God's word or human's word ?
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Hello Khizar,
I find your certitude of many things bafflingly very reassuring. And your enthusiasm for bizzare facts, fictions and factions from the Internet very amusing and entertaining. And the great thing is that nothing gets you down, which is a remarkable assertion of the durability of the human spirit in you -)
Khi- Salam. Thanku very much.
But let me say this to you I do not doubt the authenticity of the scripture but I believe that scripture is only an interpretation of the divine experience in words...
Khi- I wldnt say Divine experience but Divine Knowledge translated into human language 4 GOD does not need 2 experience anything. He already knows it all.
But I must admit that the mathematical miracle did sound very exciting at first but became a huge let down for me when I investigated it.
I wait Mr. Yuksels reply to Ayman to see if I could see this miracle as you do...Khi- Yes plz do tht n do inform me when the reply has taken place in case i forget. GOD Bless!
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Hi LoteTree,
Hello Marie,
Can I ask a similar question , can we prove that the quran is human's word?
I think we can answer it according several criterions based on logic and reason
God's words are free from contradictions..
Human words are not free from errors, contradictions..Good marie, good tactic. Answer the question with another question -)
The God gives us reason and we are able to answer my question, the answer is inside the quran.
But marie, this is not about if there are contradiction in the scripture. If it was about contradictions then I could say Mozart Piano 23 is without contradiction or Shakespear's sonnet 118 is without contradiction or the Pythagorean Theorem is without contradiction.
We can compare similar sources; two spiritual guides like the quran and alinjeel.
Mozart Piano is man made, one can do better lolThis is about the interpretation of the Divine with the limited capabilities of human language.
I consider the quran as a clear book/guide, not an enigma. The God sends His messengers in order to make our life easy.
All religions assert that God is beyond Reason and Language. So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason?
The God do it nicely for us through His clear message and through the creation.
How do you describe the truth of colour to someone who is born blind? or truth of music to someone who is born deaf? You can't marie, not with words. They have to experience this truth for
themselves to "know" that it exists. Some truths Marie, have to be experienced and can't be described with words.This is another subject. My question is about the quran, I think it is a spiritual guide for all human beings whatever their their physical handicap. We can reach certitude with our reason.
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God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they Say ?What does God want with this example?? He lets many stray by it, and He guides many, but He only lets stray the evildoers.
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Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
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The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
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The God gives us reason and we are able to answer my question, the answer is inside the quran.
No. Marie answer is within ourselves. Quran is a guide to understanding and unlocking this anwer in ourselves. But it is only a guide and not the absolute truth...
We can compare similar sources; two spiritual guides like the quran and alinjeel. Mozart Piano is man made, one can do better lol
I meant Mozart Piano Sonata number 23. It has no contradictions. So is one of Shakespeare sonnets. But if you are saying spiritual guides - then have you read Bagavad Gita? That's a dialogue on human soul and the Divine. You will find no contradictions there. It is like a bright shining jewel that shines in the heart of Great Epic Mahabarata. Again marie we can't escape the fact that they came through a human being.
I consider the quran as a clear book/guide, not an enigma. The God sends His messengers in order to make our life easy.
No, Quran is not an enigma but it is a great spiritual work. It is a guide to understanding divinity. We should go beyond scripture Marie and not idolise it in anyway. If quran is clear to you, then thats well and truly good. But I am not saying if it is clear or not but rather it is an interpretation in words the wordless reality of that is the divine...
The God do it nicely for us through His clear message and through the creation
The message is an interpretation of reality that is beyond reason and language. This is the insight of the great seers, sages, prophets and mystics that have come and gone in the bygone ages of this world. Even meditators of today say there is a another level of perception which lies beyond the ordinary thought processes which can't be put into words...
How do you describe the truth of colour to someone who is born blind? or truth of music to someone who is born deaf? You can't marie, not with words. They have to experience this truth for
themselves to "know" that it exists. Some truths Marie, have to be experienced and can't be described with words.This is another subject. My question is about the quran, I think it is a spiritual guide for all human beings whatever their their physical handicap. We can reach certitude with our reason.
No, this is relevant here, Marie. I suggest that you read the revelation verses in the quran and perhaps the oral traditions that goes with it (I know you might have rejected those oral traditions but they still have some historical value if not religious). And you will see that Muhammad always struggled to make sense of the images and symbols that came during his trances. God even advises Muhammad not to rush the meaning of a particular symbol until the symbol itself became clear in his mind. Compare this "prophetic" revelations with the experiences of meditators and mystics that have come and gone in the the past ages of this world and you realise that the experience is quite similiar. They all speak of a reality that is beyond language and reason. Even though this reality is beyond language and reason, it has not stopped human beings trying to make sense of this reality with limited capabilities of human language...
Regards,
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Peace Lote Tree,
But I am not saying if it is clear or not but rather it is an interpretation in words the wordless reality of that is the divine...
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not the wordless divinity enter thru the reading? Just like it could thru meditation? idea Why does it have to be every other way, but quran?
We should go beyond scripture Marie and not idolise it in anyway.
Now this is idolizing the quran.http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43996#43996
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Hello Zenje,
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not the wordless divinity enter thru the reading? Just like it could thru meditation? idea Why does it have to be every other way, but quran?
Wordless Divinity can only be experienced Zenje, just like the truth of colour have to be experienced by those that are born blind to "know" that it exists. Language does not do justice to this wordless reality.
If you read the short Surah's of the Quran and if you have some poetic leanings, then you would realise that the human language "splintering" under the Divine impact. The short surahs are the most poetic and beautiful of all the surahs in the quran. And the amazing sound the words make can penetrate to core of your soul.
Regards,
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Wordless Divinity can only be experienced Zenje, just like the truth of colour have to be experienced by those that are born blind to "know" that it exists.
Yet to the blond man, words are what he has. Try not to compare man made words and Divine words.Language does not do justice to this wordless reality.
Ofcourse not! That's why it's a means, and not the end. idea
- And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they Say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.?
- ?And why shouldn?t we believe in God and what has come to us of the truth? And we yearn that our Lord admits us with the righteous people.?
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peace All,
I find it a little surprising that comments are made, and it is implied somehow that this view is outwith al quran or somehow al quran doesn't acknowledge this or perople take things to extremes. I've commented on this before but anyways, I'm not sure what all the hullabaloo* is about, but I will use one example to demonstrate my point. I could have used others (not necessarily on this thread) or by other members
*I love that word.
The God gives us reason and we are able to answer my question, the answer is inside the quran.
No. Marie answer is within ourselves. Quran is a guide to understanding and unlocking this anwer in ourselves. But it is only a guide and not the absolute truth...
4153 proves al quran itself states evidence/signs/answer is within ourself and in the horizons. It uses the same word, i.e. signs/ayatin as is used for "verses" in al quran, thus the answer is not only within it, it is within ourselves, it is within the external, it is within everything! I repeat - everything!
There are many ways to verify al quran and this notion is repeated numerous times in al quran.Wakas
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Salaam Everybody,
Good question and good topic Sister Marie. D
If you all don't mind, I would like to kill two birds with one stone.....
1). Whether or not the Quran is revealed by GOD.
2). That it has been protected and preserved without the use of a mathematical code.
First, I would like to bring to everyone's attention the assertion that The Quran makes
This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible; for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
We have a choice to make. We can either believe or disbelieve this assertion. We are faced with this same choice when it comes to the Bible, the book of mormon or any other book that claims divine origin. However, unlike any other book, The Quran has a built-in falsifier test. It has a method of allowing man to verify whether or not the statement made in 1037 is true. The verses continue.....
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Indeed, they have rejected this without studying and examining it, and before understanding it. Thus did those before them disbelieve. Therefore, note the consequences for the transgressors.
So here The Quran is challenging those who either doubt or wholeheartedly disbelieve it's divine authenticity. This challenge is not a mathematical challenge because it is calling for one to produce just one sura and not an entire book. One sura is very easy to produce mathematically.
I'm truly convinced that the one sura like it challenge is based on producing one sura composed of the same wisdom, truth, life examples and life lessons that The Quran is reputed for giving us. And I am convinced the call your witnesses other than GOD challenge means to bring forth those who follow your sura, live by it, share it with others and watching it influence the world the way that the Quran does all of these things.
There is another assertion and challenge that The Quran issues
Why do they not study The Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it NUMEROUS contradictions.
Notice that this verse says that if it were from other than GOD (meaning it was from man), we would definately find contradictions in it. This is a way of saying that GOD is flawless and infallible, whereas man is fallible and far from flawless. This challenge is quite simple. Find errors and contradictions in it. If you find them, The Quran is not from GOD. If you don't find any, then accept that The Quran IS from GOD. I don't believe contradiction merely means contradictory statements in the sense that one passage contradicsts another on a given subject. I believe it wants us to find passages in it that contradict truth, logic and reasoning.
As for The Quran's protection and authenticity. I believe that GOD has made a promise to protect it and I believe that He has kept that promise. I believe that what we have today is what was originally revealed whatever many hundred or thousand years ago. And I do not see any mathematical pattern protecting it at all. So how do I know that it has been protected from man's evil plots and schemes if I don't believe that a mathematical pattern has protected it?
If any of you have read The article My journey from Christianity of Ahlul Sunnah wa Jamaa' to True Islam at www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm you will see that the author has presented his case very thoroughly concerning the practices of traditonal muslims having root in the Bible. Every illogical practice, ritual and institution they practice are not in the Quran, but they are in the Bible. We all know that the bible has been victimized by those who want it to say what they wish for it to say and they made sure that it does just that by adding, deleting, changing and otherwise putting their say in it. When The Quran was being revealed, those who did not accept what it had to say asked if the one bringing it to them could either change it or bring something other than this.
When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say, "Bring a Quran other than THIS, or CHANGE IT!" Say, "I cannot possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day."
Now here's the important part. In history, whenever the religious powers that be wish to have a scripture that say whatever they wish, they would change was revealed to them. This is what has happened with the Bible. This DID NOT happen to the Quran and it could have!!
After reading that Book at the link above, you will notice that their are literally Hundreds of false teaching and practices that they wish to attribute to the Quran, but they can't!! Their goals and desires would be accomplished much easier if they could have somehow changed, added to or deleted from The Quran!! The Quran was able to escape what prior scripture could not. That article above solidifies this fact concretely. Please think about that guys. Ponder hard on it.
Since they could not approach the Quran with the changes that the bible was approached with, they did the next best thing.....
Do you have another book to uphold? In it, do you find anything you want?
Yup....hadith.
Salaam all,
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I don't regard the Qur'an as relative truth because of human error.It is relative truth because it does not address every single aspect about God, the Universe and Creation. It is a guide for us. It is just enough information for us to succeed in this life, to find the God in this reality and within ourselves and to understand the eternal....and even that little bit has been proven difficult to understand and comprehend even though it shouldn't be. Why? Because language is based on human concepts and AR RAHMAN IS NOT BOUND BY OUR CONCEPTIONS.
Everything in the universe does not begin and end with the Qur'an. It begins and ends with The God. I think it is dangerous to think that everything pertaining to this reality and others is in the Recitation. The Qur'an is fully detailed, but this does not mean it tells us EVERYTHING about the unseen and unknown. It definitely tells everything we need to know to guide us back to the Reality. If we can't understand how and where to find the God in our reality, how dare we assume knowledge of other aspects of the God and The God's creation?
Everything that a man with understanding can write, think and interpret could be a truth. Absolute truth, however, is with Ar Rahman and we are a breath away from it.
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
We do not have to exclusively turn to the Qur'an for answers. If it Al Haqq's will, perhaps He has given you the answer as inspiration. Use all available resources to understand the Reality
And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise.
peace
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
Very good reasoning , I also hold the same viewpoint as you. We sometimes forget that this reading is a confirmation of what came before it. There is a tendency to idolize this book when it states itself that we are to trust in this and WHAT CAME BEFORE IT. The error comes through the word "quran" which is many times capitalized for no good reason. It is a description, not the title of any book. We recognize the God's Word when it delivers non contradicting TRUTH. Many of us have fallen into a sect, the "Quran sect", and cannot seem to find a way out. It is one of the BEST guides to Truth, but it is a reading amongst others. All readings are from humans, but those that remain true through the process of verification are described as the God's Words.
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Peace,
Anyone who is doubting the reading as being from God should indeed take up the challenge to produce a surah like it. Just try even thinking about it.
I can guarantee you that it is a formidable challenge; no poetry, no prose that I can dream up can compete. I mean the topics chosen and the order of presentation, the disarming of arguments against is just unfathomable. Anyone who reads it and tries to contemplate whether they themselves could have come up with the things in the reading should become convinced it cannot be the work of a human mind.
My advice is to sit down for half an hour to an hour and just try and come up with something, anything that remotely would come close to what the reading does. Maybe then you may start to understand the amazing nature of the perfection of the words used.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you,
Just so the record is clear, I am not doubting THIS reading, I have found no reason to do so, I am just making it clear that THIS reading is only a guide, not THE GUIDE. It is indeed one of the BEST, but not the ONLY. It is teaching wisdom that is VERY OLD. In fact it states in CONFIRMS that which came before it.
Regarding the "sura like it" test. We are not asked to produce chapters, the word "sura" does not mean chapter, but "structure". We cannot produce "structures" like the God has done, we cannot produce worlds, we cannot produce a universe (Al kitaab).
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peace be upon all,
I agree with idolfree's view of sura being structure and in the context a struture of the universe, I think that the context of 223 strongly supports this view
O people, serve your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be righteous.
The One who made the land a habitat, and the sky a structure, and He sent down from the sky water with which He brought out fruit as a gift to you. So do not make any equals with The God while you now know.
And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a structure (sura) like it, and call upon your witnesses other than The God if you are truthful. (221-23) -
Peace be upon you,
Just so the record is clear, I am not doubting THIS reading, I have found no reason to do so, I am just making it clear that THIS reading is only a guide, not THE GUIDE. It is indeed one of the BEST, but not the ONLY. It is teaching wisdom that is VERY OLD. In fact it states in CONFIRMS that which came before it.
Regarding the "sura like it" test. We are not asked to produce chapters, the word "sura" does not mean chapter, but "structure". We cannot produce "structures" like the God has done, we cannot produce worlds, we cannot produce a universe (Al kitaab).
Peace,
This is the reason why people here fail. It's because you dream up a theory without looking at all the references to the same concept. It clearly indicates in 223 regarding what was sent or revealed not the universe or al-kitab.
In any case we are fortunate to have other references to the same idea and it clearly says quran and authoring as well as the reference to the challenge being against fabrication...
1037 This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
1038 If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
As always though, make of it or should I say structure out of it what you will. I bid you peace.
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Peace be upon you,
Just so the record is clear, I am not doubting THIS reading, I have found no reason to do so, I am just making it clear that THIS reading is only a guide, not THE GUIDE. It is indeed one of the BEST, but not the ONLY. It is teaching wisdom that is VERY OLD. In fact it states in CONFIRMS that which came before it.
Regarding the "sura like it" test. We are not asked to produce chapters, the word "sura" does not mean chapter, but "structure". We cannot produce "structures" like the God has done, we cannot produce worlds, we cannot produce a universe (Al kitaab).
Beautifully said, bro.
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Peace,
This is the reason why people here fail. It's because you dream up a theory without looking at all the references to the same concept. It clearly indicates in 223 regarding what was sent or revealed not the universe or al-kitab.
In any case we are fortunate to have other references to the same idea and it clearly says quran and authoring as well as the reference to the challenge being against fabrication...
1037 This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.
1038 If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
I agree with you Truth. Instead of admitting that they cannot answer this particular challenge as per 1038, we have those who will conjure up the Sura doesn't always mean Chapter, it means structure pitch. I see it as a tactic rather than an attempt to address the topic under discussion.
On a related noted, I think what Wakas has said on this matter is on point. I agree with that answer and the way he presented it.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace SalikahDC n all,
I don't regard the Qur'an as relative truth because of human error.It is relative truth because it does not address every single aspect about God, the Universe and Creation. It is a guide for us.
Agreed.It is just enough information for us to succeed in this life,
And the hereafter.....and even that little bit has been proven difficult to understand and comprehend even though it shouldn't be. Why? Because language is based on human concepts
I don't think that's the reason it's difficult to comprehend. We (humans) put the obstacles and barrier to understanding. It's not what's being told, thats simple. It's what we attach to it.Everything that a man with understanding can write, think and interpret could be a truth. Absolute truth, however, is with Ar Rahman and we are a breath away from it.
Question... do you think quran contains the words of God?It is indeed one of the BEST, but not the ONLY.
It is indeed The BEST, IMHO. ) -
Peace be upon you all,
Thanks for your insightful thoughts.
Just a remark, in order to avoid misunderstanding of some statement and drawing hasty conslusions , we shall avoid much speculation and be sure about our understanding of the opinions of the other members .I try to summarize my thought about the purpose of a guide by an example; when one buys a machine such a computer, it is accompanied by a note or a manual which explains how to use it...The manual and the machine are closely linked.
In the same way, we cannot dissociate a spiritual guide and the creation.
Peace
