Inverting gender roles in marriage?
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Peace, Comrox
Not agreeing under ANY circumstance with the idea of women being for home and kids and men for work or viceversa, I strongly believe some feminist points of views about men having all the responsabilities and women not having any is jut as unfair and inbalanced as the traditional reading of Quran.
You've meant feminists who believe in this? -\
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I have seen mentionned many times "feminists this or feminists that", never with quotations or cconcrete facts, alwys in abstract and without keeping to observabble fcts. It is like when it is said "muslims this or muslims that", anything goes.
Nowhere have I ever seen tht anybody says tht women have nor esponsibility, in fact the problem ha always been that they have too many reponsibilities and duties against to few rights.
Also it shoudl be appreciated, at leas, hopefully from Qur'n only muslims that they keep to Qur'an.
Salaam
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Also it shoudl be appreciated, at leas, hopefully from Qur'n only muslims that they keep to Qur'an.
That is the hole point, to READ Quran and not to try to find things in Quran, otherwise (at least I feel like that) it seems many are reading Quran to "excuse" traditional Islam and not with the goal to "read" Quran as it is. Many of the women muslims manifests / papers I have read (and can quote) are exactly based on that they use Quran to prove their claims (some of which I love and agree with but it still means a limited and preconceived reading of Quran which, at the end, seems to portrait a God with preference towards women!). Better read Quran and not use Quran to debunk any preconception. They say men have to take care of women, men have to support finantially women... but women? they are not expressely addressed to hold same responsabilties?
Equality means rights and thus responsabilities and liabilities.
8219 The Day when no soul possesses anything for any other soul, and the decision on that Day is to God.
That is the taste that Amina's book left on me, a partial reading of Quran. I liked it, yes, of course, but it might be my own final impression... it arose in me the idea of women being priviledged (more rights no duties) or weak (you don't give same duties to weaker creatures). In Quran (from the Lord of the worlds) we can't read any male chauvinism debunking because, simply, male chauvinism is just alien to it.
Have a great day sun
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No, I go to the even more extreme yay
handshake
oh you r such a gallant woman bravo
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434 Men are protectors and maintainers of women, by what God has gifted them over one another, and by what they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth...
Does the Reading address muminati directly other than Muhammad's wives? Does it mention female messengers or prophets? Why does it address men in regard to rulings concerning women? Why can "yatam" be understood as fatherless rather than orphan? Why are men, and not women, told to take care of the fatherless? Why are men told to take care of their spouses financially rather than the other way around? Why does God allow polygamy for men, but makes no mention of it for women? Why are one man and two women the substitute for two men as witnesses when contracting debt?
Why arent you content with the intrinsic law of God in the differences regarding the nature of men (physically stronger, less driven by emotion, not burdened by menstruation or pregnancy) and in the law within the Reading? Why are women unhappy with having the extremely important job of being a mother? Why are women delaying marriage and pregnancy until after their prime, which is in their early 20s? Why do women want to rival the responsibilities that God gave men?
Let's embrace our God-given differences and complement each other.
432 Do not envy what God has favored some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. Ask God from His favor, God is knowledgeable over all things.
336 ...And the male is not like the female...
4118-121 God has cursed him (i.e. al shaytan). He had said, "I will take from Your servants a sizeable portion." "And I will misguide them and make them desire. And I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make changes to the creation of God." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss. He promises them and makes them desire, but what the shaytan promises them is only vanity. For these, their abode shall be hell; they will find no escape from it.
Let us remember
971 The mu'minoona and the mu'minatu, they are allies to one another. They enjoin fairness and deter from evil, and they uphold the salat, and they pay/contribute the zakat, and they obey God and His messenger. God will have mercy on them; God is Noble, Wise.
972 God has promised the mu'minoona and the mu'minatu gardens with rivers flowing beneath them, in which they will abide, and pleasing homes in the everlasting gardens. The acceptance from God is the most important; such is the greatest success.
4040 Whoever commits an inequity is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - male or female - while being a mu'min, these will enter the garden wherein they receive provisions without any limits.
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That is the hole point, to READ Quran and not to try to find things in Quran, otherwise (at least I feel like that) it seems many are reading Quran to "excuse" traditional Islam and not with the goal to "read" Quran as it is. Many of the women muslims manifests / papers I have read (and can quote) are exactly based on that they use Quran to prove their claims (some of which I love and agree with but it still means a limited and preconceived reading of Quran which, at the end, seems to portrait a God with preference towards women!). Better read Quran and not use Quran to debunk any preconception. They say men have to take care of women, men have to support finantially women... but women? they are not expressely addressed to hold same responsabilties?
Equality means rights and thus responsabilities and liabilities.
8219 The Day when no soul possesses anything for any other soul, and the decision on that Day is to God.
That is the taste that Amina's book left on me, a partial reading of Quran. I liked it, yes, of course, but it might be my own final impression... it arose in me the idea of women being priviledged (more rights no duties) or weak (you don't give same duties to weaker creatures). In Quran (from the Lord of the worlds) we can't read any male chauvinism debunking because, simply, male chauvinism is just alien to it.
Have a great day sun
As soon as men can and do get pregnant and bear children and suckle them, I am all for equality if they bear as many children as women.
Till that happens the Qur'an is clear, women have rights, like any human being which are inalienable. They have complete freedom, under no circumstance any less than any man, and they have full independence, no less than any man. What they do with their life is just their prerrogative just as any other person. But htye have already in built the task of bearong children. During the patriarchal era, this mission has been turned by Iblees minded men into a condemnation and a punishment for women, isntead of giving them honour and reconnaissance and reverence such as is ordered in 4.1.
Women cannot be punished for the fact of assuring new generations for humankind. They cannot and should not carry our that burdened while being imposed upon because of it instead of being compensated for it.
One should expect from honpourable males that they would not grudge such respect for women, and in fact, in spite of the corrupt antiwomen laws that have been present for many centuries in almost al societies and still are, many men have in fact been honourable men and have upheld justice even while others took advantage of the laws that were cruel for women.
Those honourable men deserve to be recognized and we should stop paying hommage to tyrans who are not capble of seeing women as other than rebelous children or somebody to cheat and take advantage of. Women today have to work and function as full males, but they still on top of it have the bearing of children in charge. Many males think that bearing hildren should restrict women to whatever they fancy they should be restricted. NO. Women are soverign just as any other human being, they are the rules of their destiny and of how or when or if they have children and with whom. No provinding for them rules they have not asked for. The Qur'an is plain. Men are responsible of their upkeeping, not their rulers. They have duties towards women, women have duties to the offspring for coming into the world. That is the Qura'nic rules set clearly in 4.34.
Salaam
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I agree with most of what was just written, but I find some reasoning problematic. I mean, sure it is hardship to give birth to a child and very painful indeed, however a man is responsible for the offspring just as much as the woman and so why not equality?
A delivery is painful, but everyday labor and getting things around sure must carry some value in evening the share of burden?
Similarly, the woman is responsible for the man just as the man is responsible for the woman, they're as one body together. But as I read the text the feelings aren't mutual between the genders there, the man isn't worthy of any caretaking and this I find off in my opinion.
Oftentimes the men are irresponsible around the world and careless, but that doesn't make a caring man unworthy of a similar care in return, right?
/Manny
You are going all the way from white to black. It seems that you want full equality with women and that delivering a child here and there is nothing that changes much. It is great that appreciation and logical, because it being so, why should we bother that people get killed by the thousands and millions in wars and ravages, it is so costless and cheap to bring them to life.
At any rate your view does not agree with God's view. Where does the Qur'an say that women are responsible for men in the same way that it says that men owe full care to women including moneywise?
All people, male or females have the duty of helping everybody else who is in need. So should there be in the Qur'an some provision that says that males who are quite able and capable should get from women as much as they "give" to the women?
Really, really, it is such a zilch to keep a body fit for bearing children with all the little troubles it entails, not the leas tof them the possibility of being raped by shaytans... Why should women get anything for free?
Indeed it says a lot about a man his reaction to this kind of thing. Men who agree with Qur'an are honourable and honoured doing their duty. Those who do not feel that fulfilling their mission as males is something worthy and honourable would do well to get out of women all they can, at least keep very well updated their accounts to see if they get out of them at least as much as they put in because their contribution as males is so very much valuable...
I wonder why some men do not feel honoured to be given such a mission. It is a dismal sensation to see them so deflated. Not like other men who pride themselves in precisely that mission and being the greatest support for women around them. I have also noticed that this kind of men are also de happiest. On the other hand, women are indoctrinated continually how their main task is being mothers having children and being mothers and wives. Being supporters of women looks as if it horrifies those other men. How do they feel so devaluated for it?
That is where we are, some asking for "equality", some others asking that since women are mothers and wives they should not step out of that (meaning housecleaning and all that) and snatch males' privileges, so let the whole world for the males to enjoy, women do not need the whole world, just a man and his children. Finaly there are those men who accept their mission as supporters of the women and the children of society. May God bless them and increase their numbers.
Salaam
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I agree with most of what was just written, but I find some reasoning problematic. I mean, sure it is hardship to give birth to a child and very painful indeed, however a man is responsible for the offspring just as much as the woman and so why not equality?
A delivery is painful, but everyday labor and getting things around sure must carry some value in evening the share of burden?
Similarly, the woman is responsible for the man just as the man is responsible for the woman, they're as one body together. But as I read the text the feelings aren't mutual between the genders there, the man isn't worthy of any caretaking and this I find off in my opinion.
Oftentimes the men are irresponsible around the world and careless, but that doesn't make a caring man unworthy of a similar care in return, right?
/Manny
She's a desperate, vicious and pitiful man-hater. No need to reason with or understand her.
Also Men are responsible for women, not the other way around. Check my post on page 2.
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To me, this responsibility is mutual.
Because youre a pansy. No wonder you believe most of what the media and government feed you as evidenced in your cognitive dissonance regarding your dear spinning ball earth and feminism. And you disregard the word of the god as well as evidence that goes against your fragile dogmas. People like you are called "munafiq" (waverer/sell-out) in The Reading.
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I'm not a pansy, it's unwise to speak when you've insufficient data. Furthermore I'm not forming my worldview based on what anyone feeds me but it's an independent opinion based on judgement and which in return is based on logic.
Nevertheless, I believe man and woman are responsible for each other and there is no supervisor gender which has additional responsibilities and that doesn't make me a feminist but an egalitarian. I'm an egalitarian. I've never called myself a feminist and I'll never do because the term is so one-sided, and even now today you can clearly see the term is abused. Whenever a human divides itself into a group the instinct takes over and the social identity takes over and so even dividing the genders is a first mistake and that's one I won't make.
And I'd care less about some alleged word of God when it's clearly not sensible and just.
My spinning ball Earth is irrelevant, but my opinion is based on observation and consideration of logic, logic which tells me the spinning Earth is reality. Either way, it doesn't make much of a difference to me what shape it is. Could you provide me with credible evidence the Earth isn't really a spinning ball I'd obviously reconsider, but that's my reality until then, for whatever impact it has on my life to know either of them to be true, because as I said it's quite irrelevant to me or anyone else who's more concerned about important things, such as personal growth.
But such things are perhaps important to people who are concerned about worldly matters. What are you trying to prove? That mankind is a compulsive liar? You know the answer already and there's nothing worth wasting energy on in trying to prove a obvious fact. Is my perceived reality of a spinning ball going to affect your feelings towards me? Or do you dislike me because I'm a strict egalitarian? Or do you dislike me because I don't outright accept everything of information thrown at me? What makes me into a bad person?
Alright, someone once told me to ask more questions when dealing with people and I begin to see the advantage.
Being in this forum, I take it that it is not your personal views that are at stake here, but that the question is what the Qur'an says. From what you write it would seem that you want that the exchange here should revolve abour your opinions. In that case, may be you could open your own forum for that.
If it is the Qur'an you are talking about, then counter my understanding of it with proper quotes from the Qur'an. Merely complaining about how others understand the Qur'an will do nothing to address your complaints. Posters are not God that should be allpowerful to give you satisfaction.
Salaam
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To me, this responsibility is mutual.
Also, I have presented my evidence. Where is yours? Provide your evidence as per forum rules.