contradiction in dialog with the magicians
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Peace, this dialog with magicians was difficult which at first appeared to conflict verses until reading carefully.
7113-114 and came the magicians firaun said they of inna/indeed for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you surely among the near being
2641-42 so when came the magicians said they of to firaun a-inna/is there for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you idhan/then surely among the near being
The Qur'an is a translation into Arabic of the language/s spoken at the time with "excerpts" taken from fuller dialog
said they of to firaun inna/indeed a-inna/is there for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you idhan/then surely among the near being
thumma/furthermore verified that the text is correct with older manuscripts
https//s10.postimg.org/utrwszyih/Ahlwardt_305_ch7v106-127.jpg
https//s10.postimg.org/6v9hrxx95/Ahlwardt_305_ch26v26-49.jpg
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Peace, this dialog with magicians was difficult which at first appeared to conflict verses until reading carefully.
7113-114 and came the magicians firaun said they of inna/indeed for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you surely among the near being
2641-42 so when came the magicians said they of to firaun a-inna/is there for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you idhan/then surely among the near being
The Qur'an is a translation into Arabic of the language/s spoken at the time with "excerpts" taken from fuller dialog
Bold Wait so if i got this, you are saying the Quran is a translation? Correct me if i am incorrect dear brother.
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Bold Wait so if i got this, you are saying the Quran is a translation? Correct me if i am incorrect dear brother.
yes from their language spoken at the time into Arabic e.g. 1894 said they of "translation" ...
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yes from their language spoken at the time into Arabic e.g. 1894 said they of "translation" ...
If i got this correct because i check the root word the arabic word you show us which is qaloo (ا and it does not say anything about translation
Qaf-Waw-Lam = to say/speak, to call, to be named, word/speech, utterance, a thing said, greeting, discourse, one who says/speaks. To inspire/transmit/relate/answer/think/profess, emit an opinion on, indicate a state or condition or circumstance. qa'ilun - speaker, indicator.
qala vb. (1)
perf. act. 211
impf. act. 28
impv. 258, 280, 283, 291, 293, 294, 297, 2104, 2111, 2120, 2135, 2136, 2139, 2140, 2142, 2189, 2215, 2217, 2219, 2219, 2220, 2222,
312, 315, 320, 320, 326, 329, 331, 332, 361, 364, 364, 373, 373, 384, 393, 395, 398, 399, 3119, 3154, 3154, 3165, 3168, 3183,
45, 48, 463, 477, 478, 4127, 4176,
54, 517, 518, 559, 560, 568, 576, 577, 5100,
611, 612, 612, 614, 614, 615, 619, 619, 619, 619, 637, 640, 646, 647, 650, 654, 656, 656, 657, 658, 663, 664, 665, 666, 671, 671, 690, 691, 691, 6109, 6135, 6143, 6144, 6145, 6147, 6148, 6149, 6150, 6151, 6158, 6161, 6162, 6164,
728, 729, 732, 732, 733, 7158, 7161, 7187, 7187, 7188, 7195, 7203,
81, 838, 870,
924, 951, 952, 953, 961, 964, 965, 981, 983, 994, 9105, 9129,
1015, 1016, 1018, 1020, 1021, 1031, 1031, 1034, 1034, 1035, 1035, 1038, 1041, 1049, 1050, 1053, 1058, 1059, 1059, 1069, 10101, 10102, 10104, 10108,
1113, 1135, 11121,
1281, 12108,
1316, 1316, 1316, 1316, 1316, 1327, 1330, 1333, 1336, 1343,
1430, 1431,
1589,
16102,
1723, 1724, 1728, 1742, 1750, 1751, 1751, 1753, 1756, 1780, 1781, 1784, 1785, 1788, 1793, 1795, 1796, 17100, 17107, 17110, 17111,
1822, 1824, 1826, 1829, 1883, 18103, 18109, 18110,
1926, 1975,
2044, 2047, 20105, 20114, 20135,
2124, 2142, 2145, 21108, 21109,
2249, 2268, 2272,
2328, 2329, 2384, 2385, 2386, 2387, 2388, 2389, 2393, 2397, 23118,
2430, 2431, 2453, 2454,
256, 2515, 2557, 2577,
2616, 26216,
2759, 2764, 2765, 2769, 2772, 2792, 2793,
2849, 2871, 2872, 2885,
2920, 2946, 2950, 2952, 2963,
3042,
3125,
32;11, 3229,
3316, 3317, 3328, 3332, 3359, 3363, 3370,
343, 3422, 3424, 3424, 3425, 3426, 3427, 3430, 3436, 3439, 3446, 3447, 3448, 3449, 3450,
3540,
3679,
3718,
3865, 3867, 3886,
398, 399, 3910, 3911, 3913, 3914, 3915, 3938, 3938, 3939, 3943, 3944, 3946, 3953, 3964,
4066,
416, 419, 4113, 4144, 4152,
4215, 4223,
4324, 4381, 4389,
4514, 4526,
464, 468, 469, 4610,
4811, 4815, 4816,
4914, 4914, 4916, 4917,
5231,
5649,
626, 628, 6211,
647,
6723, 6724, 6726, 6728, 6729, 6730,
721, 7220, 7221, 7222, 7225,
7918,
1091,
1121,
1131,
1141
perf. pass. 211
impf. pass. 2160, 4143, 8317
n.vb. 259, 2113, 2118, 2204, 2235, 2263, 3147, 3181, 45, 48, 49, 463, 4108, 4148, 4155, 4156, 4157, 563, 673, 6112, 7162, 7205, 930, 930, 1065, 1140, 1153, 135, 1310, 1333, 1427, 1640, 1686, 1716, 1723, 1728, 1740, 1893, 1934, 207, 2028, 2044, 2089, 2094, 20109, 214, 2127, 21110, 2224, 2230, 2327, 2368, 2451, 2719, 2782, 2785, 2851, 2863, 3213, 334, 3332, 3332, 3370, 34;31, 367, 3658, 3670, 3676, 3731, 3918, 4125, 4133, 4618, 4721, 4730, 492, 5018, 5029, 518, 581, 582, 604, 634, 6713, 6940, 6941, 6942, 6944, 735, 7425, 8119, 8125, 8613
pcple. act. 1210, 1819, 23100, 3318, 3751qil n.m. 4122, 4388, 5626, 736
taqawwala vb. (5) perf. act. 5233, 6944
LL, V7, p 248, 249 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=qwl
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However i could have misunderstood you so correct me if i am incorrect on this.
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However i could have misunderstood you so correct me if i am incorrect on this.
yes misunderstood me -- they were not all speaking in Arabic back then, right?
1894 (this is in Arabic)
"not Arabic translation to Arabic" i.e. what they actually said in their language.likewise dialog with magicians
7113-114 2641-42
Arabic part { said they of to firaun}
translated into Arabic part {" inna/indeed a-inna/is there for us surely reward of if be we we are the victors said yes and surely you idhan/then surely among the near being"} -
peace, another example note all translations have 7123 "in him" wrong and should be as in verse
23117 ? lahu/to him bihi/in it
7123-124 said firaun believe you bihi/in it before that I permit to you indeed this surely plan planned ye it in the town to thou evict ye of therein family hers so soon thou knowing surely severs I hands yours and feet yours from opposite furthermore surely backbones I you all together
2649 said believe you lahu/to him before that I permit to you indeed he surely great/chief yours the one taught you the magic so surely soon thou knowing surely severs I hands yours and feet yours from opposite and surely backbones I you all together
2071 said believe you lahu/to him before that I permit to you indeed he surely great/chief yours the one taught you the magic so surely severs I hands yours and feet yours from opposite and surely backbones I you in trunks the date palm and surely know you which of us vigorous punishment of and lasts
7123-124 2071 2649 fuller dialog; again verses above are "excerpts" similar as we partially "quote" on this forum.
said firaun " believe you lahu/to him bihi/in it before that I permit to you indeed he surely great/chief yours the one taught you the magic indeed this surely plan planned ye it in the town to thou evict ye of therein family hers so surely soon thou knowing so surely severs I hands yours and feet yours from opposite furthermore and surely backbones I you all together in trunks the date palm and surely know you which of us vigorous punishment of and lasts "
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If i got this correct because i check the root word the arabic word you show us which is qaloo (ا and it does not say anything about translation
Salaamun brother,
What Noon is trying to say is the language of firaun was not Arabic, right?
Whatever they dialogue firaun and magicians, alQuraan translated and mentioned it in Arabic. It's a reported speech.
This is same in all cases of Rasools and Nabis. Their stories mentioned in alQuraan is translated in Arabic and added in alQuraan. Because their language was not Arabic.Hope you get what I tried to explain, inshaAllah.
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Where is the indication that they did not speak Arabic?
What difference would it make anyway?
Salaam
I'm going have to agree with brother/sister Huruf, is there any indication of them not speaking Arabic?
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Where is the indication that they did not speak Arabic?
What difference would it make anyway?
Salaam, do think Adam, Noah, two horns, Moses, youths in cave, et al mentioned in Qur'an -- all spoke Arabic?
1885 so follows course of...
1889 furthermore follows course of...
1892-94 furthermore follows course of until when reach between the barriers two found from besides them dual folk of not neared being understanding speech of said they of " ... translation into Arabic ... "Moreover borrowed words e.g. Greek silver coins drachmas.
1220 and sold they him in price deprive dirhams madudatin/few...
Like saying today in English "sold him for a few silver dollars" to give the readers an idea of the price.
E.g. in ancient Greece price of a lamb was ~8 drachmas (same as 1220), a slave 200-300 drachmas.3022 and among signs his creation the heavens and the land and divergences alsinatikum/the tongues (languages) yours and colors yours indeed in such surely signs for the knowers
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I do not have to think anything in particular. But the thing is that apart from asking me, and I was not there, you give no indication that they did not speak Arabic, you were not there either and quotation marks you can put them if you are quoting, be it original or translation. If you are quoting what somebody says, you quote, you do not unquote because it is in your own language. On the other hand, we know that int he Arabic written in the Qur'an there ar eno quotation marks, everything must be assessed from tge contents.
On the other hand all peoples and individuals alluded too in the Qur'an seem to be known by the people to whom the Qur'an is contemporarily addressed at the time of the Prophet, so, if he was amongst Arabic speaking people, what would be so ashtounding that their precedents which they seem to be familiar with should also be Arabic speaking.
Salaam
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Ok we can leave linguistics if all spoke same language, tribe, region, etc., in a different thread.
http//www.friesian.com/trees.htm
Here is another example
7109-112 said the council of from folk firaun
indeed this surely magician knower intend that evicted you from land yours so what thou of directing said they of delay him and brother his wa-arsil/and sends in the towns gatherers bring they you in every sirin/magician knower2634-37 said to the council of around him
indeed this surely magician knower intend that evicted you from land yours with magic his so what thou of directing said they of delay him and brother his wa-ib?ath/and raises in the towns gatherers bring they you in every sarin knowerTwo ways to resolve the contradiction in the above dialog, either
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In their language words spoken can translate to Arabic as
wa-arsil AND/OR wa-ib?ath
sirin AND/OR sarin (with alif) -
7109-112 2634-37 the fuller dialog contains each word used
said the council of from folk firaun
indeed this surely magician knower intend that evicted you from land yours with magic his so what thou of directing said they of delay him and brother his wa-ib?ath/and raises wa-arsil/and sends in the towns gatherers bring they you in every sirin/magician sarin/trickster knowerpeace!
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7117-122 and inspires we of to moses that throw staff your so when it is caught what are falsifying so established the truth and became futile what be they of working so defeat they of there and returned they of submissively and fell down the magicians sjidna said they of believe we of in lord the worlds inhabitants lord moses and aaron
2069-70 and throw what in right hand your caught what work they of solely work they of plan magic/illusion and not succeeds the magic/illusion anyplace comes so fell down the magicians sujjadan said they of believe we of in lord his aaron and moses
2645-48 so cast moses staff his so when it is caught what are falsifying so fell down the magicians sjidna said they of believe we of in lord the worlds inhabitants lord moses and aaron
7117-122 2069-70 2645-48 (i.e. quoting different magicians) said they of believe we of in lord his aaron and moses in lord the worlds inhabitants lord moses and aaron
Likewise the internet is littered with stuff like when/who magicians believed or not
http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/pharaohs_magicians_detailed.html
1080-86 so when came the magicians said to them moses cast ye of what are you throwing so when cast they of said moses what put forth you in/with it the magic/illusion indeed the god shall nullified it indeed the god not reconciled work those who corrupt they and vindicated the god the truth by/with words his and in case dislike the criminals so not believe to moses except progeny from/among folk his on fear from firaun and chiefs theirs lest prosecute them and indeed firaun tyrant in the land and indeed he surely among the transgressors and said moses O folk if be you believe you in the god so on him put trust ye of if be you acquiescent so said they of on the god trust we of lord ours not thou make us trial to the folk the wrongdoers and save us in/by mercy your from the folk the rejecters
Up to this point Moses did not cast his staff or show them a sign/miracle yet?
Likewise episode casting staff performing sign magicians yielding is excluded!
