Quran came through a fallible human
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Peace all,
While reading one of the threads someone brought up the point that the Quran came through a fallible human, I agree but that person I think is trying to say that the Quran is not the word of GOD? Am I right Lotetree?
I have started this thread to help clarify to Lotetree why most of us consider the Quran to be a guide and mercy and the word of God.
I will simply start by saying that if you read the verses of the Quran God explains that the revelation came through a flawed human but the Almighty controlled the experience and Mohammed did not do ANY interpretation. So if you say that Muhammed interpreted it, I must disagree because I strongly assert that this Book is from a source beyond Muhammed, it is from the Most High. Put the Book to the test.
I do not simply follow this book because of the reasons above, but because I have checked for myself to find that the above claims made by the Quran are actually true, that Muhammed could not have possibly played a role in the composition and production of the Quran, he is only the honorouble man who was given the duty to pass the message to the world.
Like Zenje, I have found that this Book has made life easier to understand and has given me guidance and brought me closer to understanding the Divine.
If what you (Lotetree) are saying that the Quran is another hadith of Muhammed then we would not follow it, it is the best hadith and Gods hadith and Sunnah. Hadith means tradition/narration i think. We as believers follow the best word. I understand that Muhammed recited it but it is not his word, it is from the Creator.
Lotetree, sorry if I have misunderstood you in anyway but maybe you can clarify to us your thoughts on what you think of the Quran.
Note we do not say that Quran is the only way to success, God speaks to us in many ways and many scriptures but there are some in the world that abuse this idea by placing humans in a heirarchy of power and knowledge e.g the Pope and they profit from this structure (religions) and in the process corrupt. I disagree with that and believe that all individuals shoud keep their relationships with God as a direct relationship, there are no intercessors on the Day of Truth.
Peace
Nural -
ahoy hoy
interesting argument nural, if im correct within the quran in several places it is stated how the book is divine, how it is gods word and how it is a perfect guide for mankind.
If this is the case then surely there can not have been any human intervention in presenting the message. If you believe in the quran then surely you believe that god is allmighty and he will definatly have ensured that his word has remained thorough and pure, humans are inevitably fallible and their interpretations will vary but the god in giving his people a book for them to live their lives on will have ensured that his guidance remains original and intact
toodles
the kebab monster
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ahoy hoy
interesting argument nural, if im correct within the quran in several places it is stated how the book is divine, how it is gods word and how it is a perfect guide for mankind.
If this is the case then surely there can not have been any human intervention in presenting the message.... snip...
the kebab monster
The reading answers people who espouse these views. That the messenger can be fallible is not in question. The unappreciative people however cannot get beyond this and want a book that does not pass through the conduit of a messenger. They want a book to fall from the sky.
4153 The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
1793 "Or unless you own a luxurious mansion, or unless you climb into the sky. Even if you do climb, we will not believe unless you bring a book that we can read." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I any more than a human messenger?"
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Peace all,
If this is the case then surely there can not have been any human intervention in presenting the message.
To add to what servant said...
- And if We had sent down to you a scripture already written on paper, and they touched it with their own hands, then those who have rejected would Say ?This is but clear magic!?
- And they said ?If only an Angel were sent down to us?? But if We had sent down an Angel, then the matter would be over, and they would not be reprieved.
- And if We had chosen an Angel, We would have made him appear as a man, and We would have confused them in what they already are confused.
Isn't this book marvelous?
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While reading one of the threads someone brought up the point that the Quran came through a fallible human, I agree but that person I think is trying to say that the Quran is not the word of GOD? Am I right Lotetree?
Please refer to the thread "God's word or human's word ?"
I have started this thread to help clarify to Lotetree why most of us consider the Quran to be a guide and mercy and the word of God.
With due respects to you Nural, I did not ask for a clarification of your or anyone elses view... and as I have said before whatever truth we find this truth is for us alone and it is not for anyone else. But that does not mean we stop discussing God and religion... Debates and Discussions only allows us to refine our own understanding of the Divine but it should not be used to assert our version of the Truth as THE TRUTH.
Almighty controlled the experience and Mohammed did not do ANY interpretation.
Divine realm is a wordless and reasonless realm. This insight is from the great seers, sages, meditators and mystics of the bygone ages of the world. Muhammad had no choice but interpret it with the limited capabilities of language. And even then this language is not an ordinary language but a symbolic and metaphoric language of Poetry. Poetry has the power to go beyond logic and reason. If you ever listened to quran being recited in a mosque you will feel that you are being surrounded by a divine dimension of sound which slowly seeps into the core of your soul and fills your heart with joy. This is the power of poetry. It can bypass our intellect and give us a glimpse of the wordless reality that is God...
So if you say that Muhammed interpreted it, I must disagree because I...
No problem Nural. I have no problem with that and I will never will...
Like Zenje, I have found that this Book has made life easier to understand and has given me guidance and brought me closer to understanding the Divine.
Thats very splendid indeed.
If what you (Lotetree) are saying that the Quran is another hadith of Muhammed then we would not follow it, ...
I did not say Quran is another hadith. It was zenje who called quran the best hadith and I merely commented that he did...
Do I consider quran to be hadith? No. Hadith I believe is a saying attributed to the prophet. But I say quran is an interpretation in language the reality we call God...
Lotetree, sorry if I have misunderstood you in anyway but maybe you can clarify to us your thoughts on what you think of the Quran.
Please refer to that other thread that marie opened...
I must stress this to you Nural and others too. Do not believe in what I say or trust in what I do. Always use your God-given reason to find your own answers... Be a GUIDE unto yourself...
As I have said before Nural, I don't want to upset anyone here with my views. So it is best that I remain quite on this. I think I have already upset few people on this forum and that makes me little sad... -(
Take care and
Regards, -
Hi
It is my first post in this forum and I thank you for the warm welcome you are going to express to me lol
In fact, I recently read a very interesting opinion about the faillability of Muhammad PBH. Dr Ahmed Sobhy Mansur judiciously remarks that Muhammad PBH is referred to in the Qur'aan as a prophet "nabi'i" and as a messenger "rasuul" . Dr Mansur states that whenever the Qur'aan calls the "nabi'i", it is the faillible man who is concerned since it is always a matter of "terrestrian affairs" (example "O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful". (66-2 . Progressive muslims traduction wink ) while when the messenger "rasuul" is concerned, Muhammad is an infaillible man since he is the bearer of a "protected" message ("O people, a messenger has come to you with truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you." (4-170) )
Then, the nabi'i, prophet Muhammad PBH is a faillible man while the messenger is not (and ought not to be P )
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Peace all,
Isn't this book marvelous? D
Indeed it is. P
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Peace Lotetree,
I think you have misunderstood me. My aim here is only to understand your position clearly on this issue, i am not gonna judge anyone by this, and by all means even if you don't wish to use Quran as a guide or any of the ideas I will still discuss topics with you, if I didn't I will be missing out and if the forum reject any individual who has something to say then it's the forums loss.
Belief in Quran is not what I am asking or trying to get you to do, that is not my aim, let me get that clear, I am not trying to EXPOSE anything either. The main thing is your a person and you respect other individuals and their views therefore you should get the same back.
I have opened this thread because I want to make it clear to anyone else as well as you if you are interested, why we give this book the authority and status that we do. If you do not wish to know (that seems unlike you) but if you do not then you do not have to take part or listen and we can stop referring to you and continue the discussion amongst ourselves.
This thread is also for my own learning, I would like to see why other individuals give authority to this book aswell, I'm sure that they will have different reasons from me. I am fascinated by the way in which all these open minded, logical people give such authority to a book, most that give autority to a person or a text do so blindly without questioning. Therefore I wish to learn, and I thought that you might have been interested too because in a few other threads other members have brought up 'scripture' and you have spoken about the validity of the scripture whether it can answer our question. A lot of us think that every example (needed, especially important social issues) is within the book, whereas you have a more different approach.
I respect individuals from a variety of background whether they believe in this book or not, whether they have come across it or not. The jews and christians have their guidance and I would be glad to read and learn from what they have. My aim is not to promote one message to make everybody the same but one and the same message for all mankind that is the same in all scriptures. I don't promote an arab faith or another faith only unity amongst people of different beleifs but with the belief in righteousness.
Divine realm is a wordless and reasonless realm. This insight is from the great seers, sages, meditators and mystics of the bygone ages of the world. Muhammad had no choice but interpret it with the limited capabilities of language. And even then this language is not an ordinary language but a symbolic and metaphoric language of Poetry. Poetry has the power to go beyond logic and reason. If you ever listened to quran being recited in a mosque you will feel that you are being surrounded by a divine dimension of sound which slowly seeps into the core of your soul and fills your heart with joy. This is the power of poetry. It can bypass our intellect and give us a glimpse of the wordless reality that is God...
Although it sounds good, the meaning appeals to me more, the fundamentals of it. You talk about a realm beyond comprehension, well the almighty has made himself more conceivable and understandable to anyone who can read the scriptures with effort. The great seers and mystics may have made personal quests to understand but this is not one of them personal quests, Mohammed was a mediator for the delivery of a message to the world. His purpose wasn't to interpret. This is your view and you always express it everytime the topic comes up, well I am only giving the view that the actual text has, that there was no interpretation.
Some people think that God wouldn't want to send an understandable message to mankind, my belief is that if there is a creator he has sent guidance for the people who are seeking guidance from God.
I must stress this to you Nural and others too. Do not believe in what I say or trust in what I do. Always use your God-given reason to find your own answers... Be a GUIDE unto yourself...
As I have said before Nural, I don't want to upset anyone here with my views. So it is best that I remain quite on this. I think I have already upset few people on this forum and that makes me little sad...
Lol! Don't worry, you should know me well enough that I don't follow blindly, I am my own guide, there are no intercessors on the Day, so why would I follow a man? I follow the path that I believe the Creator has shown us and I return to him as an individual, this is a muslims belief.
If people get upset by your views, then I suggest to them people that they stop behaving like a traditionalist because we didn't come this far to go back, we take up every challenge, don't worry about me or most of the others to get hurt. Trust me, this is a debate and thats what it remains. A mans faith is personal and his business and we all understand that therefore your views however radical from ours will not hurt us.
Nural
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Hello Nural,
Thanks for the clarification. Your efforts are indeed noble and I will indeed read what others have to say on this matter.
This is your view and you always express it everytime the topic comes up...
Sorry about that Nural, I must stop doing that...
Some people think that God wouldn't want to send an understandable message to mankind, my belief is that if there is a creator he has sent guidance for the people who are seeking guidance from God.
God has always sent understandable message in the form of human language. And I have always said Nural, scripture is indeed a Guidance, and it is only a GUIDE to understanding the Divine and not the absolute truth that some people propound it to be. We need to use it as a GUIDE and then go beyond it and not idolise this GUIDE itself...
Regards,
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It is my first post in this forum and I thank you for the warm welcome you are going to express to me lol
A big war welcome to you decepticus. I hope you enjoy the board and participate more often.Dr Mansur states that whenever the Qur'aan calls the "nabi'i", it is the faillible man who is concerned since it is always a matter of "terrestrian affairs" (example "O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful". (66-2 . Progressive muslims traduction ) while when the messenger "rasuul" is concerned, Muhammad is an infaillible man since he is the bearer of a "protected" message ("O people, a messenger has come to you with truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you." (4-170) )
That's an interesting way of putting it, and it makes sense too! )Peace
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A big warm welcome to you decepticus. I hope you enjoy the board and participate more often. D
Thanks a lot ops I really enjoy very much such discussions. I am finding answers to questions I used to ask my parents and teachers when I was young (for curious guys, I am 39 wink ) ; there is also a lot of stuff I disagree with but the positive point is that I am asking myself why do I disagree? What are my arguments? Frying minds er... freeing minds is not that easy, is it? lol
I'll try to be present as frequently as I can. It is a pity the day is only 24 hours! mrgreen