How did you reach the certitude about the quran?
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Yes, it helps. I found this in that thread
Tay wrote
to know "for sure" would require the criterion of 2 references the mind, and the soul.
The mind filters out the illogical from the logical, and the soul confirms whether the logical can be true, from a spiritual standpoint
.And you say
Muhammad did not reach out to the heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative trance" to meet his maker.
How are those sentences applied in the reality? How did you come to believe that Muhammad met his maker? Or, for instance, if you interpret a verse as that it says that the punishment for x action is z action, what is your decision about that?
Muhammad meeting his maker was a figure of speech. All mystics who encounter the divine speak of meeting their maker or a reality they call God. It would have been more appropriate for me to write Proophet Muhammad encountered the Divine. This divine realm is beyond language and Reason.
If you read Koranic verses on revelations and perhaps also the oral traditions that goes with it you will realise Muhammad always struggled to make sense of the images and symbols that came during his trances. God even advises Muhammad not to "rush" the meaning or significance of a particular symbol or image until the meaning itself slowly became clear in his mind. Muhammad's experience is similiar to the experiences of many seers, sages and the mystics of the bygone ages of this world. Even modern meditators speak of a level of perception that lies above the ordinary thought processes. Scripture is thus is an rational interpretation of an encounter that lies beyond Reason and Language. Only a symbolic reading of the scripture therefore can hint at the original meaning of the verses or pehaps not. But what is clear to me that Scripture is A TRUTH and is not the Absolute Truth...
Regards,
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Thanks TheNabi, Lote Tree,
Lote Tree, the reading = a truth, ok. It is easier for me then to understand your way since you look at other sources too.
TheNabi. I see you answer as coming after the acceptance. It is like including what is being defined in the definition. Keeping in mind those three verses means, I think, that you had already accepted that revelation. What convinced you before?
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peace be upon you Elena,
I feel if The God exists, The God would provide guidance. I have no problem in following my heart/soul/mind in this respect, without al quran, but my study of al quran led me to be continuously amazed by its content. Thus I find it worthy of study and I am in an on-going verification process. I would not say I have reached certitude as there are so many things I have not studied in it... yet.
Lote Tree, the reading = a truth, ok. It is easier for me then to understand your way since you look at other sources too.
I think its unfair to suggest those who study/uphold al quran do not look at other sources. We do, all the time, whether it be the bible, science, society, philosophy, life, a tree, the sky, nature etc. I know I do.
This important aspect is covered within 4153. al quran is a truth of THE truth.Wakas
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Peace,
I have certitude in the Quran being a reminder sent by the God to us as guidance. It's not blind faith, but a reasoned position gained from repeated study.
If you have any doubt then my suggestion would be to undertake what the reading actually advises... try and write something like it. Try the exercise and see how difficult it is just to come up with the concepts etc. You then realise how amazing the contents are when you come across the subtlety and power of the expression.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you,
Wakas wrote
I think its unfair to suggest those who study/uphold al quran do not look at other sources. We do, all the time, whether it be the bible, science, society, philosophy, life, a tree, the sky, nature etc.
I didn't intend to suggest that, I am sorry about that
I know it is frequently said in the forum that all revelations are to be accepted or followed, but in practice, I understand for the threads and posts that you (almost all of you) consider that the quran is in a much higuer position than the other possible sources, that are explored too but as something less important. For instance, when you (many of you) want to prove something, you quote quran verses; it seems to me that when somebody uses other sources, sh/e is frowed at, for instance Zenje frowed at Leyla when she was looking at other sources to reflect about the subject of sexuality (correct me if I am wrong, Zenje)
Quote
Leyla wroteIf this refers to homosexuality and we understand that statement literally, well, we have historical documents earlier than the times of Lut about this!
Zenje replied
Oh really?! Are we still referring to the quran?.. or.....? ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3458&start=0
the Natural Republic article of the site supports every principle with verses of the quran, The Iraq's Constitution Wars too, etc.
Because of those examples and a lot similar examples I understood that the quran is for you the real source, that what it says it is law for you and the rest of sources are taken as less important and quite probably corrupted. And for that reason I asked why have you chosen the quran. I wouldn't ask a Christian because I think they believe by faith, but you claim reasoning, proofs, verifications.truh wrote
If you have any doubt then my suggestion would be to undertake what the reading actually advises... try and write something like it.
I never understand that challenge. Trying to imitate the God? Even imitating Cervantes or Stephen Hawking or any other seems senseless to me. And who would be the judge of that try?
TheNabi wrote
I can't say that I was ever truly convinced or am now. I just know and understand some of the things the quran propounds
That makes perfect sense to me, the Wakas' first paragraph too.
Thask for te asnwers.
TheNabi, I hope I didn't look demmanding or impolite in my request to you when I talked about definitions and so.Elena
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peace
Its the only book that ever made me cry. In fact its the only inanimate object i have ever shown emotions towards, why i dont know. And then again, i DO know
Regards
Noah -
Peace Elena,
I know it is frequently said in the forum that all revelations are to be accepted or followed, but in practice, I understand for the threads and posts that you (almost all of you) consider that the quran is in a much higuer position than the other possible sources, that are explored too but as something less important. For instance, when you (many of you) want to prove something, you quote quran verses; it seems to me that when somebody uses other sources, sh/e is frowed at, for instance Zenje frowed at Leyla when she was looking at other sources to reflect about the subject of sexuality (correct me if I am wrong, Zenje)
I'm not sure if there's really anything to correct in what you said. However, I'm still not clear on your understanding. So let me share mine, in the meantime. And before I go ahead with anything, I'd like to clarify that I speak only for myself, not even two, or 'many of us'.First, let's stop and look at what this board and main website is all about. Let's take a quote from the main page -
The Book claims legitimacy for itself and within itself, allowing NO room for self-made priests, or religious leaders, who misinterpret and misquote the Book of God for personal gain...
?'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?'? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (The Message 6116)
I think it's pretty clear. Now, this doesn't mean that we discuss nothing other than quran on this board, no. However, I do take it upon myself to keep the discussion or topic with those boundaries, if the topic is about qur'an or some subject from it. Example, if someone comes and says - it's okay to kill a child according to the quran. I will try to the best of my ability to prove and debate that it's not... according to the quran. If that same person then goes on to say - yes, but in the american justice system, they have allowed it under such and such article and section of the law... then I would have to question that person's ability to keep the discussion within certain limits. I hope you see where I'm coming from. On the other hand, if there's a topic in latest news/events about Iraq, or perhaps the science section... most of the time, I wouldn't even bother quoting verses.Now, having said that, yes, I do consider quran to be a far superior book than any other book in existence. And here's where I'll probably confuse you just a little bit more... we (humans) don't have to have it to believe in GOD or to go to heaven, if you believe in that anyway.
On a personal note, I tend not to trust or delve into historical accounts/documents or even scientific ones for that matter. My experiences have shown these to be a let-down most of the time. I put my trust in the God, in most of my affairs... that is when I don't forget. oops
Moral of the story... life is fleeting, most of us forget ourselves in the daily routines and even beliefs. Think why we're here, and all the trivialities will dissappear. idea
Peace
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Hello Elena,
For instance, when you (many of you) want to prove something, you quote quran verses; it seems to me that when somebody uses other sources, sh/e is frowed at, for instance....
I get this impression too.
I think this what happens when you make something absolute truth in your life. Instead of using it as guide to understanding the divine it becomes the source of all truths for all eternity for all mankind. The real danger in this is that in the long run the source itself becomes an obstacle to intellectual and spiritual progress and also it can easily be used to reinforce our prejudices instead of transcending them with understanding.
The only thing we can rely on Elena, in my view, is our God-given Reason, Intuition and Imaginations to arrive at our own understanding of Divine and Divinity...
Regards,
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peace Elena, All,
No need to apologise sis. the forum is primarily for students of al quran, thus discussions are often (most of them?) based on it. if someone wishes to prove a point, it naturally follows that evidence based on al quran will be regarded as the stronger argument.
the Natural Republic article of the site supports every principle with verses of the quran
That is because its primarily written for Muslims. In my opinion, there is nothing unexpected about that. If one wishes to convince a Muslim, its best to refer to al quran (theoretically).
any person who studies al quran knows it advises us to look at signs/ayatin within it and outwith it. to say consideration of other information is not done is wrong. this approach is against al quran.
perhaps, a clarification is needed... in that we regard al quran as a superior source of evidence, but that does not mean we reject other sources.We will show them Our signs (ayatin) in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord/Owner is witness/testimony over all things?
ayatin is often translated as verses, but this same word is used to describe things outwith al quran. thus, directly implying al quran is full of signs/ayatin, just like the external world. i plan to study as many signs as I can.
Wakas
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Peace Elena,
I think we can reach a partial certitude with/by the knowledge and this cetitude could remain partial until our death. I also think that some human beings such the prophets reached the certitude.
Personally, I believe that the quran is a guide amongst several guides of the god because of it's content.
I believe it cannot be the word of a human being for the same reason.I am opened to all universal wisdom through or outside the devine books.
Can I ask you the same question, what do you think about the quran as a guide of law...?
Thanks in advance
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Salam sister Elena,
I believe in the Quran coz of the following reasons- The awesome mathematical miracle of the Quran based on no 19.
- The Quran is the ONLY religious book on the face of the earth which has ever been memorized in it's completely in it's original language by millions of ppl
- The poetic style n logical expressions in the Quran.
- The focus of the Quran on ONE SOURCE OF ULTIOMNATE POWER i.e. GOD n no other things besides Him
- The scientific facts mentioned in the Quran n the fact tht It contains no stament which has been proven false by modern science.
- The amazing no. of attributes it uses 2 describe GOD unlike any other religious book.
- The transitional style of the Quran where it often jumps fropm one account 2 another 2 make it very enjoyable 2 read.
The 1st thing which made me really believe tht the Quran was indeed from GOD was verse 2130 which indicates the big bang n tht every living thing is made from water. But the most important factor 4 me is the mathematical miracle of the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Marie, all,
Peace Elena,
Can I ask you the same question, what do you think about the quran as a guide of law...?I think one only source or religious sources in general shouldn't be taken as guide of law, but I find the the way proposed here by many of you very wise, studying different sources, verifying, not believing blindly anything even if it is written in this book, using our reason as Lote Tree says, , looking at the nature, science, society, philosophy, life, as Wakas says, holistic way as Idolfree says, not being 100% convinced as TheNabi says -->I find this crucial to not using the sources as obstacle to intellectual and spiritual progress as Lote Tree says, ...
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as Lote Tree says, , looking at the nature, science, society, philosophy, life, as Wakas says, holistic way as Idolfree says, not being 100% convinced as TheNabi says -->I find this crucial to not using the sources as obstacle to intellectual and spiritual progress as Lote Tree says, ...
As God says...? idea
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Peace Elena,
I think so, but I didn't read anything especifically signed by God.
Thanks for that... It's always much simpler when I know what the other person's beliefs or thought's are, so we can discuss and share more openly. I had made the same mistake with Lote Tree earlier, I apologised to him, and now I apologise to you. I should really stop assuming that people believe that quran is the word of God. oops
PS - God's signature is there for all to see wink
Here's some nice verses I'd like to share with believers and non-believers alike... Peace...
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Most Merciful,
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This is the narration of truth, there is no god but God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
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O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.
Chapter 28
47. Thus, if any disaster strikes them as a consequence of their own deeds they cannot Say ?Our Lord, if only You sent a messenger to us, so that we would follow Your revelations, and we would be of the believers.?
48. But when the truth came to them from Us, they said ?If only he was given the same that was given to Moses!? Had they not rejected what was given to Moses before? They had said ?Two magicians assisting one another.? And they said ?We reject all these things.?
49. Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?
50. But if they fail to respond to you, then know that they follow only their desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire, without guidance from God? God does not guide the wicked people.
51. And We have delivered the message, perhaps they may take heed.
52. Those whom We gave the Scripture to before this, they will believe in it.
53. And if it is recited to them, they Say ?We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had surrendered before it.? -
