Kaba Corruption
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peace be upon you riz,
Shia'a comes from the word 'break' or 'split', it has nothing to do with Shiva. We should be more careful blindly accepting all this conjecture from Hindu sites.
I do agree, some of this info is rather shoddy and clearly false such as that but none the less a good amount of this information is very good and exposes the traditional "kaaba" cubed building for what it is, I do think the Shia and other traditional sects have their origin in pagan Hinduism, just don't think the term Shia comes from Shivites
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We should be more careful blindly accepting all this conjecture from Hindu sites.
Your right, I think we must stress that we should verify all information. Having said that, some things are turning out to be a bit convincingaren't they - but we must try to mke sure wedon't follow conjecture. Your right.
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From... (http//www.salagram.net/VWH-World.html) - as highlighted earlier...
...It is originated as a Vedic Shrine depicting the Vedic version of the creation with a reclining Vishnu's navel forming the centre of the cosmic theme...
http//geo.ya.com/travelimages/az-kaaba-bkstone.jpg
What do you guys think of it being shaped like a Navel rather than a female pudenda?
V interesting, no?
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Khi- Here ive 2 diagree with u. Prostrating be4 something other than GOD cannot be idol worship sicne the angels, except Ibless, prostrated be4 Adam, a human by GOD's own command. So is GOD commanding idol worship. Also Josephs family prostrated be4 him
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him. ...
So we see tht prostrating be4 someone besides GOD cannot be considered idol worship. Now as far as the Kaaba is concerned tht is considered only a focal pt of salat. Nobody icluding fanatic sunnis n shias worships the Kaaba during salat. Ofcourse kissing the black stone IN THE HOPE TO ATTAIN SALVATION i.e. the real idol worship. As a Qiblah it is only considered a disciplinary act 2 focus towards it. GOD Bless!Peace idmkhizar,
Your post strikes me as contradictory, at odds with itself, where do you draw the line between idol worship and a 'disciplinary act'? Its simple numbers. If you tell people to prostrate before something material in this world, the chances of them falling into idolatory behaviour skyrockets. Even if they dont know it; we know in various verses that many people on judgement day will claim they werent idolaters, out of ignorance.
By the way, a reminder of a dictionary definition of the word 'idol'
- An image used as an object of worship.
- A false god.
- One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
- Something visible but without substance.
The entire concept of the cube disturbs me, not parts of it, but its existence itself, promoted by muslims.
God and Islam promote abstract thoughts (the entire concept of God in the first place is extremely abstract), there are many verses which force us to think sideways and not in black and white; to use our minds. I dont believe attaching myself to something concrete in this world (symbol, building, person, etc), will get me any closer to enlightenment. By abandoning such things I believe my chances are greater, enlightenment through actions is what I'm thinking these days. God has given us many choices, a great mercy on us all; to be good to people, the land and animals, to live on the straight path. Or not. Our choice.
Interesting thread Natu, keep it up.
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Peace,
Here are few more sites elaborating on kaba
- http//www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm
- http//www.aryawat.com/kaaba.htm
- http//www.haberer-meteorite.de/english/Culture%20and%20religion.htm
- http//www.meteorite.ch/en/basics/history.htm
- http//www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html
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First you have to prove that Allah has commanded us to TURN OUR FACES IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM "WHILE PRAYING"
Khi- Salam. Ur right the phrase doesnt mention during salat but says 'turn ur faces 2wards it wherever u r'. However 'qiblah' means salat direction
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Thus masjudul haraam is the qiblah. W can see the relation of qiblah 2 salt in
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
We thus see the relation here.There was no MASJID in MECCA, let alone the MASJID AL HARAM.
Khi- U mean there was NO MASJIDUL HARAAM IN MECCA BE4 THE REV. OF THE QURAN. Plz provide proof 4 tht. This is exactly wht i want 2 know. If u can show tht then the argument is over.
According to the history of Islam, there was no MASJID around the KAABA and the area around KAABA was called MASJID AL HARAM.
Khi- Heh? There was no masjid but the area around the kaaba was yet called MASJIDul Haraam? If this is so then this still means tht both masjidul haraam n kaaba were there in Mecca. I want 2 know whether they were not there by these names be4 the birth of Muhammad.
In the absence of a structure how did the prophet turned his face in the direction of the OPEN PLACE
Khi- If the place was there he cld have turned his face in tht direction. Rem we r talking abt a direction here. No Muslim worships the building.
Since there is no word "SALAAT" in all the 8 verses, revealed in the context of the QIBLAH, your belief that it is a command to face MASJID AL HARAM while PRAYING is 100% CONJECTURE.
Khi- I showed u the relation above.
Allah never commanded the Prophet to face KAABA but MASJID AL HARAM, which was not there when this verse was revealed.
Khi- Wasnt it? Above u said tht although the building wasnt there the place was still called Madjidul Haraam so logically it was there. Also kaaba n masjidul haraam r similar according 2 this Quranic verse
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people,...Remember the MASJID AL HARAM is the TRUTH from the Lord and the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK know it.
Khi- So the true n honest ppl of the book may well know tht the kaaba was the right place. Also this end statement of the verse can have another interpretation not referring directly 2 the masjidul haraam but 2 the Scripture i.e. the Quran Itself n tht It's content is truth.
A structure built by mankind can never be the truth from Allah.
Khi- As i said there r two different interpretations of tht statement in tht verse.
WUDIcA
Placed / setWas the cubic structure set or placed or built? Without doubt mankind built it and therefore it was not Allah WHO built the House, because Allah never BUILDS anything but CREATES FROM NOTHING and PLACES.
Khi- Ofcourse mankind built n cld have done so by inspiration of GOD.
the BAYT was PLACED / SET for MANKIND and not BUILT.
The BAYT is appointed FOR MANKIND but it is GUIDANCE FOR THE AALAMEN.
Khi- Ok so the already built House which was built by Abraham n Ishmael under GOD's instruction was thereafter SET 4 mankind. Again i see no prob here.
Is there anyone in the world who has been guided by the KAABA?
Verily the first House set apart unto mankind was that at Bakka, blest, and a GUIDANCE UNTO THE WORLDS. 396
A MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION
CAN THE KAABA GUIDE EVERYONE? (AALAMEN)
Thanks.
Khi- This is a good pt. However it may be used as an allegory here tht ppl by visiting tht House n gathering 2gether 2 remeber GOD r guided as a result of the process. GOD Bless!
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Peace idmkhizar,
Your post strikes me as contradictory, at odds with itself, where do you draw the line between idol worship and a 'disciplinary act'? Its simple numbers. If you tell people to prostrate before something material in this world, the chances of them falling into idolatory behaviour skyrockets. Even if they dont know it; we know in various verses that many people on judgement day will claim they werent idolaters, out of ignorance.
By the way, a reminder of a dictionary definition of the word 'idol'
- An image used as an object of worship.
- A false god.
- One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
- Something visible but without substance.
The entire concept of the cube disturbs me, not parts of it, but its existence itself, promoted by muslims.
God and Islam promote abstract thoughts (the entire concept of God in the first place is extremely abstract), there are many verses which force us to think sideways and not in black and white; to use our minds. I dont believe attaching myself to something concrete in this world (symbol, building, person, etc), will get me any closer to enlightenment. By abandoning such things I believe my chances are greater, enlightenment through actions is what I'm thinking these days. God has given us many choices, a great mercy on us all; to be good to people, the land and animals, to live on the straight path. Or not. Our choice.
Interesting thread Natu, keep it up.
Khi- Salam beatnik. All i said is tht prostrating be4 someone cannot be considrted idol worship otherwsise wht wld u make abt 12100 in Quran where Joseph's family PROSTRATED(sajda) BE4 JOSEPH, NOT GOD? GOD Bless!
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Peace brother idmkhizar
Khi- Salam. Ur right the phrase doesnt mention during salat but says 'turn ur faces 2wards it wherever u r'. However 'qiblah' means salat direction
In which dictionary you have "QIBLAH" = SALAAT DIRECTION?
I will be obliged to you if you could name the dictionary, because I have 8 dictionaries and I don't find it.
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt FOR THE TIME BEING, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
From where you got "FOR THE TIME BEING" Are these words in the verse? There is no word QIBLAHS (plural) but QIBLAH only (singular).
Does this mean that every JEW faced his HOUSE? Where is the command to face the Houses while PRAYING? How are you so sure that the verse commands to FACE Masjid Al Haram WHILE PRAYING? Are you not FOLLOWING CONJECTURES?
TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING VERSE.
Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not FOLLOW thy Qiblah (MASJID AL HARAM); nor art thou to be a FOLLOWER of their Qiblah; nor indeed will they FOLLOW each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong. 2145
In the above verse there is NO COMMAND to FACE THE QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM
Clear instructions are from Allah to FOLLOW the QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM.
How did the prophet and his followers FOLLOWED the PRAYING DIRECTION (MASJID AL HARAM)
The prophet is warned that he should NOT be a FOLLOWER of their QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) JERUSALEM
What is the DANGER involved in FOLLOWING the JERUSALEM as a PRAYING DIRECTION?
WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD "FOLLOW" and "FOLLOWER" OF PRAYING DIRECTION?
Try to ponder on the above verse while keeping in mind the words FOLLOW and FOLLOWER.
NO one can FOLLOW praying direction and NO one can be a FOLLOWER of praying direction.
WE can be FOLLOWERS of the QURAN, PROPHET, and SCHOLARS, IMAMS etc. but WE can never be FOLLOWERS of the PRAYING DIRECTIONS.Khi- U mean there was NO MASJIDUL HARAAM IN MECCA BE4 THE REV. OF THE QURAN. Plz provide proof 4 tht. This is exactly wht i want 2 know. If u can show tht then the argument is over.
There is no need to provide any proof that there was no MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran and neither you can prove that there was any MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran
You won't find a single mosque in a country where there are no Muslims, because it is not just needed for NON MUSLIMS, then how you expect MASJID to built before prophet Muhammad in a city of 100% Kaafirs. There was not a single mosque in INDIA just 1300 years before, because there were no MUSLIMS in INDIA.
There is no MANDIR in SAUDI ARABIA, because there are no KAAFIR CITIZENS and the SAUDI authorities do not allow this. In the above context how you expect the KAAFIRS to build a MASJID, which is not of their use, and again the MASJID is for ALLAH in whom they disbelieve.
Khi- Wasnt it? Above u said tht although the building wasnt there the place was still called Madjidul Haraam so logically it was there
When I said that the area around KAABA is called the MASJID AL HARAM it does not mean that I said it or believe it. It is there in the Islamic History.
You can clearly see a small picture of a MASJID nearly 100 feet away from the KAABA (THIS PICTURE IS DISPLAYED ON THE NET AND IS HARDLY 100 YEARS OLD).
Now the verse says TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS THE MASJID AL HARAM.
But unfortunately you TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA, which is against the command of the Quran.NEVER, NEVER did Allah say that TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA.
If MASJID AL HARAM was there and the KAABA was also there before the revelation of the QURAN, then why Allah did not command to face KAABA and instead said face MASJID AL HARAM?.
Why you don't face the 100 feet away MASJID AL HARAM (as per the picture which is nearly 100 years old) instead of facing KAABA?
Did Allah command you to FACE THE KAABA?
Khi- So the true n honest ppl of the book may well know tht the kaaba was the right place.Also this end statement of the verse can have another interpretation not referring directly 2 the masjidul haraam but 2 the Scripture i.e. the Quran Itself n tht It's content is truth.
The People of the Book knew the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons.
How about THOSE people of the BOOK who never visited MECCA in their lifetime, and died outside MECCA, did they know the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons? Allah never said the people of the BOOK of MECCA but to THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN THE BOOK and in THOSE people ALSO INCLUDED who were residing in EGYPT, IRAQ, and JORDAN etc. did THOSE know the MASJID AL HARAM?
The verse does not point to the Quran but to the MASJID only. READ PROPERLY
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. And verily those who are vouchsafed the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. 2144
The SUBJECT is not Quran but the TURNING of the FACE towards the QIBLAH, MASJID AL HARAM and that is the truth.
THE CORRUPTION
And FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJTA) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. 2149So FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJ) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM; and wheresoever you (all) are turn your faces towards it lest there be no plea against you among the people except those of them that are wrong-doers; so fear them not but fear Me; and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided. 2150
There is no COMMAND to pray FACING the Masjid Al Haram
Have you ever pondered over the two separate commands?
The command to the prophet FROM WHERESOEVER you GO FORTH turn your face towards the Masjid Al Haram
The command to the believers WHERESOEVER YOU ARE, then turn your faces towards the Masjid Al Haram
SO FROM WHERESOEVER (KHARAJTA) YOU (PROPHET) go forth (into battle) / to attack / to rise / fight (against) / to rebel, to revolt (against) / exit / emerge / come out / DEPART / LEAVE / retire / exude / effuse / project / stick out / dismount / alight / disembark / get out / step out / emanate / issue / arise / originate / draw away / segregate / separate / secede / dissent / disagree / depart / expel / dislodge / evict / drive / exile THEN TURN YOUR FACE TOWARDS / IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM.
The most appropriate meaning of KHARAJ is GO FORTH (into battle) / to attack / to fight (against)
And if they had intended to (KHUROJ) GO FORTH, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind, and it was said (to them), "Sit you among those who sit (at home)." Had they (KHARAJO) GONE FORTH with you, they would have added to you nothing except disorder, and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you, and there are some among you who would have listened to them. And Allah is the All-Knower of the Zalimun 946/47
Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have (KHARAJ) COME FORTH with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. 942
How will you explain "KHARAJTA" in the above verse in the ABSENCE of the word " SALAAT"
It is high time that the MUSLIMS should start looking for EVERY word of the verse before jumping to conclusions.
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed, 111
The verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED; it means that in HIS PERFECTED VERSE there is no SALAAT, and when you add SALAAT, then it means that you are PERFECTING the VERSES OF ALLAH.
Thanks
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In which dictionary you have "QIBLAH" = SALAAT DIRECTION?
I will be obliged to you if you could name the dictionary, because I have 8 dictionaries and I don't find it.
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt FOR THE TIME BEING, turn your homes into QIBLAHS, and maintain the SALAT. Give good news to the believers."
From where you got "FOR THE TIME BEING" Are these words in the verse? There is no word QIBLAHS (plural) but QIBLAH only (singular).
Does this mean that every JEW faced his HOUSE? Where is the command to face the Houses while PRAYING? How are you so sure that the verse commands to FACE Masjid Al Haram WHILE PRAYING? Are you not FOLLOWING CONJECTURES?
Khi- From 1087 we can conclude tht Qiblah= Salat direction coz of the relation
'waj'alu bayootakum QIBLATAN WA AQEEMUSSALAH'. So there is a clear relation btw salah n qiblah. Wht else can u derive from tht verse?TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE FOLLOWING VERSE.
Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not FOLLOW thy Qiblah (MASJID AL HARAM); nor art thou to be a FOLLOWER of their Qiblah; nor indeed will they FOLLOW each other's Qiblah. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee wert to follow their (vain) desires then wert thou indeed (clearly) in the wrong. 2145
In the above verse there is NO COMMAND to FACE THE QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM
Khi- Qiblah was always unmderstood 2 be a direction 4 salah as indicated by 1087. I understood the above verse tht the kaafirs did not enjoin unity during their slah but wanted 2 be divided.
Clear instructions are from Allah to FOLLOW the QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) MASJID AL HARAM.
How did the prophet and his followers FOLLOWED the PRAYING DIRECTION (MASJID AL HARAM)
Khi- They turned 2 it during salah.
The prophet is warned that he should NOT be a FOLLOWER of their QIBLAH (PRAYING DIRECTION) JERUSALEM
Khi- How do u know their, the kaafir's, qiblah was Jerusalem n not perhaps something else like mabe their own homes?
What is the DANGER involved in FOLLOWING the JERUSALEM as a PRAYING DIRECTION?
Khi- Since theres no mention of Jerusalem anywhere this qs of urs is irrelevant.
WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD "FOLLOW" and "FOLLOWER" OF PRAYING DIRECTION?
Khi- It's all abt discipline.
Try to ponder on the above verse while keeping in mind the words FOLLOW and FOLLOWER.
NO one can FOLLOW praying direction and NO one can be a FOLLOWER of praying direction.
Khi- I can follow a praying direction by turning 2wards it during my prayer cant i?
WE can be FOLLOWERS of the QURAN, PROPHET, and SCHOLARS, IMAMS etc. but WE can never be FOLLOWERS of the PRAYING DIRECTIONS.
Khi- How come? I dont see any sense here.
There is no need to provide any proof that there was no MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran and neither you can prove that there was any MASJID in MECCA before the revelation of the Quran
Khi- I believe theres need 2 do so. Since u r against following a physical qiblah the burden of proof is on u.
You won't find a single mosque in a country where there are no Muslims, because it is not just needed for NON MUSLIMS, then how you expect MASJID to built before prophet Muhammad in a city of 100% Kaafirs. There was not a single mosque in INDIA just 1300 years before, because there were no MUSLIMS in INDIA.
Khi- Did i use the word 'mosque'. NO! I said masjid n masjid means places of prostration/submission. Thus a mandra, church, synagogue, temple all r masjids. Now it depends whether u serve GOD Alone in them or others besides Him. Thus there obviously were masjids be4 Quran. Masjid is not a proper noun or name of a place as many ppl falsely suppose.
There is no MANDIR in SAUDI ARABIA, because there are no KAAFIR CITIZENS and the SAUDI authorities do not allow this. In the above context how you expect the KAAFIRS to build a MASJID, which is not of their use, and again the MASJID is for ALLAH in whom they disbelieve.
Khi- Explained above.
When I said that the area around KAABA is called the MASJID AL HARAM it does not mean that I said it or believe it. It is there in the Islamic History.
You can clearly see a small picture of a MASJID nearly 100 feet away from the KAABA (THIS PICTURE IS DISPLAYED ON THE NET AND IS HARDLY 100 YEARS OLD).
Now the verse says TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS THE MASJID AL HARAM.
But unfortunately you TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA, which is against the command of the Quran.Khi- Masjidul HAraam= Kaaba. Plz read
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.NEVER, NEVER did Allah say that TURN YOUR FACE in the direction of the KAABA.
Khi- He doesnt need 2 coz they r one n the same thing.
If MASJID AL HARAM was there and the KAABA was also there before the revelation of the QURAN, then why Allah did not command to face KAABA and instead said face MASJID AL HARAM?.
Khi- As i said it doesnt matter since they r boith the same but i believe coz Masjidul Haraam is the whole area so tht it becomes more easy 4 ppl 2 pt in tht direction. Also Masjdul Haraam is more specific than kaaba which cld refer 2 other cubes as well so GOD hose the specific word.
Why you don't face the 100 feet away MASJID AL HARAM (as per the picture which is nearly 100 years old) instead of facing KAABA?
Khi- Masjidul Haraam includes the Kaaba.
Did Allah command you to FACE THE KAABA?
Khi- He didnt need 2 as explained above.
The People of the Book knew the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons.
Khi- U didnt get it did u. Tht phrase doesnt refer 2 masjidul haraam but 2 the Quran
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this(Quran's message) is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Those who received the scripture recognize the truth HEREIN(not any masjid but Quran), as they recognize their own children. Yet, some of them conceal the truth, knowingly.
Did u get it now?How about THOSE people of the BOOK who never visited MECCA in their lifetime, and died outside MECCA, did they know the MASJID AL HARAM more than their sons? Allah never said the people of the BOOK of MECCA but to THOSE WHO WERE GIVEN THE BOOK and in THOSE people ALSO INCLUDED who were residing in EGYPT, IRAQ, and JORDAN etc. did THOSE know the MASJID AL HARAM?
Khi- Since tht phrase doesnt talk abt masjidul haraam tall these qs r irrelevant.
The verse does not point to the Quran but to the MASJID only. READ PROPERLY
Khi- No it doesnt necessarily. There can be different interpretations as regards 2 this. U r bent on taking the one which suits ur purpose.
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. And verily those who are vouchsafed the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. 2144
The SUBJECT is not Quran but the TURNING of the FACE towards the QIBLAH, MASJID AL HARAM and that is the truth.
Khi- The main subject of the Quran is It's message being the truth. View this in relation with 2146
Those who received the SCRIPTURE recognize the TRUTH herein, as they recognize their own children. Yet, some of them conceal the truth, knowingly.
But lets take ur interpretation. Since Abraham built the Kaaba in Mecca 2gether with Ishmael the ppl of the book know it tht it's the true house of GOD but r deliberately concealing this coz most of them r racists n hate the Arabs. Therefore they abhor the possibility tht Abraham cld have gone 2 an Arab city n build the temple there.THE CORRUPTION
And FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJTA) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. 2149So FROM wheresoever you (PROPHET) GO FORTH (KHARAJ) turn thy face towards the MASJID AL HARAAM; and wheresoever you (all) are turn your faces towards it lest there be no plea against you among the people except those of them that are wrong-doers; so fear them not but fear Me; and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided. 2150
There is no COMMAND to pray FACING the Masjid Al Haram
Khi- This is a valid pt. However since we find in the Quran a mention 2 face a Qiblah also which is masjidul haraam n qiblah is related 2 salat in 1087 as well as masjid which is literally a place of submission we can thus draw a relation btw the three.
Have you ever pondered over the two separate commands?
Khi- Separate commands?
The command to the prophet FROM WHERESOEVER you GO FORTH turn your face towards the Masjid Al Haram
The command to the believers WHERESOEVER YOU ARE, then turn your faces towards the Masjid Al Haram
SO FROM WHERESOEVER (KHARAJTA) YOU (PROPHET) go forth (into battle) / to attack / to rise / fight (against) / to rebel, to revolt (against) / exit / emerge / come out / DEPART / LEAVE / retire / exude / effuse / project / stick out / dismount / alight / disembark / get out / step out / emanate / issue / arise / originate / draw away / segregate / separate / secede / dissent / disagree / depart / expel / dislodge / evict / drive / exile THEN TURN YOUR FACE TOWARDS / IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MASJID AL HARAM.
The most appropriate meaning of KHARAJ is GO FORTH (into battle) / to attack / to fight (against)
And if they had intended to (KHUROJ) GO FORTH, certainly, they would have made some preparation for it, but Allah was averse to their being sent forth, so He made them lag behind, and it was said (to them), "Sit you among those who sit (at home)." Had they (KHARAJO) GONE FORTH with you, they would have added to you nothing except disorder, and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you, and there are some among you who would have listened to them. And Allah is the All-Knower of the Zalimun 946/47
Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have (KHARAJ) COME FORTH with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. 942
How will you explain "KHARAJTA" in the above verse in the ABSENCE of the word " SALAAT"
Khi- So according 2 u wht does GOD mean when He told the Prophet 2 face Masjidul Haraam from wherever he went forth?
It is high time that the MUSLIMS should start looking for EVERY word of the verse before jumping to conclusions.
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED (It cometh ) from One Wise, Informed, 111
The verses are PERFECTED and THEN EXPOUNDED; it means that in HIS PERFECTED VERSE there is no SALAAT, and when you add SALAAT, then it means that you are PERFECTING the VERSES OF ALLAH.
Thanks
Khi- This is a valid pt which came up in my mind also but then i saw 1087 n saw a relation. Plz explain tht 4 me 1st. Wht did GOD mean by Qiblah in tht verse n in the others? GOD Bless!
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Peace.
Here comes some fresh stuff, a bit different to what weve had recently in this thread
From http//jahtruth.co.uk/koran.htm
There is no reference in the Holy Koran to the city of Mecca by name nor by implication. ALL references, in the Holy Koran, to the City of Peace refer to Jerusalem NOT to Mecca. The word Mecca does not mean the City of Peace, the word Jerusalem DOES mean City of Peace in Hebrew. . .
From http//jahtruth.co.uk/kaba.htm
THE HOUSE OF GOD - KABA in Arabic
Sura 2125 "Prostrate themselves therein" - the Temple site in Jerusalem (on Mt. Moriah - 2 Chronicles 3 v 1 - built by Solomon bin David - Sura 2716).
People can NOT prostrate themselves inside the Kaba in Mecca. It is a black rock not a Temple or House of God and a rock is solid. It is impossible to prostrate oneself inside it. So this statement can NOT possibly refer to Mecca. It refers to Mt. Moriah in Jeru-salem (the City of Peace).
Sura 2126 And remember Abraham (who was a Hebrew - NOT Jewish) said "My Lord, make this a City (Jeru) of Peace (salem) - Jeru-salem means "City of Peace".
Sura 2125 The House (of God) is the Station of Abraham where he offered Isaac in sacrifice (Mt. Moriah - Genesis 22 v 2) in the "City of Peace" - "Jerusalem".
Sura 2144 Turn then thy face in the direction of the Holy Temple wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book (Bible) know well that that is the Truth from their Lord. Of course they know to turn their faces to Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem because the Book - Bible tells them to do so - that is why all churches face Jerusalem - read Genesis 22 v 2-3, 14; 2 Chronicles 3 v 1 & 6 v 20-21; 1 Kings 6 v 1-2, 11-14 and 1 kings 8 v 29-30 and Isaiah 56 v 7.
There is no reference in the Holy Koran to the city of Mecca by name nor by implication. ALL references, in the Holy Koran, to the City of Peace refer to Jerusalem NOT to Mecca. The word Mecca does not mean the City of Peace, the word Jerusalem DOES mean City of Peace in Hebrew.
Ishmael's mother, who was called Hagar, was an Egyptian and was the hand-maiden (servant) of Sarah who was Abraham's first and legitimate wife.
The well of Beer-lahai-roi, where Hagar went whilst pregnant with Ishmael when she ran away the first time, is between Kadesh-Barnea and Bered (South of Beersheba) on the route to Egypt, her home-land.
Sarah sent Hagar away with Ishmael and she naturally went towards Egypt her home-land NOT to Mecca. They went to Beer-sheba in Paran on the edge of the Negev desert, as is stated by God in the Book of Genesis that God gave to Moses.
On both occasions when Hagar left Abraham she went towards Egypt her home-land, which is quite a natural thing to do.
Hagar found Ishmael an Egyptian wife. They did not go to or live in Mecca. Mecca is more than 1000 miles from Mt. Moriah across desert and much too far away for Ishmael to hear of Abraham's death and be able to return in time to assist Isaac with Abraham's burial (Genesis 25 v 9).
The story about Mecca was made up by the Meccans to advertise and promote Mecca (in their advertising brochure - the Hadith) and is a complete fabrication. It has NOTHING to do with the Holy Koran. The Hadith contradicts God's Koran.
If people read the Bible they would know that they have to make the Pilgrimage (Haj) to Jerusalem not to Mecca and the Meccans would lose all the money they make from the Pilgrims.
The Meccans then had to discredit the Bible, to stop people from reading it and finding out the Truth, so they (Khadijah's cousin Waraquah according to the Vatican's archives) changed the name Isaac for the name Ishmael in Sura 2125 and 2127 and claim that the king James Bible is not the True Bible and that the True Bible no longer exists, so no-one can read it. All of which is a LIE and evil Meccan propaganda. Now people read the Hadith and its version of the Koran, instead of reading the Koran itself.
The Hadith has made it impossible for Moslems to understand the Koran's true meaning and to read the Bible and fulfill God's Covenant as God commands them to do in the Koran - Suras 1691 and 58 and that is exactly what the Meccans wanted.
Mecca was an evil place when Mohammed Mustafa was born and the Meccans drove him and the TRUE KORAN out because it was about Jerusalem and would have ruined their pilgrimage-business to their black rock and idol-worship.
After Mohammed's death the Meccans changed the Koran and betrayed him and God.
Mecca has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Abraham; Ishmael; Isaac or God.
God tells people repeatedly in the Koran to read the Bible e.g. Sura 6154-157). The Meccans then claim that the Almighty God has allowed the Book, that He commands people to read, to have been lost forever. That is not logical and is an insult to God.
Of course the True Bible still exists as confirmed by God Himself in His Holy Koran (Sura 3223) and the most accurate translation of The Bible in print is still the Authorised king James Bible in the old English, as confirmed by the "Dead Sea Scroll" of the Book of Isaiah (referred to in Sura 522-3) which in no way differs from the Book of Isaiah in the king James Bible.
Therefore the moslems are calling God a liar, which is a satanic thing to do. Satan called God a liar in the Garden of Eden and God condemned Adam and Eve for believing Satan's lies. These satanic lies are now being continued by the moslems when they contradict God by saying that the True Bible no longer exists, after God has told us in His Holy Koran - Sura 3223 that-
"We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE - the readers of this Koran - moslems) and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel."
V interesting, no?
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From... http//www.drmohtashemi.com/writing/06.html
Then after about four years came the moment when Muhammad made a public announcement of his mission. Once at a gathering of his own clan of the Hashim family and once at a general meeting of Meccans on Mount Safa. Muhammad proclaimed his mission and called on the people to abandon idolatry and to worship the one true God. This public announcement aroused the fiercest opposition from the Meccan notables, for any abandonment of idol-worship threatened the position of the Kaba as the foremost center of idol-worship in Arabia which in turn meant the destruction of Mecca as a commercial center. Mohammed's followers at this stage were mostly young men of no influence in the community. Some were members of powerful clans but could exert no influence because of their youth. Others were slaves. All of the Meccan nobility combined against the new Prophet and only the protection of Abu Talib (who stood by his nephew on account of kinship and not because he was a believer) saved Muhammad from death while several of his followers endured the cruelest tortures and many faced abuse and insults.
V interesting, no?
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Natu, that paragraph you quoted is all good an all, but it claims that the Quran has been changed and Isaacs name has been replaced with Ishmael, do you seriously believe that? Thats just sounds like a typical christian argument.
It is also interesting to note that Jerusalem doesn't really have a peaceful history. That land is completly soaked in blood.
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Peace Riz,
The material I'm putting uphereisoftencontradictory, so we cant possibly believe it all. We cant be usingconjecture like this to accept or reject the kaba, its just food for thought for those that think that the kaba iswithout a doubtpart of islam. for me, the quran itself isenough to tell us that the kaba has nothing to do with islam (it only appears twice!). This is just food for thought, everyone seems tobe wanting ownership of the kaba, the hindus everyone, I think it is important that people are aware of this - so the ai of this thread is just to raiseawareness, not tomake any conclusions as such.
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from...
http//mirrorh.com/cn.htm
Ka'Ba - "Literally, cube or cube building the sacred shrine of Islam at Mecca; 'the navel of the earth;' the most sacred object of the kaba is the black stone embedded in the southeastern corner of the building."
Don't know of the relibility of this understanding, but it is a clear indication of the link with some form of navel.
from...
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva
Although he is defined as a destroyer (or rather recreator), Shiva, along with Vishnu, is considered the most benevolent God.
From this it is clear that shiva and vishnu could be worshipped in one idol, so the cube shape and the meteorite in the corner makes perfect sense.
http//blavatskyarchives.com/images/vishnu2.gif
This is Vishnu and a lotus growing from his navel... (Creating another God, Brahma).
My conclusions are now that the "kaba" of arabia is infact a shivan idol, and the black stone is meant to represent vishnu's navel from which another God was created, forming the Trimurti, (The hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva please see "http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_trinity"). Perhaps this may explain why the christians try so hard to turn God into God, and Jesus and the 'holy spirit', the latter of which is often said to be hard to explain or understand. So it appears that the God's comanded way of life was also corrupted by hindu influence at the time of the bible as well! Not just the Quran! I think I might write an article on this in the near future, watch this space people...!
I would like to hear brother Ayman's views, with respect to his article 'language barrier'.
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peace..
Youre good at this!
regards.
Noah