhaps women sincerely gave or dedicated themselves to the prophet mainly because of the political benefits (the possibility of the prophet having political marriages was discussed earlier in this thread). A political marriage would serve as tying two peoples together and ensuring peace between them. In this understanding it would be wise for the prophet to marry the woman in question, but he - like her - has a choice and is not forced to do so.

About all the above points, though, it's worth noting I don't think we can soundly determine - without a doubt - from the Qur'an, that the prophet was a political leader or that his marriages had specific reasons behind them.

peace comrox, are you thinking 'those possessing oaths' or however it is (malakat aymanikum if i recall correctly, or thereabouts) are like ones who are 'engaged to wed'? i pondered this yesterday, what it means, and asked God for clarification, this could make sense, although i have not much studied marriage in the quran.

peace

Comrox

Peace Timotheus,

peace comrox, are you thinking 'those possessing oaths' or however it is (malakat aymanikum if i recall correctly, or thereabouts) are like ones who are 'engaged to wed'? i pondered this yesterday, what it means, and asked God for clarification, this could make sense, although i have not much studied marriage in the quran.

peace

It was just a thought. I doubt it would work in all contexts.

I explained to another person on another forum through PMs that "those committed by oath", understanding them in my argument as slaves, were treated well and nothing like the slaves in America, and also that a person couldn't be physically intimate with them until they married them... Sadly my argument is lost though; I can't find it now.

truthseeker11

Peace Comrox,

Thank you for the detailed response.

I wonder about how the marriage process took place then. Was it Two young people > Oath > Dowry > Wedding Celebration > Sex to consummate the marriage?

I think it was Oath > Wedding Ceremony > Dowry > Sex to consummate the marriage (see 2236-237).

And yet it is definitely possible that "the one committed by oath" is something entirely different.

Please see the following article about this which is the most satisfactory interpretation I have found so far

http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/quranic/malak.htm

Let me know what you think about this interpretation.

Specifically, the wives "to whom you have already given their dowries" (3350) were "made lawful." The inclusion of this phrase appears to imply that the prophet had wives whom he had not given them their dowries. My understanding this verse makes it clear that all the prophets' wives were entitled to some form of payment upon becoming married. If they didn't get payment, then it wasn't a lawful union (in the sight of God).

Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

The verse only mentions the prophet and his wives so I can't comment with certainty on ordinary believing men with wives, but I would imagine the dowry is a necessity for those wives as well, unless noted otherwise.

Yes it is necessary for every believer (424-25, 55, 6010).

I still don't understand myself why the prophet is mentioned as being "closer to the believers than themselves" in the beginning of that verse (336).

Doesn't make sense to me either. Only God has that attribute (5016)

The above understanding can still call into question why he needed multiple wives specifically, as opposed to people who were simply committed to working with him when he required assistance.

Perhaps women sincerely gave or dedicated themselves to the prophet mainly because of the political benefits (the possibility of the prophet having political marriages was discussed earlier in this thread). A political marriage would serve as tying two peoples together and ensuring peace between them. In this understanding it would be wise for the prophet to marry the woman in question, but he - like her - has a choice and is not forced to do so.

About all the above points, though, it's worth noting I don't think we can soundly determine - without a doubt - from the Qur'an, that the prophet was a political leader or that his marriages had specific reasons behind them.

The usual excuse given in traditional literature is so he could set up an example for others for marriage in different scenarios, but if so then all of his marriages should have been mentioned in the quran along with the reasons, including political reasons if any.

Peace

huruf

Every marriage has a specific reason behind it. The question is to find out the reason.

The prophet was indeed a political figure if only because ll his followers are ordered the Qur'an to follow him and because indeed finghting and collective exile happenned. Poligamy was not prohibited before Qur'an (masculine, feminine I don't know), therefore there was no reason whatsoever for him or allies or contenders to reject marriages as a political means for th good of the people or peoples.

On te other han, not long ago someone raised the quetion in this forum as to why he had children with hi first wife and then had an children at all and therefore whether the arrangement beween the Prophet and his azwaj was a real flesh marriage. I agree that the question can be legitimately raised.

It is strange that we get the singular verion of wife, like when the wife of Lut or of Nuh or of Ibrahim is mentioned as imraa'tu
and then for thhe lural we get for the prophet azwaj, mates.

Of ocurse we all come to the Qur'an with a previous baggage not only of Qura'nic lore but with other lores which we are not aware ve of having them. May be everything is plain in the Qur'an about certain matters but we are blind to them.

The political marriages though, of whatever kind and with whatever private arrangements, I do not thhink that can be legitimately discarded or put on the prophet as as something wrong. I think it is pushing personal ideas about "love" too far. At any rate such marriage swould be a burden for whoever undertake them not a pleasure thing.

Salaam

virginia

Salam!!
Why do we suppose they are options made lawful therefore women, and not "ways" to get married? I think the Qur'an might be talking about modern and older ways to get married. That is why the sense was misubderstood... It just could not be understood back then

Comrox

Peace truthseeker11,

Peace Comrox,

Thank you for the detailed response.

I think it was Oath > Wedding Ceremony > Dowry > Sex to consummate the marriage (see 2236-237).

I see. Thanks for the verse inclusion.

EDIT Wouldn't the following verse contradict the above and prove dowry may come before the wedding?

4127 "And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say 'God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Book regarding the orphans' mothers whom you wish to marry but have not given them what was decreed for them...'"

In this verse it clear that there has been no marriage ceremony yet. I am assuming that "what was decreed for them" is the dowry/payment, and from that verse it sounds like it should have been paid already. Maybe the dowry doesn't have to come strictly before or after the wedding, but whenever the husband/couple decides on?

Please see the following article about this which is the most satisfactory interpretation I have found so far

http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/quranic/malak.htm

Let me know what you think about this interpretation.

I like the interpretation and that article a lot. Thanks for sharing.

I'm not sure if I can agree with the author that 2433 is referring to parents' adopted children though. That seems a little far-fetched.

Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

You're welcome.

Yes it is necessary for every believer (424-25, 55, 6010).

Thanks for the verse references again. D Very handy!

Doesn't make sense to me either. Only God has that attribute (5016)

The only discussion on this forum I could find on the subject is here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11305.msg74033

Perhaps more insight into this verse is needed. According to PRL, the root nn f sn of anfusihim, traditionally translated as "their own selves", has many meanings

= Nun-Fa-Siin = was or became high in estimation, of high account or excellent, highly prized/precious/valuable and therefore desired with much emulation or much request, desired, it became loved or highly esteemed, console, cheer, envy.
Was or became avaricious/tenacious/niggardly of it because of its being in high estimation or excellent, little to much good.
Brought forth (e.g. gave birth to a child), menstruated, blood.
Clear away grief/anxiety/sorrow, ease/relieve, delay.
Breath, gust, drew breath, sigh, spoke long (due to regular intake of breath), become extended/long/increased, ability.
Soul/spirit, the vital principle, intellect/reason/mind, inner desire or feeling, knowledge, pride, self-magnification, a state where there is ample scope for action, 'willingly' when used as adverb, nafs - soul of discrimination (mental) and ruh - soul of breath (physical), oneself/itself, whole, essential constituent, reality, sometimes ghayb and nafs are synonymous, a person/being/individual, quantity, man, life, soul + body, life-blood, body, contention/thought/face/substance, heart, stomach, gulp, drought.
Brother or co-partner in faith/religion/relationship.
Wide space, distance, width.
Greatness, nobility, glory, scarcity, absoluteness, unseen, hidden reality which is beyond human perception, intention, requital, punishment.

The usual excuse given in traditional literature is so he could set up an example for others for marriage in different scenarios, but if so then all of his marriages should have been mentioned in the quran along with the reasons, including political reasons if any.

Peace

Yes, perhaps all of his marriages should have been listed in Qur'an with reasons, but then people would wonder why that specific information is relevant to our salvation? But then if one is wondering about that information, one would have to question why any mention of the prophet's wives had to be included in the Book at all.

Bigmo

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper

6412 And obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon Our Messenger is only clear notification.

109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Self serving? rotfl

Comrox