The word "prison" in the qur'an

The_Sardar

Thank you brother The Sardar.
I understand that argument. I think there is a point there but it is incomplete.
I gave my opinion that is all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

It's alright. What is it that the point is incomplete?

good_logic

there was 534 to consider as well..
As far as Qoran is concerned, regardless of what other people make of its verses, as believers, we are to follow the best path instructed in it.

For example if one verse says to stand up to oppression and the next one says patience and forgiveness are better, then we try to be patient and forgive people. The context of justice with mercy is clear in Qoran. There has to be justice but mercy is also required from the believers.
Those who choose verses for whatever agenda they seek are not seeking to sincerely understand Qoran and its proper message.

Qoran is never about punishment ,it is about GOD Alone /system, the best choice, His mercy and system are all that there is.
Refusing this best choice is an automatic punishment of the soul ,if only people realise there is only one GOD. No other gods to run to or seek help from. Also there are no better gods /systems.
The one GOD creates what he wants and does what He plans. His are the best creations and the best plan. Sooner or later we will all realise.
But the human being will carry on arguing against GOD s message on the side of falsehood and rebellion against their creator regardless.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Ju5

Hello good logic

Coming back to "cutting the hand of the thief in
1- Which hand? or both hands? Since the verse says "Aydiyahuma- The hands(Plural) of both thieves!!!

Subects male and female thieves. How many hands have two thieves ? Four. Hence, both hands, and plural.

2- What about"Jaza an Bima Kassaba",how would you recompense the victim? By giving him/her the hand or hands?

You don't recompense the victims. The "recompense" is cutting the hands. It even says it is an exemplary punishment.

3-What is"Iktau Aydiyahuma as an idiom? like "Bima Kassabat Aydykum means "what you earned"?

You said cutting hands of tyrants in 533 was perfect justice. Now you say it is an idiom. Find a stance and stay on it. Furthermore on what basis do you claim it it an idiom? Do you have any thing to back up this view? The same words are used in other verses in the qur'an, and they appear to not be idioms.

4- "Jaza an Bima Jassaba" Recompense of what they earned/took, Does cutting the hand/s give back the value/goods to the victim?
If you insist it is "cutting the hand" you will have a problem with the second part of the verse "Jazaan Bima Kassaba"

No one spoke about giving any goods back to victims. This verse is about cutting the hands of thieves for what they earned. This is supposed to be an exemplary punishment. Here is an example of the word used as a punishment

2129 And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- that one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the wrongdoers.

5- You also will have a problem with how many hands each and how?

Both hands.

No details of how to carry out this punishment is given anywhere!!!!

And for 533 ? How do we cut the hands? No details of how to carry out this punishment is given anywhere!!!!

There is also no details on how to fart in the qur'an but you should probably be able to do it anyway. I think most people will pick a sharp knife and slice the hands.

Common sense and context of the whole verse will tell you that GOD is saying "cut off from what they earn/steal to return the stolen goods

If the only punishment for thieves is to take back what they stole and give it back to the victims it would be one of the most lax laws being possibly created. It would not deter anyone from stealing. Common sense and context do not indicate such a thing, you are clinging to the belief that you know god and know the meaning of life because knowing you will end in heaven is a reassuring thought. I hope you will find the answer but blinding yourself will not help.

Notice how GOD is not saying to us "not to carry out the punishment" if they repent in 539. Unlike 534 where GOD has clearly said "Do not carry out the punishment" if they repent. What GOD has clearly said if they repent(stop any further thieving) then GOD will forgive them.
GOD is simply saying to take back from the thief what they have stolen-"Jaza an Bima Kassaba"- either retake the goods or the value from what they have taken/earned.

Are you implying that "what they earned" means the goods belonging to the owner ? Because There is a pronoun but nothing referring to any owner, and "earned" is masculine 3rd person dual, dual=two subjects=the male and female thieves. What they earned is what they stole, or their deed. I'd like you to recognize how you can find the most farfetchd/dubious interpretations if it fits your belief and how you could not see a mountain in front of you if it went again your belief.

Please look at the picture of people without hands because of islam, if in some alternate reality of yours Allah used "cut hands" as a secret idiom, he would have a really dark sense of humor !
https//www.google.fr/search?q=cut+hands+thieves&rlz=1C1AVFA_enFR775FR775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVuInsqYXaAhUNCuwKHV_5AzMQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=592#imgrc=DxCugfnKVBgNQM

who insist that 538 says "Cut the hand" can do so, but in no way they will be able to explain the whole verse in a way that makes sense or agrees clearly on how to carry out this punishment.

See picture above.

You could say that for 533.

I simply will say "Iktau Aydiyahuman" is an idiom that means "Cut off their earnings/stolen goods" from them, Jaza an Bima Kassaba" to recompense for what has been stolen.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

There is a cluster of problems with the qur'an and with each of these problems, you pull metaphors abd baseless explanations, sometime they are not so baseless, but often still crappy. This is a big clue. Now is time to ponder this, should i believe and then ponder the qur'an, or ponder the qur'an and then believe. You will probably say "i already did ponder, which made me believe". You were wrong. I was wrong too. Please don't be arrogant and believe you cannot make any mistake. And now be honest, because your explabnations are farfetched, i can see in many posts of yours like many other people that you are biased and do not think about qur'an verses in an objective and neutral manner.
The most logic arguments from contradictors are thrown in the trashcan or examined in detail and the most absurd claims supporting the qur'an are believed without a second thought. If you are truly honest, you must stop this, and start doing everything you can to prove the qur'an is wrong. If you can not manage to do it, then the qur'an may be true. You won't be able to see any truth if you put the veil of your beliefs in front of your eyes. The qur'an says to be truthful. So be truthful and do this.

The_Sardar

Hello good logic

You said cutting hands of tyrants in 533 was perfect justice. Now you say it is an idiom. Find a stance and stay on it. Furthermore on what basis do you claim it it an idiom? Do you have any thing to back up this view? The same words are used in other verses in the qur'an, and they appear to not be idioms.

Sorry if i missed something but Good Logic is not saying this. it was from this article http//www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/cut_hands_feet.html

Edit My mistake.

The_Sardar

Both hands.

If it was the word "both" would have been mentioned in 538

The_Sardar

There is a cluster of problems with the qur'an and with each of these problems, you pull metaphors abd baseless explanations, sometime they are not so baseless, but often still crappy. This is a big clue. Now is time to ponder this, should i believe and then ponder the qur'an, or ponder the qur'an and then believe. You will probably say "i already did ponder, which made me believe". You were wrong. I was wrong too. Please don't be arrogant and believe you cannot make any mistake. And now be honest, because your explabnations are farfetched, i can see in many posts of yours like many other people that you are biased and do not think about qur'an verses in an objective and neutral manner.

Actually it's more the people's interpretations of the Qur'an. By the way, where was Good Logic arrogant and how do you know that he believes that he cannot make a mistake?

The_Sardar

If it was the word "both" would have been mentioned in 538

Meant to say both their hands.

good_logic

Peace Ju5.
So you could not explain the second part of the verse, nor could you find any detail of how to carry out this punishment.
Instead you refer to "traditional Islam"injustice and claim Qoran is the reason!!!
Just like your understanding of it, it is false and problematic and you know it.
Never mind, you seem sure of your way.
So a good job you do not take Qoran seriously, otherwise you will be cutting hands like those who are misled.

You came back here because you thought you could prove Qoran wrong, all you seem to be doing is highlighting your misconceptions and false assumptions from some false logic and knowledge . You are proving ,slowly but surely, that you lack deep knowledge of the book.
If you are not sincere about finding the truth of what Qoran says, then leave it be and do not waste your time or other people s time here.

I hope you find some useful pastimes that you really believe in and want to pursue.
I do not see a queue of people endorsing your understanding of Qoran in your threads. Does this not tell you that you are failing in your aim?
Anyway ,please yourself. I ask you once more to go back and study the book properly and sincerely if you wish.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

7.57.

Sahih International And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands of His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.

25.48
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands of His mercy, and We send down from the sky pure water.

27.63
Is He who guides you through the darknesses of the land and sea and who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands His mercy? Is there a deity with Allah ? High is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

34.46
Say, "I only advise you of one - that you stand for Allah , in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you between the hands of a severe punishment.

HaHAHAH, the Qur'an is such a stupid book...
?It says that mercy has two hands and punishment has two hands!

That is good because if mercy or punishment ever stole their hands could be cut.

At any rate, Gracious God has hands, mercy has hands, everything has hands that are stretched to humans and to all creation for our relief and joy.

Salaam

Ju5

7.57.

Sahih International And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands of His mercy until, when they have carried heavy rainclouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.

25.48
And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands of His mercy, and We send down from the sky pure water.

27.63
Is He who guides you through the darknesses of the land and sea and who sends the winds as good tidings between the hands His mercy? Is there a deity with Allah ? High is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

34.46
Say, "I only advise you of one - that you stand for Allah , in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you between the hands of a severe punishment.

HaHAHAH, the Qur'an is such a stupid book...
?It says that mercy has two hands and punishment has two hands!

That is good because if mercy or punishment ever stole their hands could be cut.

At any rate, Gracious God has hands, mercy has hands, everything has hands that are stretched to humans and to all creation for our relief and joy.

Salaam

http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=34&verse=46

Sahih International Say, "I only advise you of one - that you stand for Allah , in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you before a severe punishment.

Pickthall Say (unto them, O Muhammad) I exhort you unto one thing only that ye awake, for Allah's sake, by twos and singly, and then reflect There is no madness in your comrade. He is naught else than a warner unto you in face of a terrific doom.

...

people who actually know arabic didn't seem to translate it as hands, because they know arabic and the verse make it obvious anyway, just like in the cut the hands verses

its too bad that you see idioms when there is not and you don't see them where there are ones, they are pretty obvious really

you really believe everyone translated the qur'an like pigs for centuries? if a muslim translates "he s a sunni fanatic!", if a non muslim translate " he's an atheist trying to mock the qur'an!" but the non arabic people on internet trying to figure crap from looking at rough word translations and first year arabic lessons "surely they are rooted in science!" this is ridiculous come on people........why do you even bother? fully study arabic and then make your opinion...it's not like you are going to waste yuour time, afterall this is the language of your divine book right?
challenge of the day study arabic for a few years and classical arabic ! if ye are truthful ! God be with you.
Or shortcut stop being biased and be neutral when judging the verses and making sense out of it.
You could save a few years...

The_Sardar

http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=34&verse=46

Sahih International Say, "I only advise you of one - that you stand for Allah , in pairs and individually, and then give thought." There is not in your companion any madness. He is only a warner to you before a severe punishment.

Pickthall Say (unto them, O Muhammad) I exhort you unto one thing only that ye awake, for Allah's sake, by twos and singly, and then reflect There is no madness in your comrade. He is naught else than a warner unto you in face of a terrific doom.

...

people who actually know arabic didn't seem to translate it as hands, because they know arabic and the verse make it obvious anyway, just like in the cut the hands verses

its too bad that you see idioms when there is not and you don't see them where there are ones, they are pretty obvious really

you really believe everyone translated the qur'an like pigs for centuries? if a muslim translates "he s a sunni fanatic!", if a non muslim translate " he's an atheist trying to mock the qur'an!" but the non arabic people on internet trying to figure crap from looking at rough word translations and first year arabic lessons "surely they are rooted in science!" this is ridiculous come on people........why do you even bother? fully study arabic and then make your opinion...it's not like you are going to waste yuour time, afterall this is the language of your divine book right?
challenge of the day study arabic for a few years and classical arabic ! if ye are truthful ! God be with you.
Or shortcut stop being biased and be neutral when judging the verses and making sense out of it.
You could save a few years...

I noticed that there is something off with Corpus Quran translation, they translated yaday (&#1609 as before but that's incorrect because the word before in arabic in Quran is qablu which is from Qaf-Ba-Lam ( &#1604 which means = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (1226), accept with approval, show favour.
qablu - before/formerly,
qubulun - the fore-part, face to face, before, plural of qabilum,
qibalun - power, side, part,
qiblah - towards, in the direction of, facing, alongside,
qiblatun - anything before, opposite, the point in the direction of which prayer is performed, the Ka'bah at Makkah, a place of worship,
qabulun - favourable reception, gracious acceptance,
qabilun - tribe, host, plural qabilatun,
qabailun - tribe,
aqbala - to come near, draw near, approach, turn towards, rush upon,
taqabbala - to accept,
mutaqabilun - opposite to, facing one another,
mustaqbilun - proceeding towards, heading towards.

qabila vb. (1)
impf. act. 9104, 244, 4225
impf. pass. 248, 2123, 385, 390, 391, 954
n.vb. 337
pcple. act. 403

qabil n.f. (pl. qaba'il) 727, 4913

qabil n.m. 1792

qibal n.m. or preposition. 2177, 2737, 5713, 7036

qiblah n.f. 2142, 2143, 2144, 2145, 2145, 2145, 1087

qubul n.m. 6111, 1226, 1855

aqbala vb. (4)
perf. act. 1271, 1282, 3727, 3750, 3794, 5129, 5225, 6830
impv. 2831

taqabbala vb. (5)
perf. act. 337
impf. act. 527, 4616
impv. 2127, 335, 1440
perf. pass. 527, 536
impf. pass. 527, 953

taqabala vb. (6) pcple. act. 1547, 3744, 4453, 5616

istaqbala vb. (10) pcple. act. 4624

LL, V8, p 237, 238 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=qbl

The_Sardar

Also the word yaday is in nominative feminine dual noun, not a location adverb.

http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=55806 nominative feminine dual noun

The_Sardar

I forgot to add the word before in 3446 is bayna (&#1606 which is in accusative location adverb

http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=55805 accusative location adverb

good_logic

Peace The Sardar.
Qoran includes its own dictionary. Verses explain themselves if one is studying the whole book in context.
Verse 538 is not giving "cutting hand/s" as punishment, if it was, it would not say "FaIktau Aydyahuma" This does not make sense as "Ayd" is in plural form. It would have specified either one hand ( yadu Alsarik was al assarika) or two hands( Yadai/n Alsarik Wa Alssarika) for each thief, not a random plural ( Aydiyahuma),
It is clear from the general expression that it is an idiom.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Novice

Peace The Sardar.
Qoran includes its own dictionary. Verses explain themselves if one is studying the whole book in context.
Verse 538 is not giving "cutting hand/s" as punishment, if it was, it would not say "FaIktau Aydyahuma" This does not make sense as "Ayd" is in plural form. It would have specified either one hand ( yadu Alsarik was al assarika) or two hands( Yadai/n Alsarik Wa Alssarika) for each thief, not a random plural ( Aydiyahuma),
It is clear from the general expression that it is an idiom.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salaam good logic

For me you are correct but don't forget brother there has been brain washing for centuries by mullahs and general public get confused that why no one else in centuries said so. I guess people like us were in all times but majority rule has suppressed their teachings.

The hadithi culture was developed over time with force with the help of ruling authorities and it can also be changed by an authority.

Look at Saudi Arabia, crown prince is changing the culture but not without power. Unfortunately reformers start becoming suppressors over time and new era of repression starts.

I feel we have to correct our individual qiblas and try to convey the true message around us by education and practice.

Peace

Wakas

Please see
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403439#msg403439

Ju5

Peace The Sardar.
Qoran includes its own dictionary. Verses explain themselves if one is studying the whole book in context.
Verse 538 is not giving "cutting hand/s" as punishment, if it was, it would not say "FaIktau Aydyahuma" This does not make sense as "Ayd" is in plural form. It would have specified either one hand ( yadu Alsarik was al assarika) or two hands( Yadai/n Alsarik Wa Alssarika) for each thief, not a random plural ( Aydiyahuma),
It is clear from the general expression that it is an idiom.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

This is false, the subject is "the male and the female thief".
Two persons have two hands. If you have to cut their hands, the number of hands is 4. The plural is used as it should. The male and the female thief, cut their hands 4 hands plural.

The_Sardar

This is false, the subject is "the male and the female thief".
Two persons have two hands ( confused"but what if he only has one hand?............. brickwall ) If you have to cut their hands, the number of hands is 4. The plural is used as it should. The male and the female thief, cut their hands 4 hands plural.

But why didn't it say cut both their hands? This makes me question the traditional interpretation and also check these posts about the verse

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608291.msg384220#msg384220 Started by Reel.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608169.msg382141#msg382141 Started by Uq

The_Sardar

This is false, the subject is "the male and the female thief".

As far i can see on our brother of Mankind Good Logic's last comment i don't see him changing the subject. If i misread you then i am sorry.

Ju5

Hello Wakas,

Please see
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609391.msg403439#msg403439

quoting your message from the link and the verse for people to see

538 the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 538 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same 1st verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, please tell us how many out of the 14 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
6646, 595,
The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times in The Quran. The 2nd verb form expresses intensity/frequency of the action. Please tell us how many out of the 17 occurrences it means a clear physical cutting off?
533, 7124, 2649, 2071.
Other instances mean to divide, which would be a metaphor for amputation. In the joseph/women story (which occur two times) it appears to mean cut and not divide, but how would we pick between divide and only mark? You would guess the command of allah? Did pharaoh threatened to "mark" the hands" and "feet from opposite sides" next to crucifying? Would marks on hands deter a lot of people from stealing? Even if it did originally mean "mark" we would have no sure way to know it did. The qur'an can't guide humanity if it isn't clear.
The more intense 2nd verb form is used alongside hands only twice in Quran - please tell us does it mean cutting off hands in these verses? Yes/No.
This is the joseph/women story. But the first verb form is used in 538, not the second. And it does mean physical cutting as in the verses showed in 1)
Please explain the plural use of "aydi" (hands) in 538. Note that the Arabic plural means 3 or more hands, thus iqtaa should be done to 3 or more hands.
The subject is "the male and the female thief". They have 4 hands which would require a plural number of hands (3+) to make correct grammar.
When lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many (all?) consider this punishment to be far worse. Please explain why this is.
Actually this is the opposite. It would be better to have compassion if the punishment is a lot worse (cutting hands). Your sentence doesn't make sense. If it did ever make sense for some wierd reason, this argument would only have worked in the premise that the qur'an is without error, and therefore is not valid.
The recurring theme of justice in The Quran is equivalence or less, i.e. one cannot go overboard in punishment with respect to the crime. Please explain what happens if someone steals a slice of bread according to Quran.
Cut their hands. Or, according to you, "cut their resources/power&quot. What would it mean? Make him pay a fine. There is absolutely no indication of what would the amount of cut resources/power would be. This is very vague, one would take him a day of work, one could take his whole house. Are we supposed to judge according to the qur'an, or our own fantasisies.
If Allah wanted us to do this, he would not have said "cut the hands" and would have spared people's hands. If he did, it was utterly dangerous and therefore utterly idiotic. You are making a fool of God?
Are there any other corroborating verses in Quran which support hand-cutting-off for theft? Yes/No. If yes, cite them.

Why would we need to quote other verses? Isn't one single verse of God enough? Or is there a law telling us verses don't count unti lthey are repeated x times?

8 ) the only working example of theft in Quran is in the story of Joseph , please tell us what the punishment for theft is in this story?

This story tells us what happened. It is not a commandment from God, unlike 538. If it was a commandment, it would contradict 538. Furthermore the punishment in this verse is to enslave the thief. Is that your way of "cutting resources"? And this punishment is called in the qur'an "the law of the king" (of egypt). It is not the law of God. it is just a rehash of a bible story. So your hypothesis is wrong in several aspects.