homosexuality, the way forward?
-
Peace all,
Is everyone who says this blind to the fact that communities evolve?
Was Lot's community always that way or did they progressively become more depraved and licentious?
With the sort of apologetics going on for what is ultimately wicked behaviour I think that the outlook is not good. People are already depraved in so many other ways - ie. sex before marriage is commonplace, adultery is merely a sport in English speaking first world countries, and now wholesale acceptance and apologetics for homosexual behaviour.
You are the instruments of Satan in making the evil seem fair.
My sentiments exactly, I agree with you 100%. That's the point that I tried to make in my last post.
I don't believe that the entire community in Lot's case became the majority overnight. Behaviours such as that take root in in a few places, in few people and eventually fester and spread. We are watching this exact same thing unfold right before our very eyes. Although HS's always existed in our society, there is now a trend and an overall movement which will allow the behavior to fester and spread just as in Lot's community. At the rate things are going now, we are fast heading in the same direction as Lot's community. It will eventually reach a point where they may no longer be a minority but will become a vast majority as they were in the time of Lot. We see it all over the place. It is growing fast and it isn't showing any signs of slowing down let alone stopping.
Things that were unheard of 50-100 years ago are th enorm today. Gay magazines and Gay sitcoms. Gay entertainers and singers. Certain states allowing Gay marriages and allowing them to actually adopt or have artificial insemination, people promoting the gay life and promoting so-called gay rights, you have gay and lesbian people of authority in the Christian Churches. Let's face it...western society has become a Mecca for homosexuailty, sin and immorality. I can go to divorce court right now and admit to not only commiting adultery, but having relations with another man and I won't be in the least bit of trouble for it. Our society has lost all sense of morals and decency. As advanced as we are in science, technology, medicine, education, arts, literature, military genuis, we have forgotten about good old fashion ethics and morals.
Salaam.
-
Peace Truth,
You stated, I presume indirectly at me
before presenting nonsense arguments like platonic homosexuality and hanging one's arguments on it - why not first establish whether there is such a thing and how prevalent it is.
I'm not sure if you noticed but I did say "I dare not feign a knowledge of this statistic", hence your notion of me hanging my argument on it is moot.
Nevertheless, it seems pretty clear that we have different views on this topic. I respect your opinion, as I always have.
Just for the sake of clarity, I neither accept nor apologize for homosexuality. I feel it is wrong and unnatural, without a doubt. But I feel this topic requires a more clear definition than "wrong" and "unnatural". To me, that is just too subjective and vague an explanation, especially if the consensus solution is exile.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
$250 million worth of nitrites being used annually by a mere 2-4% of the US population (homosexual men) to facilitate anal sex. That's 1981 money we're talking about.....
Thank you Truth for this interesting but very amusing fact -) -)
Regards,
Not exactly what I call amusing really.
Why not man? I mean who could be interested in this fact if not for amusement? -)
Regards,
-
Salaams Lote, All
Have I used any quranic verses to justify a "pro-gay" stance as you say? Show me one example? I know what is in every scripture regarding homosexuality. But is standing up for TOLERANCE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING anyway pro-gay? I think not.
My God is the God of COMPASSION. "He" starts his Scripture with these words
"In the name of the God who is MOST COMPASSIONATE..."
This is the principle I aply to my life. Human compassion is not easy Damon. To be compassionate requires a degree of dedication, knowledge and understanding. Human compassion needs to be nurtured and cultivated because it does not always comes easily to us...
Anyway this has been very interesting debate. I have said as much I can say on this matter. I hope I have been consistent in my views throughout in respects to Pro-Tolerance, Pro-compassion and Pro-understanding...
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
-
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
-
Salaam Lote,
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it! -
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it!Perhaps you should argue with God yourself with your God-given reason and not with the scripture itself that came via a flawed human being?
If Damon, Truth and others have made their mind up to follow scripture to every letter, comma and full stop then thats all truely well and good.
But should that make you do the same? Should you not use your own God-given reason to arrive at your own understanding of God and religion?...Don't make any scripture an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress Taj...
Regards,
-
Ok! Ok! Don't panic now!!!
Damon and Truth and all the God Alone, Quran Alone Believers have all made up their minds to follow God's orders. That said, you should then argue with God and not them. Think about it!Perhaps you should argue with God yourself with your God-given reason and not with the scripture itself that came via a flawed human being?
If Damon, Truth and others have made their mind up to follow scripture to every letter, comma and full stop then thats all truely well and good.
But should that make you do the same? Should you not use your own God-given reason to arrive at your own understanding of God and religion?...Don't make any scripture an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual progress Taj...
Regards,
Ok!
-
Allah commands us to rid ourselves from all compassion and tolerance when it comes to dealing with those who are violating God's laws. Please read well the Ayah .
Oh Taj, you don't really mean that do you?
Can anyone be that heartless? I can't Taj. I can't.
Compassion is the Ethos of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human...
Regards,
689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.
7214 " `Among us are the submitters, and among us are the compromisers.' " As for those who submitted, they are on the right path.
7215 As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
-
Peace Damon,
I agree with you on your point, but I don't know or haven't been to your home country, but it doesn't seem to be a growing trend in this country and I think that someone would be paranoid to claim this.
When the situation comes in this country when the evil is clear and the problems and signs are there then I will react in such a manner.
Peace
Nural -
It seems that Lote believes that his intellect is above and beyond God's words! And if God's demands don't fit Lote's definition of love then it should not be followed!
With due respects to you I don't think you can prove to yourself that these are God's words let alone me.
And you are right. Human intellect can't be beyond Gods that is why no human words can justify the reality we call God.
You are stuck like the rest of us. The scripture came through a human being and therefore no one can be sure if these are the actual words of God. There is no way of getting around this. You either have faith in it or you don't or you can use your God-given reason to find your own understanding of God. Use scripture as a guide to understanding the divine not the absolute truth you propound it to be...
But in the end if you want the scripture to be the absolute truth in your life then thats well and truly good for you but don't assume that others should do it too.
Let others use their Reason, Intuitions and Imaginations to arrive at their own understanding of the the God that created them.
And you can address the question to me as oppose to Truth! Don't worry I don't bite...
Regards,
-
7215 As for the compromisers, they will be fuel for Gehenna.
Please Truth, don't scare me with the reality of Hell.
I am not a child anymore! I have grown up.Hell is about the human fear of physical pain! I have outgrown
this limited concept of Hell long time ago.Living with the consequences of your actions is the True Punishment
as opposed to being tortured by demonic angels in hell fire...Please let go of your fear and try to understand the Reality of God
with reason, intuition and imaginations.Reason, intuitions and imaginations is our only True guide to God who lies beyond language and reason... approach God not out of fear but to understand so that you can grow both intellectually and spiritually towards our end goal which is a return to the Divine...
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Regards,
-
Please Truth, don't scare me with the reality of Hell.
I am not a child anymore! I have grown up.Khi- Dont u believe in heaven n hell where one wld go after judgement passed by GOD?
Hell is about the human fear of physical pain! I have outgrown
this limited concept of Hell long time ago.Khi- Hell is a dimension where ppl wld eperience extreme heat. The allegory of this heat intensity is also given in the Quran
If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
Thus it will be very aweful. Also the skin which conatins the pain receptors will be refreshed again n again
Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
Thus we must be aware of the punishment n do our best 2 be righteous.Living with the consequences of your actions is the True Punishment
as opposed to being tortured by demonic angels in hell fire...Khi- Who says the angels punish us there? They will only stand guard. The punishment is the extreme claimate in hell n the pain of its heat. The consequences of our actions which we face here on earth r nothing compared with the punishment of hell. Infact some ppl like drug dealer bosses live a very happy life throughout despite their evil deeds. They deserve punishment n they will ultimately get it in hell.
Please let go of your fear and try to understand the Reality of God
with reason, intuition and imaginations.Khi- GOD says many times in the Quran tht we must fear HIM. Thus we must always be aware of the punishment of GOD. We shld not fear hell itself but GOD Who has made it n HE is the one Who throws the wrongdoers into it.
Reason, intuitions and imaginations is our only True guide to God who lies beyond language and reason... approach God not out of fear but to understand so that you can grow both intellectually and spiritually towards our end goal which is a return to the Divine...
Khi- While it is true tht reason, logic n intellect leads 2 GOD we must also use the heart. There r ppl who rely on the heart's feelings alone, which is wrong. Then there r those who rely only on reson n intellect which is also wrong. I use both coz both were given 2 me by GOD. Thus i use reason 2 come 2 GOD n then i obviously fear Him n repent 2 Hin whenver i can. IMO this is the best way 2 become pious n righteous.
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Khi- Wht do u mean? Shld we cast the Quran aside? The Quran has been sent down as a mercy n guidance 2 us from GOD. N we must obey n do our best 2 follow whts in there. GOD Bless!
-
Peace All,
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D
-
Greetings with peace,
In effect, abandon your thinking mind and just join the subjective gang who think they experience God by reaching "spiritual fulfilment". "spiritual fulfilment" is a load of crap with little substance. That's why it is "spiritual".
Anwar Azim
Peace All,
You have all come this far by rejecting hadiths using your reason. Dont make scripture another obstacle in your road to spiritual fulfilment...
Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D
-
Isn't this interesting logic? So we rejected traditional hadith. Why not reject the best hadith (quran). Infact, why stop there?... how about rejecting God altogether? roll
I see you refer Quran as a hadith? What does hadith mean? Is it not sayings of the prophet hadiths?
God is not the Scripture. Scripture is a guide to understanding God.
Don't idolise Quran, Zenje, like hadithist idolise the Prophet. Scripture is an interpretation of the divine in words. Try to go beyond it. Use your Reason but don't make Quran your REASON.Oh and btw, the scripture is no obstacle at all, as a matter of fact, makes the road to spiritual fulfillment much easier and smoother. D
Thats well and good for you and I am happy for you. -)
Regards,
-
In effect, abandon your thinking mind...
Looks like you have already abandoned yours. If you have an argument then put it forward...
Regards,
-
Peace Lote Tree,
Don't idolise Quran, Zenje, like hadithist idolise the Prophet. Scripture is an interpretation of the divine in words. Try to go beyond it. Use your Reason but don't make Quran your REASON
I don't idolize quran. If you only knew how my 'close' my understanding is to yours. However, I do use it, as I said, as a tool to the path to God... and it has proved more than helpful so far. D
-
Khi- Dont u believe in heaven n hell where one wld go after judgement passed by GOD?
Perahps in symbolic and metaphoric terms and not in a literal sense...
Khi- Hell is a dimension where ppl wld eperience extreme heat. The allegory of this heat intensity is also given in the Quran
If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
Thus it will be very aweful. Also the skin which conatins the pain receptors will be refreshed again n again
Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. Thus we must be aware of the punishment n do our best 2 be righteous.This is a physical description of hell. That is why human fear it. Without a personal revelation Khizar it will be unjust for God to make us suffer like this for all eternity. But we must look at heaven and hell in a more symbolic and metaphoric terms.
Khi- GOD says many times in the Quran tht we must fear HIM. Thus we must always be aware of the punishment of GOD. We shld not fear hell itself but GOD Who has made it n HE is the one Who throws the wrongdoers into it.
Fear out of love of God is much much better than fear of God out of Eternal Punishment....
Khi- While it is true tht reason, logic n intellect leads 2 GOD we must also use the heart. There r ppl who rely on the heart's feelings alone, which is wrong. Then there r those who rely only on reson n intellect which is also wrong. I use both coz both were given 2 me by GOD. Thus i use reason 2 come 2 GOD n then i obviously fear Him n repent 2 Hin whenver i can. IMO this is the best way 2 become pious n righteous.
Then you are on right track Khizar....
Khi- Wht do u mean? Shld we cast the Quran aside? The Quran has been sent down as a mercy n guidance 2 us from GOD. N we must obey n do our best 2 follow whts in there. GOD Bless!
Use quran as a guidance Khizar in understanding God...Reality of God is inifinately complex and therefore no scripture can do justice to this reality with words...
Regards,