WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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It is interesting people can read the same verse and have different conclusions, but my view still remains, as stated previously
And when We said to the controllers "Give acknowledgement to Adam." so they acknowledged except iblees, he was of the jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
I believe we can never understand correctly unless we know what jinns really are, because the first verse, says the angles prostrated, all of them, meaning it's excluding the jinns
MAlaika I believe are forces and phenomenas of nature , that controls everything, serves everything, the Jinns are biological beigns, living on earth so they are limited like us
it's just my mind speaking <without proof -
It is interesting people can read the same verse and have different conclusions, but my view still remains, as stated previously
And when We said to the controllers "Give acknowledgement to Adam." so they acknowledged except iblees, he was of the jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
Damn I still remember Dhulqarnain from back in the days...its a shame he got banned because he did bring some challenging debates...anyways.......
Just to add my 2 cents to this topic
Should we be looking at verses of Allah communicating to xyz in a different light. The reason why I say this is because there are many verses interpreted as anthropomorphic in the Quran when Allah communicates i.e Allah asking heaven and earth to come willingly or unwillingly and both replying, the mountain replying etc.
Also how would the following verse tie into jinn being a different specie to humans when the verse hints to jinns having minds, ears and eyes?? If anyone is good at arabic please can you see if the arabic grammar relates to jinn too?
And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and humans; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones. 7179
PEACE
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From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
Peace, this was years ago want bring it back since other thread is all over the place. Likewise humans are subset of creatures and it does not state angels are made of light; could be hot gas plasma same as jinns.
234 and when (time adverb) said we of to the controllers/angels us'jud to adam fasajad except iblis refused and was arrogant and became from/among the rejecters
Question
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"And to USA emigrated what in the earth min/of (type) ethnicity and nationality and they not arrogant and law abiding.?
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"And to USA emigrated what in the earth kulla/every (individual) ethnic and national and they not arrogant and law abiding.?
Now an Albanian national (Afrodita) was arrogant refused to obey the law ? which above is True/False?
638 and not min/of (type) dabbatin/creature in the land and not flyer (birds) flyed with wings two its except communities like you not neglect we of in the book from thing furthermore to lord theirs gathered being
(great my dog we had since joining this site is in heaven! ))
https//s10.postimg.org/wsaxsjxwp/winny.jpg
1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land min/of (type) dbbatin/creature (includes human type) wal-malikatu/and the controllers/angels (various types) and they not arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them and fulfilling what yu'marna/commanded (programmed?) being
2218 did not see that the god yasjudu to him whom in the heavens and whom in the land and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the vegetation/tree wal-dawbu/and the creatures and many mina/of (type) l-nsi/the humankind and many justified on him (said person) the punishment and whom humiliates the god so not to him (said person) from conferrer of honor indeed the god fulfilled what willed
2445 and the god creation kulla/every (individual) dabbatin/creature from water
2960 and how many min/of (type) dbbatin/creature not it carry provision its the god provisioned it and for you and he the hearer the knower
3110 and disperse therein min/of (type) kulli/every (individual) dbbatin/creature
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(great my dog we had since joining this site is in heaven! ))
https//s10.postimg.org/wsaxsjxwp/winny.jpg
Is that really your dog? He looks cute.
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Is that really your dog? He looks cute.
yes did you understand analogy above?
- True if three+ of each type conform
- False if only one individual does not
hence min/of (1649) not kulla/every
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yes did you understand analogy above?
- True if three+ of each type conform
- False if only one individual does not
hence min/of (1649) not kulla/every
Sadly not quite.
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Sadly not quite.
Ok let?s try again.
- ?and to USA emigrated what in the earth min/of (type) ethnic dreamer and nationals and they law abiding?
E.g. blacks from Nigeria, whites from England, Arabs from Egypt, etc.?
Hence is a TRUE statement if any 3+ of each type are law abiding, etc.?- ?and to USA emigrated what in the earth kulla/every ethnic dreamer and nationals and they law abiding?
E.g. literally means every "individual" from every ethnicity and nationality!
Hence the above is FALSE statement if any ?individual? is not law abiding.Do you see difference and reason min/of (1649) NOT kulla (2445)?
1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land min/of (type) dbbatin/creature (includes human type) wal-malikatu/and the controllers (various types) and they not arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them and fulfilling what yu'marna/commanded being
2445 and the god creation kulla/every (individual) dabbatin/creature from/out of water
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Ok let?s try again.
- ?and to USA emigrated what in the earth min/of (type) ethnic dreamer and nationals and they law abiding?
E.g. blacks from Nigeria, whites from England, Arabs from Egypt, etc.?
Hence is a TRUE statement if any 3+ of each type are law abiding, etc.?- ?and to USA emigrated what in the earth kulla/every ethnic dreamer and nationals and they law abiding?
E.g. literally means every "individual" from every ethnicity and nationality!
Hence the above is FALSE statement if any ?individual? is not law abiding.Do you see difference and reason min/of (1649) NOT kulla (2445)?
1649-50 and to god yasjudu what in the heavens and what in the land min/of (type) dbbatin/creature (includes human type) wal-malikatu/and the controllers (various types) and they not arrogant being fearing lord theirs from above them and fulfilling what yu'marna/commanded being
2445 and the god creation kulla/every (individual) dabbatin/creature from/out of water
So if i get right, is that not every malaika is law abiding? I'm sorry if i got completely wrong because i'm sometimes bad at understanding. -\
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So if i get right, is that not every malaika is law abiding?
Correct does not rule out possibility another example.
California is most populous state in USA like saying
"in California reside min/of various people and they obey the law"
- True statement long as few people of each group obey the law.
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Final note on this " min/of" NEVER means " kulli/every" ...
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kll#(24453)
2445 and the god creation kulla/every dabbatin/moving creature min/of water so among them entities walked/crawled on belly its and among them entities walked on feet two and among them entities walked on fours created the god what willed indeed the god on kulli/each/every thing supreme
3110 creation of the heavens/skies in other than columns thou seeing it and cast in the land firm peaks an/that shake with you and disperse therein min/of kulli/each dbbatin/moving creature and descends we of mina/from the heaven/sky water so grew we of therein min/from kulli/every zawjin/spouse noble
https//s10.postimg.org/g6cpsmdzd/Ahlwardt_305_ch16v48-61.jpg
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Dhulqarnain,
Your said
Here, the individual, insists upon asserting that Iblis was called an angel, yet, posted no ayat where, Allah, calls him an angel. However, in the following ayat, Allah, does call Iblis a JINN.There is no need to give any other aya; The aya (234) itself has sufficient proof. The grammatical structure and context of the aya made it enough to prove that Iblis was an angel. I don’t know how much you are familiar with the Arabic language, but the aya is clear that the command was addressed to only angels and no other creatures. The Arabic word “LIL-MALAIKA” makes it clear the receiver of the command was only and only angels.
18.50 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the JINN, so he rebelled against his Lord's. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
It is a very weak argument. I can show you from the Quran that Allah also used the word “JINN” for angels as well. The word Jinn in Arabic has very vast meaning. I am sure you have already checked it in the dictionary. I don’t want to go in details, otherwise it would take a lot of time. Allah called angels “Jinn” in Chapter 37 verse 158.
You said
In the following ayat, Allah, tells us the nature of the JINN and, states that, He created them of fire15.27 And the JINN We created before, of intensely hot fire.
Wrong! The ayat never ever tells us the nature of “Jinn” instead of Allah states that, He created AL-JAAN of fire. The ayat is very clear, no ambiguity. Look at the Arabic word in the original text, it is AL-JAAN not AL-Jinn, two different Arabic words.
You said
In the following ayat, Allah, tells us that, Iblis, once again, was created from fire.
38.76 He said I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.
Wrong again dear! Following statement was not from Allah. It was the statement from Iblis. If I make a statement and you quote it in your book, doesn’t mean that you agree with it. Rather, you are just quoting it to make an argument or give information to your readers. By quoting someone’s statement doesn’t make it true. Let me give you example from the Quran In chapter 12 verse 8, Joseph’s brothers stated that their father suffering from mental aberration. Do you think this statement is from Allah?
Iblis statement that he created him from fire was his statement that is quoted by Allah in his book that could be right or wrong. However, if you read the Quran nowhere Allah states that he created him from fire, however, he did mentioned that he created Adam from dust.
Now, no ayat, repeat, no ayat, tell us the nature of the angels, none. Allah, never calls Iblis an angel nor does He state, anywhere, that the angels
were created of a fire of a scorching wind, as some indviduals assert.I agree with you that nature of angels are not discussed in the great reading, however, your statement Allah never calls Iblis an angel is wrong. I have already addressed this in my earlier reply. It is also true nowhere it states that Angels are created from scorching wind.
Now consider the following ayats.
16.49 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
16.50 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
Every ayt has a specific context. Considering the context around above mentioned ayat I agree the statements. Having said that, those ayat again do not lend any support of your argument but goes against it.
Malaika are not only the forces which act in the external affairs of this world; they also influence men’s internal (Psychological) life as evident in Chapter 41 verse 30 of the Quran. So, due to limited understanding of the word “Malaika” resulted in the confusion to understand the verse we are discussing here.
Now, Allah, cannot be talking about the JINN and men here, because they both have, at times, refused to carry out Allah's command. So, what creatures then, always carry out Allah's commands?---the non-human creatures and the angels.
I agree that based on the context your statement is true.
Clearly, Iblis, cannot be an angel, because he refused to carry out Allah's command to bow. Now, to continue to suggest or stand by 234, as saying that Iblis is one of the angels and that he refused to follow Allah's command and bow down, is to then set up a contradiction between 234 and 16 50. Al-Qur'an cannot contradict itself, hence, once again, the evidence is against the notion that Iblis was an angel.
Here again you have made an error. Like I said it before the Arabic word “Al-Jinn” has several meanings. Its linguistic meanings include Angel, Al-Jaan, Nafs (نَفْس), invisible forces in the Universe etc as they all are hidden from human eyes. The Quran also uses them in a same manner.
The story of Adam relates to the human race as a whole. There is only one creature in this Universe that disobey Allah that is human. The word Jinn in Chapter 18 verse 50 relates to human Nafs. According to the Quran, it has three states and one of the states mentioned in Chapter 12 verse 53 “verily, man's inner self does incite to evil”. It was that inner self which was called “Jinn” in Chapter 18 as you quoted in your argument.If Allah didn't ask the JINN to bow directly, then what does that tell us? yeah, the JINN, Iblis included, KNEW that the command also extended to THEM. Given the amount of Qur'anic facts about the JINN and angels, no other explanation makes sense.
Any evidence from the Quran to support your statement?
The grammatical structure of the sentences, the Arabic meaning of the words, context and the understanding of Arabic language makes your explanation no sense. You need to re-visit your understanding and validate it according to the new evidences I provided in my reply.
For anyone to assert that Iblis was an angel, hence, the the angels were created of fire as well or that Iblis was an angel and then became a JINN, as one individual continues to assert, when he refused to bow, contradicts the ayat which states he was created from fire from the beginning and, not that he became a being of fire because he rebelled.
These individuals and those of like mind, at best, can only offer allusion/conjecture/extrapolation for evidence , but no Qur'anic evidence. The ayats which I posted, clearly and unmistakenly tell us what Iblis was called by Allah...a JINN.
I have given you Quranic evidences that is clearly states that Iblis was never ever called by Allah a Jinn.
