homosexuality, the way forward?

Andya_Primanda

Peace,

To those arguing by using hellfire as their arsenal...

...all of us will get a taste of it by the way.

the_kebab_monster

ahoy hoy

The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.

im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....many people will argue this saying that homosexuality is not one of gods creations, its one of man's flaws ....what do you think.... the argument over weather it is nature or nurture that makes people homosexual took another turn in my mind recently, i learnt of a man (whos name i cant remember) who claimed to have isolated a 'gay gene' that predisposed people to being homosexual, the implications of his findings were that masses of people were carrying out abortions in fear that they child mite be homsexual. the research was later proved incorrect and so the nature war lost a battle.

I think because no body really knows what causes our sexual orientation, no body really has the right to critisize or judge...

toodles

the kebab monster

the_kebab_monster

(ignore this, having post problems..)

the_kebab_monster

the_kebab_monster

the_kebab_monster

unknownuser

ahoy hoy

The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.

im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....
the kebab monster

I see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...

Regards,

jonny_k

Salam Lote Tree,

Khizar, is causing physical pain the only way to punishment? I believe that True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions...

Khi- Again i must say tht the consequences of our actions in this world r by no means comparable 2 those in the hereafter. I gave u an exampe where some terrible drug dealers diie a very good death in the wordly sense. Yet GOD will surely punish them. N yes continuous physical pain is the greatest suffering tht can be afflicted upon someone.

What I meant was that without God giving you a personal revelation then it would be unjust for God to make us suffer eternally because hell is such a terrible place. I know we have scripture but it is an interpretation of the divine as opposed to absolute truth.

Khi- The subject of Hell's suffering being eternal or not cld be debated as i mentioned earlier. Scripture is not a human interpretation of the divine. It is inspired by GOD Himself into the language of the human.

I know you have said the mathematical miracle is the final proof... I will wait for Mr. Yuksel on this...

Khi- Very well.

The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful. When I contemplate the natural world and all that is in it my heart is filled with love and joy. Do you want to love out of fear of punishment of this God or love God for "his" infinite perfections?

Khi- U didnt get me right. We dont love GOD out of fear. Love is a separate issue. We fear GOD coz of the punishment which wld afflict us if we did wrong. Loving GOD is an extra n separate issue. We shld love GOD cozHe has given us so much n is ready 2 forgive over n over again if we only ask Him 4 it. GOD Bless!

truth

I see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...

Regards,

SEXUAL ORIENTATION is a weasel word. It's an attempt at pluralising what is a clear cut issue. People who accept more than male-female union are betraying themselves as those who can pluralise anything to their heart's content.

There is only ONE sexual orientation. Anything else is deviant. Forget the consensuality of it etc. but homosexuality is deviant sexual orientation - it is like orienting one's sexuality towards beasts or plastic dolls. It is a practice which cuts the way and pursues sensuality only.

TAJ

Salaams All,

ahoy hoy

The Universe and all that is in it Khizar is such a wonderful and amazing thing that we can experience with our senses. God's creation is majestically beautiful.

im curious lote, if you beleive that all of gods creations are beautrifull, and i do to, do you also think that homosexuals carry an equal beauty....
the kebab monster

I see individuals as individuals regardless of their gender or sexual orientation...
Regards,

Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???

Just take a look at
Prohibited to you (For marriage) are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-

Can you see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear? Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.

I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal! Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions. Now if that is not Pure Evil then what is!!!???

unknownuser

Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???

Kebab monster said - Are homosexuals beautiful in God creations? I said I see individuals as individuals not because of Gender or sexuality. I make no moral judement on homosexuality. But you do and your entitled to do that and thats ok. But I do make a moral judement on incest, paedophilia, rape, murder etc. How does homosexuality related to incest? homosexaulity is a attraction for the same sex as opposed to opposite sex siblings...

I have said no scripture accepts homosexuality as normal. But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.

Just take a look at and see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear. Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.

As I said before I make a moral judement on incest.

I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal!

Stop watching television. Stop watching Oprah Winfrey and read a book or somehting or go out with your friends and enjoy life. Look at nature contemplate its magnificent beauty. Reflect on the size of the Universe. It is so huge, almost incomprehensivley huge - it is in these things that you will find infinite perfection of the divine. These things will make you humble. As I am humbled by the majesty of the God's creation. Your ego and arrogance will be humbled. Your ego and arrogance will give away to love and compassion and you see humanity for what it is and not what you want them to be...

Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote ? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions..

Have you ever been part of that community TAJ? Why make debate personal? Can we not debate objectively? If you can't debate objectively then you should not take part in it.

If you say you have no love and compassion in you TAJ then I can do nothing about that. It is something you as an individual have to deal with it...

With due respects,

Regards,

TAJ

delete!

Fahad1

Salam Lote Tree,

Khizar, is causing physical pain the only way to punishment? I believe that True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions...

Khi- Again i must say tht the consequences of our actions in this world r by no means comparable 2 those in the hereafter. I gave u an exampe where some terrible drug dealers diie a very good death in the wordly sense. Yet GOD will surely punish them. N yes continuous physical pain is the greatest suffering tht can be afflicted upon someone.

i agree . some verses tell us that the punishment in the hereafter will be far more painful then the one in this world .
salam.

Fahad1

...But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.

salam Lotetree .
do u know that according to koran , homosexuality is punishable by home imprisonment , like khizar has explained in this thread (i think).

TAJ

Ok, Lote! What do you say if a (adult) man wanted to marry his (adult) sister? Two consenting adults! According to your equation, there is no problem about that. They are both adults and they love each other, so what is the problem!!!???

Kebab monster said - Are homosexuals beautiful in God creations? I said I see individuals as individuals not because of Gender or sexuality. I make no moral judement on homosexuality. But you do and your entitled to do that and thats ok. But I do make a moral judement on incest, paedophilia, rape, murder etc. How does homosexuality related to incest? homosexaulity is a attraction for the same sex as opposed to opposite sex siblings...

I have said no scripture accepts homosexuality as normal. But I make no judgement nor do I condone homosexuality. I do not condemn homosexuals nor do I ostracise them. It is up to each individuals to deal with their homosexuality since it is they themselves that will stand before their maker to answer for their behaviour and actions.

But you don't believe in Judgment Day. Why have you all of sudden changed your mind!?

Just take a look at and see how Allah draws the line perfectly clear. Do you know why? Because Allah knows that the day will come (did come before) when people like you would see each other as just individuals, completely disregarding the holy bond of their creation. Sisters would marry each others. Brothers would marry each others. A mother marrying her son, a farther his daughter and so on.

As I said before I make a moral judement on incest.

I am surprised that you see incest as a crime? Since it is between two loving adults? Isn't that your basic convictions?

I have seen in one of Oprah?s episodes a whole community somewhere in the USA where the father would marry his daughters and where this practice is going on and on in the that community as something completely normal!

Stop watching television. Stop watching Oprah Winfrey and read a book or somehting or go out with your friends and enjoy life. Look at nature contemplate its magnificent beauty. Reflect on the size of the Universe. It is so huge, almost incomprehensivley huge - it is in these things that you will find infinite perfection of the divine. These things will make you humble. As I am humbled by the majesty of the God's creation. Your ego and arrogance will be humbled. Your ego and arrogance will give away to love and compassion and you see humanity for what it is and not what you want them to be...

Now who is getting personal here? Why are you changing the subject, Lote? I don't even have much time to watch TV and if I happen to have little time then why is it such a crime to you!!!??? Why are you so offensive about it? Why do you give yourself the right to tell people what to do with their spare time? And what is the difference between watching a movie and reading a book, if both teach you the same moral? Why don't you spare your guidance to the HS? Or are you so perfectly happy and satisfied with what they do in their spare time and otherwise!?

And you preach me about the wonders of universe!?
The wonders of Allah are every where and not just in the universe .
Allah's wonders are inside us as well. In looking inside ourselves we will find huge lessons as well. And you accuse me of ego and arrogance!!!??? How can I have any of these when I am following what my Creator says? Unlike you who thinks that your intellect, not to mention your love and compassion, is your god and guide!!??

Oprah was interviewing a run-away daughter who had children from her father! She managed so hardly to escape her community. Are you part of that community, Lote ? Because to you it is all about love and compassion. Nothing else matters. To you it is as follow With love there should be no limits to our actions..

Have you ever been part of that community TAJ? Why make debate personal? Can we not debate objectively? If you can't debate objectively then you should not take part in it.

If you encourage HS practice by excuses of freedom and adulthood rights, then you are part of that community whether you admit it or not. That American community is breaking God's laws, laws that you think that your intellect is above and beyond.
Whoever you support, Lote, you become part of it. If you support a criminal, even by just keeping quiet about it, then you are a criminal yourself, that is a rule that I didn't invent. You become a part of whatever you support, and silence IS support. Why now is it suddenly wrong to you that an adult brother marries his adult sister while it is perfectly fine with you that a male marries another male!!?? Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!??? Why? Can you explain that without beating around the bush!

If you say you have no love and compassion in you TAJ then I can do nothing about that. It is something you as an individual have to deal with it...

With due respects,

Regards,

Stop playing on those loose strings, will you?

--

To the moderators Please delete my previous post, the one before the last, at the end of page 8 of this thread, thank you!

Fahad1

Why now is it suddenly wrong to you(Lotetree) that an adult brother marries his adult sister while it is perfectly fine with you that a male marries another male!!?? Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!??? Why? Can you explain that without beating around the bush!

yes Lotetree.
what makes u say that homosexuality is OK ,but incest is immoral . there is certainly something wrong with your "reasoning" .

unknownuser

I am surprised that you see incest as a crime? Since it is between two loving adults? Isn't that your basic convictions?

No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.

And you preach me about the wonders of universe!?
The wonders of Allah are every where and not just in the universe

Then why are you not humbled?

Allah's wonders are inside us as well. In looking inside ourselves we will find huge lessons as well.

Then you have obiviously not looked deep inside enough, if you did then you would have come across that Compassionate God that scripture speaks about...

And you accuse me of ego and arrogance!!!??? How can I have any of these when I am following what my Creator says?

No. I accuse humanity of ego and arrogance and not just you as an individual.

Unlike you who thinks that your intellect, not to mention your love and compassion, is your god and guide!!??

My God is God of compassion - as it is written in the first line of the scripture. I just apply this simple insight to my everday life. My intellect, love an compassion indeed is my GUIDE to this compassionate GOD...

If you encourage HS practice by excuses of freedom and adulthood rights, then you are part of that community whether you admit it or not.

Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!

Whoever you support, Lote, you become part of it.

I don't think in this fashion. You can stand up for Personal Liberty without supporting how each individuals exercises this right to personal liberty. For example I support individuals right to vote. But I may disagree with their political views...

Are you suddenly becoming ethical and judgmental!!!?

We are all ethical and judgemental. It is our human nature. But you are free to make that judgement. You have that right. I choose to make moral judgement on incest. You on homosexuality and thats your right.

Stop playing on those loose strings, will you?

I could not find any strings in you TAJ and thats sad...

Regards,

Fahad1

Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!

salam Lotetree.
u think a murderer should not be punished by a death penalty . ?!

unknownuser

Hello Saladin,

Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!

salam Lotetree.
u think a murderer should not be punished by a death penalty . ?!

No, Saladin. I think life is a precious Gift from God and it is not up to us humans to take this life away... only God has that right...

Regards,

unknownuser

Peace all,

No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.

No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.

Salaam,
Damon.