Hafs or Warsh
-
Peace, a user messaged asking question based on Layth's article ?
http//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf
4319 in Hafs is ? Ibaad? / In Warsh it is ? Inda? without the ?Alif? and with a ?Nwn? instead of the ?Ba?.
There is no word in Qur'an with letter sequence ?
Likewise there's no word in Qur'an 3inda ?has? ?
http//www.tengugo.com/arabic/arabic1/arabic_1/part_2___useful_arabic/lesson_10c_possession_new#andii
See example manuscripts (if time permits investigate other verses); also note verse is offset by one less since initialed verses e.g. 431 ha meem were not counted as separate verses in oldest manuscripts; that's later innovation.
Berlin State Library ~85% of total text dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)This manuscript mainly written no alif except scribe used to distinguish ibdi with ibdu perhaps?
4315 ibdihi (written with alif)
4319 ibdu (no alif)
4320 abadnhum (no alif)https//s9.postimg.org/ubkxh6svj/Ahlwardt_305_ch43v14-30.jpg
Likewise The British Library?s oldest Qur?n manuscript, Or.2165, dates from the eighth century.
~2/3 of text Srah 740 - Srah 996; Srah 10 9 - Srah 3948; Srah 4063 - Srah 4371http//www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_f007v
4315 ibdihi (no alif)
4319 ibdu (no alif)
4320 abadnhum (no alif)https//s9.postimg.org/ro02kgubz/British_Quran_ch43v13-32.jpg
Likewise The Sana'a manuscript, is one of the oldest Quranic manuscripts in existence. A radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment containing the lower text to before 671 CE with 99% probability.
https//archive.org/stream/SanaManuscripts-unesscoCdImages/SanaManuscriptsUnesscoCd#page/n9/mode/2up
4315 ibdihi (no alif)
4319 ibdu (no alif)
4320 abadnhum (no alif)https//s9.postimg.org/m9woyruj3/Sana_Qur_an_ch43v13-32.jpg
-
It's good someone investigated the "versions" of Al-Quran. I never bought in to that argument. Salam/Peace.
-
Here?s another 9115 and not feared consequence its
https//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf
9115 in Hafs is ?Wa La? / In Warsh it is ?Fa La? with a ?Fa? instead of a ?Waw?.
Gotthelf Bergstr??er Archive "Saray Medina 1a" (= Istanbul, Topkap Saray M?zesi M 1)
Late 1st/early 2nd century before 800 CE looks like written with fa (see last line).
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=56Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1925 (Ahlwardt 364)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 2nd line) 9115 and not
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=480Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1943 (Ahlwardt 365)
Manuscript clearly written with wa (see 1st line) 9115 and not
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=481Rampur Raza Library No. 1, Korankodex (Al b. Ab lib zugeschrieben)
1st/7th century clearly written with wa 9115 and not
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=878Cairo, al-Maktaba al-Markaziyya li-l-Mat al-Islmiyya Great Koran Codex
Late Umayyad before 700 CE clearly with wa (last line) 9115 and not
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/91/vers/15?handschrift=170 -
To disappoint numerologists, not about hafs/warsh, verses numbering old manuscripts were different.
- initialed verses alif lam meem etc., not counted and consistently together with next verse.
71 alif lam meem saad (no end verse mark counted with next verse) 72 book descends to you so not beeth in breast your critical from it to thou warn with it and reminder to the believers
https//s9.postimg.org/uwk6803kv/Ahlwardt_305_ch6v160-ch7v9.jpg
- verse counts different on numerous chapters; work in progress can tell by end 10th verse marker.
Chapter 3 was 201 verses not 200 besides 31 alif lam meem (counted as single verse with 32)
Chapter 5 was 122 verses not 120
Chapter 8 was 77 verses not 75
Chapter 9 was 130 verses not 129
Chapter 19 was 99 verses not 98 besides 191 Kaaf Ha Ya Ain Sad (counted as single with 192)
Chapter 20 was 139 verses not 135 besides 201 ta ha (counted as single verse along with 202)https//s9.postimg.org/sqpvdlfkv/Ahlwardt_305_ch9v127-ch10v5.jpg
-
exactly handshake
people who are experts in math can atleast see this clearly .. on the other hand a person who is unaware about math cant understand what is the purpose of algebra, integration, matrix, geometry, calculus , when we are solving them in book we dnt really understand what is the purpose of doing it but .. infact all that we see(around us from buildings to toys) is based on pure mathematics . and 19 number theory has nothing to do with simple math.
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..
-
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..
Peace, it's nonsense (19 is a prime like 11, 29, etc.,) verses were not revealed with verse numbers.
891 and/by the dawn
892 and the nights ten
893 and the even and the odd- scribes used an odd-even system to keep count like an accounting ledger
- old manuscripts clearly had different counts using same text and system
- initially chapters alif lam meem etc., not counted as separate verses
- changed ~100 years afterwards using the same "text" odd-even system
- system had an odd-even balance symmetry which is easily accomplished
see examples chapter 8 with 2 extra verses (877) not 875 -- large dot end 10 verses marker.
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71/handschrift/13http//oi63.tinypic.com/29gha8w.jpg
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 331
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71?handschrift=32http//oi63.tinypic.com/6xvlmq.jpg
-
Confirmation 4 old manuscripts ch 8 was 77 verses (2 extra, same script) not 75 like today.
Basically verses 836 and 842 were split into two see manuscripts posted above and below.
Cambridge, Cambridge University Library Add. 1125
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/36?handschrift=282836 indeed the ones reject they of spending wealth theirs to hinder they of about path the god so shall spending they it furthermore being upon them regret furthermore conquered/defeated being (end verse)
(Start new verse) wa-alladhna/and the ones reject they of to abyss gathered being
http//oi65.tinypic.com/e6b19e.jpg
Cambridge, Cambridge University Library Add. 1125
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/42?handschrift=282842 when are you in the enemy the world and they in the enemy the top and the caravan below among you and in case made appointment you surely divergences/fails you in the promise and however to decreed the god directive of be fulfilled of (end verse)
(Start new verse) liyahlika/that destroyed whom perished about clear proof and yahya who live about clear proof and indeed the god surely hearer knower
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2qlqqt0.jpg
-
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.
-
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.
There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
-
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.
There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
Yeah even the claim of Aramiac language against the Qur'an.
-
Peace All.
This question will remain no matter how many manuscripts you study, or they differ in spelling and numbering
Which copy is the original copy of the prophet? Evidence?As for probabilities, Mathematics is the only Science that can give 100% proof.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Which copy is the original copy of the prophet? Evidence
copy from rk
evidence is verses of chap nine is added later and the numbering is checked by 19 formula.unique aspects of formula i think just one is enough to believe
it never changes the pattern/method/style
wishful thinking works and make you feel happy.happiness is all what we can get from it. and i think one whos happy is richest person in
this world.i just dnt understand why people beat around the bush.
and i want to break something but no hard feelings
i ve seen the debates between the pillars of number nineteen vs two blessed minds guys like noon and ayman. both of you knock these pillars out and audience saw it how strategically they change their sides giving no answer whatsoever. still they want debate at that time we have quality debates atleast.but now to b honest the nineteen followers have issues with their own simple original mathematics rotfl atleast some comedy is going on here
number 19 is a big joke of nineteenth century but sometimes jokes take the life of people moral some jokes are dangerous specially number jokes lol
-
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but
from one master copy
which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.
the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings confused
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best sellerhafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures
-
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but
from one master copy
which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.
the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings confused
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best sellerhafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures
5677 انه لقرءان كريم
Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
It is an honorable Qur'an.5678 فى كتاب مكنون
Fee kitabin maknoonin
In a protected Book.8521 بل هو قرءان مجيد
Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun
No,it is a glorious Qur'an.8522 فى لوح محفوظ
Fee lawhin mahfoothin
In a tablet, preserved. -
Peace Imran.
I keep it simple here.
1-So you will never know which copy was sent originally. Are you satisfied with that? Only there will always be doubt with your method.
2- So GOD has not preserved the original copy?3-Why would "the future belong to GOD, wait..." mean to you? Are you still waiting for something about Qoran?
4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.
Or in your opinion who was this "witness from Beni Israeel" and what did he witness?
...Let us leave it at this simple stage for now.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.
peace, "context is your friend" refers to witness at that time about revelation not numerology.
1226 said she sought to seduce me about myself and witness witness from family hers if be shirt his torn from front so sincere she and he of the liars
469-10 say not am I innovation of among the messengers and not knows I what doeth with me and not with you indeed follows only what inspired to me and not I am except warner clear say have seen you if be/is from near/with the god and reject you in it and witness witness from sons/children Israel on similitude it so believes (he) and acts arrogant you? indeed the god not guided the folk the wrongdoers
-
Peace Noon.
I think even you know that the similarity of the two revelations here is in the numerical composition, why
1- Who is this witness?
2- What did he witness to be similar?My take is the witness is Rabbi Judah the Pious (11th Century A.D.), who discovered the same 19-based mathematical code in intact fragments of the Jewish scripture ( NOTE The subject of 4610 is saying "What if it is from GOD.." some sort of clear proof that Qoran is from GOD?!)
You give me your take on it(4610?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I do not know whether it was in this thread or another, somebody said that there are may be 20 different versions of the Qur'an.
My questions which are those versions and what do the differences consist of?
Are any of those versions contradictory to one another?
Like a poster in another forum ferences, between hafs and warsh are very slight, like a synonym instead of another syninym, which give different nuances but which basically do not alter the fundamntal meaning.
So can anybody here quote two different versions of Qur'an, arabic Qur'an which differ to the point of being contradictory?
Salaam
-
Sister huruf, that is a very good point. And I agree that the differences are not impacting on the context . GOD s message is in all of them intact.
Nevertheless ,GOD has answered those who claim there are differences ,hence it is not from GOD.
It is clear there are verses in Qoran that point to GOD s design and perfection. GOD has sent words and preserved them in a master tablet. GOD has then issued a challenge in Qoran(In words and numerical composition) to those who still argue Qoran is not from GOD.
Of course there are also those who know /claim it is from GOD but refuse to accept the "number composition", claiming it is coincidence. GOD also knows this, that why the verses are there in Qoran.
All GOD is saying to all of us is that His scripture is "perfect and planned". GOD does not do errors. coincidence or mishaps.
GOD is perfect and does not err.
Those who listen to the message, accept it and apply it in their life do not have to worry about numbers or differences. Our minimum salvation depends on our deeds and intentions.
Fro me the instinct inside me is shouting this Qoran(When I read/study it) is from GOD regardless of numbers, proofs or differences in mushafs.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thank you, good logic,
I agree with you on what we shoud do with the Qur'an.In my previous post I forgot to mention, that this friend poster I am referring too also said, that in fact those differences are provided by God Himself inthe sense that we may take it either way or both ways or the different ways which ay be complementary.
Reminds me of two translations of ra'uf into Spanish, one was a bit surprising, but looking at it carefully you realised that it was a nuance that might be lost int the other translation although on the whole the latter could be better or more to the point. But without that other more "surprising" translation in fact the reader was missing something.
As to numbers, myself I do not have any trouble believing that there is a numerical pattern in Qur'an, in fact I would be surprised if there was not. I mean, it is God, which computer in the highest fever could match that? Did He not create numbers and all ways of knowledge?
When it comes to which pattern is there in Qur'an, there may be many not just one. I do not know.
I do not have any quarrel with anybody attempting to find any pattern.
On the other hand I see in it a danger, which is the same danger I see when people try to pin on the Qur'an the latest (at that point) scientific knowledge. It can only be tentative. Knowledge evolves continually and we may tie the Qur'an to something which the Qur'an does not tie itself too, and that ends up turning people against Qur'an because a later knowledge goes against the previous knowledge and the pin the Qur'an to that previous knowledge.
I am sure the Qur'an is scientifically correct, but I doubt very much that we or when we do get it right from the Qur'an, because we are already molded to a previous knowledge and we impose this knowledge ont he Qur'an but we do not extract it from it. or we may feel enthusiastical about some theory and pin it on the Qur'an but in fact it may not be such a great theory after some time. We do not have to tie the Qur'an. We may count on it or get ideas from it, but e should not tie to our ork with such ideas. Qur'an is not there to teach science but to teach us to love knowledge, beauty and truth. The rest is for us to go through our different yihads.
Salaam
