THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION
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Peace all,
Just glossing over the discussion here I want to point out that the way the question is framed is just as important as trying to search for the answers.
Natu has unfortunately framed the question in a loaded fashion. By calling it a 'ritual prayer' one is already condemning it as being meaningless. Rituals are patterned behaviours. Whether the behaviour is beneficial or not is debatable depending on the 'ritual'. A pilot has a ritual of going through the flight plan - a useful ritual for example.
I would say the following definition of ritual in this context of 'salat' is being used
A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed.
And there is no detailed method in the reading of a procedure to be followed - so the term "ritual" is a red herring, and loads the question unfavorably.
Even the term 'prayer' is a misnomer.
The questions are
Is there a 'salat'? - Yes.
Is there a time indicated for them? - Yes.
Salat is to me an overall commitment to be righteous. But in terms of the timed salat I am of the opinion that it is patently not a patterned procedure as it is not described; and it is not even necessarily a regular thing - as in the times are set out but you may not have a want for it at that time.
For example the cafeteria at work is open between 5-6 pm for dinner, but I may choose not to eat that day. And when I do eat I don't necessarily order the same meal. That's about the best analogy I can find for my own experience.
Regards.
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Here are some interesting views about
There is no middle prayer
From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.
WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle
RIJAAL = men, great men, important men, leading personalities, men of distinction
RUKBAAN = retinue, escort
Meanings from A DICTIONARY OF MODERN WRITTEN ARABIC by "HANS WEHR"
Retinue = group of people attending to an important person (oxford dictionary)
Guard your COMMITMENTS and the COMMITMENTS of the MEDIATORS and stand devoutly for Allah and if you FEAR (that you cannot GUARD your COMMITMENTS as a MEDIATOR) then (take the help of) leading personalities or men attending such persons, and when you are in security/sure then remember Allah in the way He hath taught you which ye ever knew not.
The SALAAT AL WUSTA is the COMMITMENTS OF THE MEDIATOR and not the middle prayer.
Nadia Malik, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=28796
Salath wasta is central commitment(2/23.In verses mentioned before 2/238 the God is giving guidance and replying some important questions related with the life of individual as well as society.Like wise,how much we have to spend for the welfare of the society,how we have to take care of poor and orphans,struggle in implementing the system,relation between wife and husband in family life,to whom a muslim man/woman should marry and process of divorce etc.These all are very important commitments to make balance personality and society.
Quranic message is for eternity,during any period these all commitments are equally important but some of them play vital role and their solution require top priority attention and if these commitments will not be given due importance basis then society will tilt towards imbalance.For example in our time illiteracy and feudalism are the two very important issues which are responsible for mental and physical slavery.These ground realities should be given prime importance otherwise society will remain imbalance.Considering all this the understanding of verse 2/238 in which salth wasta is mentioned will be
"Guards all your commitments with particular attention to central core commitment and be ready all the time to do your job in the light of God's guidance".
sohail Qureshi, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29019
While describing some important marital Laws, it is reiterated that, your Central Duty remains the guarding of the System in which individuals and families can develop their potentials to the maximum. Stay alert in the obedience to Allah.
Dr. Shabbir, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29020
Peace to all
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Peace.
It is now clear that 2238 doesnt necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.
However I still have problems with the following
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The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I cant remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
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What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse stand for the God in obedience? Does this n support physical salat?
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From the quotes kindly provided by /JM/
From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.
WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle
What conclusions do we reach on this? Because to my understanding, 228-241 isnt continuously about divorce, because verse 240 isnt anything to do with divorce. Plus, even if 2238 and 2239 are considered as part of the divorce rules, then it is a good follow on from the end of 2237 And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favour between you; GOD IS SEER OVER WHAT YOU DO Following this God tells us what to do (salat)
Aside from this, all is well and it looks like were on for a conclusion on 2238 now (in support of non-physical salat). By the way, is there any way I can get my hands on you translation Wakas, so that instead of using ASs translation we can use yours in the introductory post to each verse?
If anybody who supports physical salat wishes to make contributions then they are strongly encourage to do so. This thread is back people )
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Peace.
It is now clear that 2238 doesn?t necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.
However I still have problems with the following
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The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I can?t remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached ? also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
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What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse ?stand for the God in obedience?? ? Does this n support physical salat?
Salaam
2238 was discussed here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3206
I don't think standing supports physical salaat because oration was being listened standing, the ayats below prove this
073.02-04 STAND by night, but not all night,- Half of it,- or a little less, Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
025.064 Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate (the mind) and STANDING;
039.009 Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or STANDING (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.
But it could be done on foot or riding in case of a fear (of what I don't know).
002.239 If ye fear, (establish the oration) on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
Peace...
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peace Natu,
I'm not sure what trans. you are referring to. I dont really have one. If you mean for 2238, then here it is, from the thread born_again referenced.
Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.
The context prior to 2238 discusses formal/public orations/vows/bonds. The core meaning of these orations/vows, as implied by the root, are to go/turn towards in a close/positive manner. This view is given further weight by the use of "QaNiTeena/obedience" at the end of the ayat/sign. And the reference of "the most balanced oration/bond" (i.e. al/the quran/reading) provides a perfect link for 2239.
Wakas
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Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.
If the highlighted bit of the translation is possible, then we can safely say that this verse doesn't neccessarily support physical salat. is this agreed upon?
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Peace,
Can't this possibly mean preserve/uphold/support the meaning/laws/way of God?
The Book tells us about the things we must commit ourselves to, therefore Aididsafar.com usage of salat=commitements works better, that site would say the meaning of what was traditionally translated as 'observe contact prayers/ritual prayer/detailed method of linking and pay the zakat' is actually 'uphold the commitents and keep them pure'.
Personally imho this is the best meaning so far and it is a very important thing that must be done for Islam to prosper and for sucess and peace to come.
Natu- that verse you quoted does not support a physical prayer, if the promotores of physical salat are using that sort of 'evidence' then their argement is very weak.
Nural
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Preserve/protect/guard/maintain (hafithoo) the salawati, and (wa) the wusta salati, and stand/persist (qoomoo) devoutly to GOD.
But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure/safe (amintum), then remember/mention God as He Has taught you what you did not know.My understanding of verse as of today is the following
"Maintain the commitments (to obey the commands of God, like the ones in the preceding verses about marriage and divorce), and (especially) the central commitment (to remember God, like it is said in the following verse), and stand devoutly to God."
That is, I think aims to remind people they have to remember God to muster the motivation to comply to God's exigencies as expressed in the preceding (and following) verses about marriage and divorce.
How should we remember God ?
Imho, is detailed in , where it seems salat can be translated as prayer (commitment to pray in congregation).And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.See also this verse
Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand. Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire
(translations are from Shakir)
Peace to all
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peace All,
If the highlighted bit of the translation is possible, then we can safely say that this verse doesn't neccessarily support physical salat. is this agreed upon?
if an 'oration / learning connection / enlightening process' is taking place, it is obviously done best stationary. its no coincidence that when most people undertake important study they remain stationary, e.g. sit at a desk or whatever. especially if done in a group, thus stand could be taken literally. "persist" was included because the word 'qoomoo/stand' is often used in its non-literal meaning, just like in English, "stand for justice" etc. thus, in my opinion 'qoomoo' can also be taken in its non-literal meaning, hence its inclusion in my trans. i am not attempting to force my view on others and i know i do not know enough about al quran to choose conclusively, thus i left it open. it says what it says. one cannot choose one over the other without a strong argument. i dont see any strong argument being put forth, thus how can agreement be sought?
Aididsafar.com usage of salat=commitements works better, that site would say the meaning of what was traditionally translated as 'observe contact prayers/ritual prayer/detailed method of linking and pay the zakat' is actually 'uphold the commitents and keep them pure'.
Personally imho this is the best meaning so far and it is a very important thing that must be done for Islam to prosper and for sucess and peace to come.
The best meaning is often the most accurate, thus... if you feel that this is the best meaning, perhaps you can show us out of about 450 times usage of the word "atoo/atawoo" in al quran, how many is used as " keep / keep them"?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=840Wakas
edited numerical error
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The best meaning is often the most accurate, thus... if you feel that this is the best meaning, perhaps you can show us out of about 450 times usage of the word "atoo/atawoo" in al quran, how many is used as " keep / keep them"?
Peace Wakas,
I've been thinking, would it not be possible, that atoo.atawoo your commitments is telling us to be comittem to the commitments,whichare the beliefs we are to hold (e.g. belief in one God) - I myself used to have difficulty in staying away from traditional prayer, so could it be a commandment to maintain these beliefs?
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peace Natu,
What I was alluding to with my statement/challenge, that you referenced, was that atoo/atawoo DOES NOT and CANNOT and NEVER WILL mean "keep them". Not only is A.S's translation in this example grammatically incorrect, the word meaning is COMPLETE and UTTER distortion. Whoever undertakes such a challenge will be hard pushed to find clear examples out of about 450, or evidence via a dictionary.
What I personally find annoying about A.S's work is that often its quite brilliant, but sometimes its just completely wrong. Its no coincidence that no-one (as far as I'm aware) who knows Arabic on this forum actually thinks A.S's work is solid or consistantly accurate. Dont get me wrong, overall, I like his work, but not all of it.
the commonly occurring phrase we are referring to is similar to
aqimoo (uphold) al (the) salat wa (and) atoo/atawoo (bring/show/produce/give) al (the) zakatWakas
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Peace,
What I was alluding to with my statement/challenge, that you referenced, was that atoo/atawoo DOES NOT and CANNOT and NEVER WILL mean "keep them". Not only is A.S's translation in this example grammatically incorrect, the word meaning is COMPLETE and UTTER distortion. Whoever undertakes such a challenge will be hard pushed to find clear examples out of about 450, or evidence via a dictionary.
What I personally find annoying about A.S's work is that often its quite brilliant, but sometimes its just completely wrong. Its no coincidence that no-one (as far as I'm aware) who knows Arabic on this forum actually thinks A.S's work is solid or consistantly accurate. Dont get me wrong, overall, I like his work, but not all of it.
the commonly occurring phrase we are referring to is similar to
aqimoo (uphold) al (the) salat wa (and) atoo/atawoo (bring/show/produce/give) al (the) zakatA.S. translation is a very, very rough draft and was never meant to be taken as quotable ?gospel?. His decision to post it was based solely for the purpose of breaking specific idols and pointing out the fact the English translations, globally, are full of corruptions and wrong concepts. He is working on finding better English to convey the concepts. As you probably already know, translating is not as simple as looking up the words and transcribing them. God has used ?words? in a specific manner and after studying His use (which is how He teaches) tasreef, and pondering over these connections will we find a better English word or phrase. It is a slow process and often requires revisions. A perfect example akala is rendered as ?eat?. Perhaps when one ?eats? it is also ?akala? but akala is to ?use/consume or utilize?. The meaning does not change with context. The meaning should always be mutashabiha and a dictionary is of limited use.
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peace,
A.S. translation is a very, very rough draft and was never meant to be taken as quotable ?gospel?.
I agree "atoo/atawoo" into "keep them" is very very rough indeed.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, is it your point that you can't 'uphold' 'commitments'?
No, that is not my point at all. I dont know how you came to this deduction.
the commonly occurring phrase we are referring to is similar to
aqimoo (uphold) al (the) salat wa (and) atoo/atawoo (bring/show/produce/give) al (the) zakatThe above was my point.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum all,
IMHO Salat is both physical and non-physical and I would request everyone to view my post in the following thread for the proofs from Al-Quran for the physical part of Salat
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3183&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
I believe that brother Natu is doing a commendable job moderating the analysis of all the pertinent verses one by one but IMO we will be able to reach a better understanding if we analyse all the pertinent verses at the same time and to present all the proofs simultaneously to arrive at our understanding of the nature of Salat. Allah advises in Al-Quran
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
1699 So, when you study the Quran, you shall seek refuge with God from Satan the outcast.
16100 He has no authority over those who believe, and who put their trust in their Lord.May Allah guide us all,
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace,
It appears that whatever thread we lookat, when we don't look at each verse independantly (with thorough cross referncing), the debate loses all objectivity, and people just end up oposing eahco hters 'interpreations' of the Quran ollectively, and in some we even see people being called idol worshippers. This approach, in my opinion eradicates the problem. it may not be as 'fun' as the usual method, and it may not be as quick to reach conclusions, but it is definitely getting there. All we need really is people who strongly accept physical salat, so that we can have a more balanaced debate. Thanks for your support.
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Peace brothers Wakas, Natu, all
IMHO if we uphold a Salat with both the physical and non-physical elements in accordance with Al-Quran, only then we will be able to achieve the WASAT/balance/best or the ALSALAAT ALWUSTA. I think that will be the only way to unite all of us and prevent sects.
Brother Wakas thank you for the welcome and your excellent comments on my post in the other thread. Can you please comment on my response at that thread.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3183&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace be upon you,
Have you considered that Bacca and Baytullah is the same place as Samaritans call Beth El? Most of them lived in the valley of Shechem between Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal.
Their belief is that Abraham built in Shechem the very first altar for the one God and archeological excavations at the Mount Gerizim supports this affirmation.
I think these webpages are really interesting.
http//www.ourfatherlutheran.net/biblehomelands/palestine/nablus.htm
http//www.netours.com/2003/balata.htmHere are some pictures
http//www.ourfatherlutheran.net/biblehomelands/palestine/palestinepix/gerizimexc.gif
http//www.ourfatherlutheran.net/biblehomelands/palestine/palestinepix/geriz-ebal.jpg
http//www.netours.com/2003/shechem_files/balata.jpg
And this information about Samaritans beliefs I found it useful
http//www.the-samaritans.com/articles8.html
Take care brothers and sisters and may Allah guide us to the truth.
Ma'a salama,
nur
