homosexuality, the way forward?
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Peace all,
Just want to throw in a hopefully witty comment here,
"Just because something is natural does not make it morally right."
I see many posters committing the naturalistic fallacy here.
And to those who offer exile as a solution I thought the gays already did that? I mean, they do tend to live with themselves in self-made exiles, don't they?
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Considering what we know about how HIV is transmitted, I shudder at the thought of what might cause the jump from chimps to humans in the first place. It might be an act more appalling than what we are discussing in this thread. shock shock shock ?
It's probably not as lurid as what you are suggesting. It was once reported that Polio vaccine in Africa was cultured in the liver of green monkeys and the injection of thousands of humans allowed infection after a mutation.
Another theory is that these monkeys were used as food sources and it may have been contracted by eating of the monkeys.
The modern spread of AIDS / HIV has been tracked down to an index case. I remember there was an article about an English patient who died in the sixties of a mystery disease. The physician involved was clever and insightful enough to store some of the serum and this has tested HIV positive apparently, though this whole story has been doubted because of possible contamination of the specimens in the lab.
The spread into various countries has also been tracked quite meticulously. The spread into the USA happenned through Haiti and the homosexual scene importing the virus through gay promiscuity. I believe it was an airline steward who was responsible for bringing it into the US through San Francisco.
Some of this is from memory so you'll have to confirm and check for exact details.
Moreover in a little net research I've found that there are now theories that are different to these well known ones, of the AIDS epidemic starting in New York following the introduction of a new Hepatitis B vaccine first tested in gay males. There is even the theory that HIV itself does not cause AIDS!
http//www.biblebelievers.org.au/46a.htm
http//www.ourcivilisation.com/aids/hivexist/index.htm
Regards.
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peace All,
After reading brother Tay's post, I began thinking about what I would say. I think my main point would be that it is unatural. Thus I began thinking about examples of things that are unatural (go against our nature, or laws of nature etc) that are clearly beneficial for us. I never really came up with anything solid, thus can I request others to think about this and list them here...
thanks.
Wakas
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Peace Truth,
You stated,
Tay likened the exile option which Khizar suggested as being like exiling people with Down's Syndrome and autism etc. However the problem of "consenting adults" which saves the homosexual bacon in one argument (ie. homsexuality being like pedophilia) now is unhelpful.
People with autism do not have a choice one way or another to change.
Excellent point. The only problem is that Khizar did not distinguish practicing homosexuals from non-practicing. And yes, there are people whom are homosexual and choose not to partake in the physical aspect of it, though I dare not feign a knowledge of this statistic. However, I would venture to guess that the majority of homosexuals who do practice the physical aspect, do so in the privacy of their homes. Do we exile these people also? If so, how do we go about obtaining this information?
Thus exile based on behavioural choice does make sense.
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it, although I disagree and see no such connection. Where do we draw the line on behavioral choices that don't mesh with societal norms?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Wakas,
This, to me, is the real heart of the matter. I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and whenever I imagine this conversation, I keep coming up with the same imagined response of "It's unnatural, it's just wrong", with nothing logically concrete to compare it to.
I don't think that's good enough, because being human, I am prone to carrying cultural biases. And I couldn't live with myself making a decision, such as exile, for someone else when I know nothing of their situation, nor can I even compare their situation to something which I do know something about.
Hence, all I think I can offer is help if someone feels they have a problem. I can listen and I can help them evaluate/analyze the roots. But I cannot cast judgement, and remain honest with myself, as much as I've tried.
Peace,
Tay -
Hello Tay,
Hence, all I think I can offer is help if someone feels they have a problem. I can listen and I can help them evaluate/analyze the roots. But I cannot cast judgement, and remain honest with myself, as much as I've tried.
Me too. To cast judgement like this means we have a superior morality than others. I don't think I can claim to have superior morality...
I found this really funny in your response to Khizar and his exile plans...
-) -)Do we need a special police force to infiltrate people's homes to make sure they are having sex with the opposite gender?
What do we do about masturbation? Should there be rules in place to make sure that people are masturbating to the right fantasies?serious point but very amusing -) -)
Regards,
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While reading about AIDS in the 80's and its coming to worldwide attention I found the following paragraph that might shed light on the amount of sexuality in the homosexual community - through an indirect marker for anal sex - the use of nitrites.
The paragraph is in relation to homosexuals who developed KS and PCP the prototypical AIDS conditions (KS= Kaposi's Sarcoma, PCP = Pneumocystic Carinii Pneumonia)
It was also observed that all patients used nitrite inhalants. Poppers became fashionable among gay men in 1972. By 1981, legal sales had reached $250 million annually and National Institute of Drug Abuse reported that more than 5 million people were using them at least once a week. Drug manufacturers extensively promoted them in gay publications as "better living through chemistry". Gay men used them heavily as relaxants to facilitate anal intercourse. But heavy use of nitrites was known to cause severe symptoms and immunosuppression, and there was evidence that they were also mutagenic and carcinogenic.
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about. The theory of platonic homosexuality needs to be put to bed.
Regards.
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Peace all,
Dear Lote Tree,
This can go on forever. You have your position on this matter and I have mine. And obviously neither one of us are budging from our respective positions. For the record, BEFORE you assume that I am a Quranic Puritan and don't know how to think independent of the Quran, you need to click on my profile and view my past posts here. Then you will realize that you made an untrue accusation. Anyway, I bid you peace.
As for my challenge and my interpretation of 781, they have not been answered. If anyone else here who is pro-tolerance of the gay life and they wish to tackle my challenge and interpretation of Lot's community, I'm all ears.
One.
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BTW It's important to note that was LEGAL sales; it does not address the illegal trafficking in nitrites.
And before presenting nonsense arguments like platonic homosexuality and hanging one's arguments on it - why not first establish whether there is such a thing and how prevalent it is.
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Hello Damon,
This can go on forever. You have your position on this matter and I have mine. And obviously neither one of us are budging from our respective positions.
No problem Damon.
I believe that the idea is not to agree with each other but air our thoughts so that we can develop and refine our own understanding...
For the record, BEFORE you assume that I am a Quranic Puritan and don't know how to think independent of the Quran, you need to click on my profile and view my past posts here. Then you will realize that you made an untrue accusation. Anyway, I bid you peace.
If this is the case then I stand corrected on this.
I bid you Adieu too...Regards,
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It's too late now, you're already taking part... now get back in here! twisted wink
I guess your right, what the heck, let me present my theory, tell me what you think.
I think that homosexuality is basically a disease or like a sexual fetish, this is simply because of the diversity in qualities within men and women. If any individual prefers qualities that are 'common' in their own gender, e.g female prefer feminine qualities, it's ok and natural and genetic.
This is simply because we can find 'manly' women and feminine men that have the qualities, so basically we can find the qualities required in either gender. Seeking for a partner of the opposite sex keeps things the way God intended, i.e men and women get married and produce children, that is the design i personally understand and I'm nont imposing it on others.
Therefore I think that if individuals are sincerely looking for a partner with a set of desired qualities that are beyond physical then they can find them in either gender, but if people are more interested in lust and sexual fetished then they will simply seek for what they want physically.
Therefore I personally that if society was to be in a spiritually uplifted state then we would be beyond this and physical things won't matter as much because we'll be seeking the correct qualities in a person rather than looking for the correct bra size and correct shapeand size of body parts etc!
I have no right to tell any individual what to like and what not to, these are just my honest opinions and my understanding of this situation, I am also making a few assumptions e.g. that every individual can reach a certain level of understanding that free's them from oppresive ideologies and teachings.
Peace
Nural -
I guess your right, what the heck, let me present my theory, tell me what you think.
Its about time!!! -)
Good job you got off your backside and done some thinking of your own instead of prancing around on the edges... -) -)
Get in there man! Get dirty (no pun intended!) -)
Regards,
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$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
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ahoy hoy
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex
i dont think quoting figures that show money is being spent to pleasure the gay community is a credible argument to argue against homosexuality, whatever your views you will be able to find something that the US government is spending money on that seems like a total waste, personally id rather they spent $250 million to keep the smile on gay's rather that use that money to massacre innocent civilians in their own country.
To the idea installed by a few that we should send homosexuals in exile or to another location within a country is ludicrous, its exactly the kind of backward thinking that savaged medicinal progress througout the middle ages, its a kind of ignorance that breeds stupidity, we need to look forward to increase our own understanding and knowledge.
'all that youve left behind, will come back to confront you if you turn around'
toodles
the kebab monster
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Peace all,
Something caught my interest.
I think that homosexuality is basically a disease or like a sexual fetish
That's It!!! I've been trying to think of the description that I had in mind when it comes to this subject and I think Fetish is probably the best way to describe the mentality of HS's. Just as there are people who have feet fetishes, this too is a fetish. I even know one guy who has a fetish for sucking women's toes. (when I was little kid, this dirtbag even propositioned my mom )
Anyway I think the HS fetish is like mostly all other sexual fetishes. It begins with a dissatisfaction and content with the natural design we are made for and a wish to explore beyond what GOD has intended. I believe this to be the case for those who choose this lifestyle even though they have not been molested as children. Some people are just so obsessed with sex and reaching the point of esctacy that they are willing to explore and pursue any and all avenues. For the most part, I think these people are basically mentally depraved perverts (my opinion).
if people are more interested in lust and sexual fetishes then they will simply seek for what they want physically.
I agree wholeheartedly and I believe we are getting to the root of this issue concerning alot of gays.
And they cover their private parts.
Except around their mates, or those who are their dependants, they are free from blame.
But whosever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.
Salaam.
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Peace Damon,
I understand your point and I agree that there are sick and twisted people but I think there are people who aren't like that but are gay so to assume that all HS's are sick and twisted; would be a transgression in my opinion. I also think the story of Lot has been traditionaly misinterpreted. Hear me out (these are just my opinions and thoughts, I am not trying to teach, but I want to learn so my ears are open)-
For example at the time of Lot in his community, almost every or a great majority was practising this and it was condemned, the whole society was involved in this 'sin' because the whole society recieved the punishment/retribution (maybe not the kids, but the truth about all that will come out in judment Day) apart from the believers. The women must have played a role too.
Todays issue with homosexuality is totally different because this is a minority amongst many communities whereas the story in the Quran was about a 'whole' community and their wrongdoing (whether this was actually homosexuality and nothing more is still being debated and seems to be unknown at the moment in this thread, maybe someone can clarify). Todays gays don't harm the average heterosexual, they only harm themselves if there are any harms in the practice.
Therefore I personally think that many peoples extreme stance on this situation is partially unjustified and is irrational, and also maybe based on an unclear interpretation of Scripture. I am not assuming anything about the Scripture (whether it prohibits the practice or doesn't, I haven't reached certainty in this topic) but I would like to see a good discussion on the verses regarding this topic.
I just don't agree with the extreme stance but I also don't agree on the practice but my way of solving it would be to educate and for me to take an extreme stance the way some of you have, I will need some evidence of clear harms to the whole society of this practice. If it affects me then I would have a serious problem, for example if the practice increased contageous diseases in society then I would have a problem. By contageous I don't mean STD but something that can be passed from a stranger to another stranger with little contact or even just a handshake.
I will admit I haven't read every reply in this thread so I might have missed something big but I don't think that promoting hatred towards anything will solve the issue, it will only cause more problems. Promote understanding.
Peace
Nural -
I do agree that the fervent irrationality-without any presentation of solution-is quite disturbing and pointless...and to those who think homosexuality is something that is treatable by psychological counseling, I am hoping that you are helping to establish health care services that could be easily accessible by these people. If you are that opposed to the problem, then I am hoping that you are progressive in trying to establish a solution too.
Anyway. I have a question that I would like you guys to address. My Arabic is coming along, but it doesn't hurt to ask others with more knowledge. Does the same root/adjective used to describe "shameful deeds" of 6151, 733, also used to convey the "lewdness" of Lut in 780 and 2754? I ask this because I try to read the Qur'an like a matrix to derive clarity and when I searched the root of "shameful", these verses are in the mix. Also refer to Marie's post earlier regarding the verb a/ta on the first page.
peace
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Salaam everybody,
I agree that there are sick and twisted people but I think there are people who aren't like that but are gay so to assume that all HS's are sick and twisted; would be a transgression in my opinion.
I agree with you. If you re-read my last post prior to this one, I'm pretty sure that I said this may be the root cause some of them, not all of them. I even said in an earlier post that some of them may have changed after going through an event makes them question their own sexual identity. None of us can say that every gay person there is in the world are gay due to the exact same factors and experiences.
For example at the time of Lot in his community, almost every or a great majority was practising this and it was condemned, the whole society was involved in this 'sin' because the whole society recieved the punishment/retribution (maybe not the kids, but the truth about all that will come out in judment Day) apart from the believers. The women must have played a role too.
Todays issue with homosexuality is totally different because this is a minority amongst many communities whereas the story in the Quran was about a 'whole' community and their wrongdoing (whether this was actually homosexuality and nothing more is still being debated and seems to be unknown at the moment in this thread, maybe someone can clarify). Todays gays don't harm the average heterosexual, they only harm themselves if there are any harms in the practice.
I see your point, but I don't believe that the entire community in Lot's case became the majority overnight. Behaviours such as that take root in in a few places, in few people and eventually fester and spread. We are watching this exact same thing unfold right before our very eyes. Although HS's always existed in our society, there is now a trend and an overall movement which will allow the behavior to fester and spread just as in Lot's community. At the rate things are going now, we are fast heading in the same direction as Lot's community. It will eventually reach a point where they may no longer be a minority but will become a vast majority as they were in the time of Lot. We see it all over the place. It is growing fast and it isn't showing any signs of slowing down let alone stopping.
Things that were unheard of 50-100 years ago are th enorm today. Gay magazines and Gay sitcoms. Gay entertainers and singers. Certain states allowing Gay marriages and allowing them to actually adopt or have artificial insemination, people promoting the gay life and promoting so-called gay rights, you have gay and lesbian people of authority in the Christian Churches. Let's face it...western society has become a Mecca for homosexuailty, sin and immorality. I can go to divorce court right now and admit to not only commiting adultery, but having relations with another man and I won't be in the least bit of trouble for it. Our society has lost all sense of morals and decency. As advanced as we are in science, technology, medicine, education, arts, literature, military genuis, we have forgotten about good old fashion ethics and morals.
It's actually the same thing with pedophiles (who I hate with a passion) They are offended our society more and more with each coming year. You even have that low-life in Florida who had the audacity to kidnap that little girl from her own bedroom. Let's face it...this society does not fear nor reverence GOD. We are an immoral, GOD-Less society abd our leaders could care less about it. Sorry bro...I actually went into ranting session. But I believe I got my point across. The fact of the matter is that Lot's society was so immoral and GOD-Less that it allowed itself to grow to where the immoral people became the majority and we are heading down the same path in our own day and age. That's the reason that we as servants of GOD MUST take a stand against all of it.
Therefore I personally think that many peoples extreme stance on this situation is partially unjustified and is irrational, and also maybe based on an unclear interpretation of Scripture. I am not assuming anything about the Scripture (whether it prohibits the practice or doesn't, I haven't reached certainty in this topic) but I would like to see a good discussion on the verses regarding this topic.
Perhaps you would like to take a shot at my explanation of 781 which I have posted twice so far in this thread. I interpreted using the tools of both, The Arabic Language and Logic. After all, The Quran exhorts us to ponder and reflect on it.
I just don't agree with the extreme stance but I also don't agree on the practice but my way of solving it would be to educate and for me to take an extreme stance the way some of you have, I will need some evidence of clear harms to the whole society of this practice.
I don't want to offend anyone here, but I believe alot of Muslims here miss the point! The Quran says that it has laid out every kind of example for us to benefit from. It also exhorts us to look at these examples and learn from them. The Quran tells us to look at the end result of many of a community GOD had to destroy due to their heedlessness!! When The Quran cites the example of the community of Lot, it is for our benefit, for us to Learn From. We are being tested by GOD with this particular issue!! Too many people here suggest that unless they were there to see the actual community of Lot with their own eyes, they would have a hard time believing that GOD despises homosexuality and destroyed Lot's Community because of it. It may appear that too many muslims here may be having a hard time passing this test from GOD. I'm sorry guys, I don't know how else to put it.
We are watching the re-birth of Lot's community right before our eyes!! If we want evidence that it is an overall harm to society, all we have to do is continue to not take a stand agianst it and watch the end result of both them and us. Just because I don't somehow catch A.I.D.S. or that my son does not adopt the homosexual lifestyle Does Not mean I have escaped GOD's chastisment for not taking a stand against it.
I will admit I haven't read every reply in this thread so I might have missed something big but I don't think that promoting hatred towards anything will solve the issue, it will only cause more problems. Promote understanding.
Nural, you seem to be a very sincere and decent person. I understand that you do not wish to promote hatred, but please understand that it is the HS orientation that I dislike. I don't hate gay people. I have a gay neighbor that I say hello to all the time. But if I say that I am a believer in GOD and I believe that the Quran is direct expression of His will and intent for us as His creation, then by default I obligate myself to hold to the principles it lays our for me as its believer and follower. I am of the position that I either uphold the entire scripture or I don't uphold it at all.
As the slang term in my country goes.....We have to keep it real.
One,
Damon. -
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
Not exactly what I call amusing really.
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Peace all,
I just want to point out to those now putting forward Lot's community as being different from our present situation - ie. that this homosexual behaviour was being practised by the entire community then and it is a minority now.
Is everyone who says this blind to the fact that communities evolve?
Was Lot's community always that way or did they progressively become more depraved and licentious?
With the sort of apologetics going on for what is ultimately wicked behaviour I think that the outlook is not good. People are already depraved in so many other ways - ie. sex before marriage is commonplace, adultery is merely a sport in English speaking first world countries, and now wholesale acceptance and apologetics for homosexual behaviour.
You are the instruments of Satan in making the evil seem fair.
(Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
The accepters and apologists are astray. That's all I have to say.
