homosexuality, the way forward?
-
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon.How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
Regards,
-
Salaam,
How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You're missing my point friend. There are two factors in your position which makes it a double standard.
1). You believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY and due to this belief you DO NOT condem homosexuality, but you will turn around in the same breath and condem incest. Why does your belief in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY disappear when it comes to the practice of incest? After all, they are only expressing their FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. You take a MORAL stand on one and not the other.
2). Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us. I am a father of two and one on the way. I give my children COMPLETE freedom and their own individuality, but as a parent I also have to establish boundaries and rules. Without these boundaries and rules, EVERYONE would run amuck and we will have NOTHING but COMPLETE and TOTAL ANARCHY. This life is a Test, period. We only have this one chance to pass it. If we fail, there will be no re-try. We are being tested as to WHO will obey the rules and boundaries and who WILL NOT obey them. I'm afraid that their is no middle ground here. There is no straddling the fence. Either support what GOD says or support who and whatever other than GOD says. It really is that simple. It maybe somewhat harsh, but at least the lines are clearly drawn.
One.
-
Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
Exactly.
1589 And proclaim "I am the manifest warner."
1590 We will deal with the dividers.
1591 They accept the Quran only partially. -
Salaams Damon, All
Peace all,
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility. Incest has been practiced in many earlier societies like the polynesians and the Egyptians. But with my personal liberty I make a moral judgement on incest.
No offence intended Lote Tree, but this constitutes hypocrisy on your part. At the very least, one can say it as a double standard.
Salaam,
Damon.What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda. Lote is not hiding anything. So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
It is double standard using different scales to weigh the same thing! -
Hello Saladin,
Really TAJ? This is nonesical. I do not approve of the Death Penalty - does that mean I support murder and criminality. No!
salam Lotetree.
u think a murderer should not be punished by a death penalty . ?!No, Saladin. I think life is a precious Gift from God and it is not up to us humans to take this life away... only God has that right...
Regards,
but the koran says that we can punish a murderer with a death penalty . do u disbelieve in those verses of the koran .?
-
Salaam,
How so?
Do you not believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You're missing my point friend. There are two factors in your position which makes it a double standard.
1). You believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY and due to this belief you DO NOT condem homosexuality, but you will turn around in the same breath and condem incest. Why does your belief in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY disappear when it comes to the practice of incest? After all, they are only expressing their FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. You take a MORAL stand on one and not the other.
INCEST and HOMOSEXUALITY to me is different. HOMOSEXUALITY is the attraction for the same sex. Incest is not and it is my freedom to make a MORAL stand on incest as you do on homosexuality.
2). Both acts are Clearly and unambigously condemed in The Quran. It is not up to us to pick and choose which acts are okay and which acts are not okay....not if we are sincere believers in the quran.
User your reason Damon, and not make scripture your REASON. Read what the Great Seers, Sages and Meditators and Mystics have to say about the reality that we call God. Even simple meditation techniques will allow you to glimpse a reality that lies beyond language and reason...
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture...
I am a father of two and one on the way. I give my children COMPLETE freedom and their own individuality, but as a parent I also have to establish boundaries and rules. Without these boundaries and rules, EVERYONE would run amuck and we will have NOTHING but COMPLETE and TOTAL ANARCHY.
Off course children need rules and boundaries to develop their personality. But as a adult I have complete freedom to do anything I want. But do I run amok? No. Would you run Amok? I think not. With complete freedom comes a huge responsibility Damon to yourself and the society that you live in. It is not easy living with complete freedom...
Just a question to you - if your child turn out to be gay, how would you deal with it?
This life is a Test, period. We only have this one chance to pass it. If we fail, there will be no re-try. We are being tested as to WHO will obey the rules and boundaries and who WILL NOT obey them.
Do you think this is all about Damon? The blind obedience to rule? In this wonderous Universe of ours do you think God wants legions of robots? I do not think in this way. There is more to life than obeying rules. I would say we are here to grow both intellectually and spiritually so that we may grasp something of that "infinity" that we call God.
I'm afraid that their is no middle ground here. There is no straddling the fence. Either support what GOD says or support who and whatever other than GOD says. It really is that simple. It maybe somewhat harsh, but at least the lines are clearly drawn.
I am not seeking middle ground, Damon. I can't accept scripture as absolute truth but only as A TRUTH. And when comes to the infinity of God, you can't draw a clear lines like this. If you do this then you have not understood the infinite possibility of Divine in our lives...and you also stunt your intellectual and spiritual growth as an individual...
Regards,
-
What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda. Lote is not hiding anything. So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
It is double standard using different scales to weigh the same thing!How is arguing scripture as a A TRUTH means that there is hidden agenda?
Is paranoia setting in at FREE-MINDS as well as CENSORSHIP? If I am able to make you doubt your faith then obiviously your faith is not strong enough TAJ is it?
Changing our faith in the Quran? If so, then he is losing more and more!
I did not quite get that. What I am losing here?
Regards,
-
Peace,
Let's get back to basics.
LoteTree, let's try and come to some sort of wrap up here as the topic has moved off the original post and is now into discussing other issues.
Are you a relativist? Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity? If they do not, then why do you insist that we agree with you? By arguing for so long about this you are trying to get us to recognise that you have a good argument. This shows in effect that you believe your own reasoning has objective and universal validity.
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
Regards.
-
Salaams All,
Lote,
As I said, I don't believe that you have a hidden agenda. And I happened to mention that on anther thread You don't fit the criteria of a hypocrite. Ok now, Lote!If I am able to make you doubt your faith then obiviously your faith is not strong enough TAJ is it?
As a matter of fact, I think a little grain of doubt can sometimes be healthy!
God Says in the Quran "Some doubt can be guilt-causing"
Doubt is not all bad although most of it is.paranoia setting in at FREE-MINDS as well as CENSORSHIP
Don't panic now, Lote! No paranoia and no censorship on this forum! Never before! Never will! Capeesh?
And I second Truth! Let's go back to the main theme!
-
Peace,
Let's get back to basics.
LoteTree, let's try and come to some sort of wrap up here as the topic has moved off the original post and is now into discussing other issues.
Are you a relativist? Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?With due respects I did not make thread run off to differet tracks. I am only replying to peoples posts.
Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
No. I think our moral stance should not undermine someone else's freedom to have a moral stance.
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity?
It is not important that my views have universal validity or not. I am standing up for individuals right to have views...
By arguing for so long about this you are trying to get us to recognise that you have a good argument. This shows in effect that you believe your own reasoning has objective and universal validity.
Is this all about? That I am arguing to make people agree with me? I am not. I am not that of a ego maniac. If this argument is long going then is it my fault?
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
No. I am arguing that you should not apply and force your Universal Validity of morality to another individual. I see no contradiction in this - do you? Are you against FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
No. You are arguing that Koran has Universal Validity for you and that everyone else should make this so. I say you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
Regards,
-
Dear LoteTree,
Do you believe it is wrong to judge others who take a different moral stance to you?
No. I think our moral stance should not undermine someone else's freedom to have a moral stance.
Right. So can you explain then why being against homosexuality is wrong? Can someone not be free to hold that view loudly and openly?
Why are you limiting their freedoms and playing the game of double standards?
It seems the only thing you are undermining is the credibility of your position.
Do you believe that your own views have universal validity?
It is not important that my views have universal validity or not. I am standing up for individuals right to have views...
No you are not. You are standing up for one side only. If you value everyone's rights to have views then you must champion the homophobe also. You must champion the people who want to partake of bestiality, commit incest etc. Otherwise you are being hypocritical.
And yet you are arguing that nothing can have universal validity. Do you understand the contradiction in your position and why it is untenable?
No. I am arguing that you should not apply and force your Universal Validity of morality to another individual. I see no contradiction in this - do you? Are you against FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY?
You are being confused here. I do see a contradiction.
Are you now saying that there is universal validity? If it is universally valid then you must accept it. You are an opponent of universal validity. You are a relativist. So you cannot even believe that there is such a thing.
What you are arguing for is the position of Iblis. Iblis was the champion of freedom and individuality in the way you describe it. Iblis did not acknowledge the universal validity of the God. You are emulating that position though you are unaware of it.
What we are arguing is that we have the koran which has universal validity. If you are doubting this then you are arguing against God and not us.
No. You are arguing that Koran has Universal Validity for you and that everyone else should make this so. I say you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
Yes I am someone who believes in the universal validity of the koran. You on the other hand are a relativist - and a relativist has nothing firm to hold onto. They are like the sea, this way one moment and that way another. They lack consistency and cannot ultimately believe in their own arguments because what makes their argument valid in the first place?
Relativism is the oldest known self-refuting argument.
Peace.
-
Peace all,
Well, I no longer see any reason to go on with this discussion. The lines are clearly drawn and now I believe I know where people stand on this issue. At the root of it is whether or not we will behave in accordance to quranic mandates. Positions on this are clear to me now.
What I see in Lote is double standard. Apparent contradiction. Hypocrites have hidden agenda.
The double standard aspect is very clear. Many of us see this. As far as possible hypocrisy....well, we can't know if he has a hidden aganda if he doesn't come out and tell us. That's what makes the agenda effective....the fact that it's hidden.
Lote is not hiding anything.
We don't know that. Any of us here could be hiding something and the others may not know it. For all you know, I could be the hypocrite with a hidden agenda here. Keep in mind though that I am not accusing Lote Tree of this or labelling him as a hypocrite. I am merely pointing out how his posts and comments will make it so that others may question his motives and goals of being here.
So what could his true agenda be, if he has any? Changing our faith in the Quran?
Well, let's just look at some of his comments.....
User your reason Damon, and not make scripture your REASON. Read what the Great Seers, Sages and Meditators and Mystics have to say about the reality that we call God.
An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture...
There is more to life than obeying rules.
I can't accept scripture as absolute truth but only as A TRUTH. And when comes to the infinity of God, you can't draw a clear lines like this. If you do this then you have not understood the infinite possibility of Divine in our lives...and you also stunt your intellectual and spiritual growth as an individual...
I just apply this simple insight to my everday life. My intellect, love an compassion indeed is my GUIDE to this compassionate GOD...
you say this because you accept Koran to be absolute truth. And I respect your view. But for me it is A TRUTH....
These are just comments from this page alone. We must remember he has been saying these things since the very beginning of this thread. I would also like to point out blatant contradictions in his argument.....
And to answer your question, YES I do believe in FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY, but ALWAYS within the limits that GOD has established for us.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising
And then he says...
With complete freedom comes a huge responsibility Damon to yourself and the society that you live in. It is not easy living with complete freedom...
And...
No, my basic conviction is FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY. Freedom to choose and choose to be free. FREE to Act and Act to be FREE. But this freedom comes with responsibility. You are free do as you like but you MUST be responsible for your actions to yourself and to the society that you live in. This is freedom with responsibility and not freedom WITHOUT responsibility
What game are we playing here? ?
I specifically said that I respect and support FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY BUT with boundaries and respect for GOD's rules. But you told me this is wrong in one breath and then turn around and repeat my conviction in another breath. ? First there were the double standards and now the contradictions.
Anyway, as I said earlier in this post, our respective stances are clear. You DO NOT believe the quran to be GOD's absolute decrees!! Truth, TAJ and myself DO!! It is at this stage that WE ALL should just say Lakum deenukum wa 'leeya deen. To you your path and to me my path. I am innocent of what you do and you are innocent of what I do.
Peace everyone,
Damon. -
Yes I am someone who believes in the universal validity of the koran.
I for one don't and I have given my arguments for it...
You on the other hand are a relativist - and a relativist has nothing firm to hold onto.
I could say you are a puritan. Whose is only recourse is scripture and his only argument is SCRIPTURE. Who abdicates his reason to make scripture his REASON... Puritans also see world only in black and white. Right and Wrong. But Life is infinitely complex. There is no black and white. So is reality of God. This insight into God have been arrived at by great sages, seers, prophets, meditators and mystics independently in the past. Therefore no scripture can do justice to this infintely complex reality of Divinity. Therefore Scripture can only be GUIDE to understanding God...
We can end this debate if you want as we have agreed that you regard quran as absolute truth and I don't. If you wish to continue we can do this privately...
With due respects,
Regards,
"Out beyond right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. Perhaps I'll meet you there" -Rumi
-
Well, I no longer see any reason to go on with this discussion. The lines are clearly drawn and now I believe I know where people stand on this issue. At the root of it is whether or not we will behave in accordance to quranic mandates. Positions on this are clear to me now.
If you say so. But I can't abdicate my reason and make SCRIPTURE my REASON.
The double standard aspect is very clear. Many of us see this. As far as possible hypocrisy....well, we can't know if he has a hidden aganda if he doesn't come out and tell us. That's what makes the agenda effective....the fact that it's hidden.
There has not been any double standards. I have stood up personal freedom. You have stood up to make SCRIPTURE your REASON. I have argued for PERSONAL LIBERTY, a personal liberty with RESPONSIBILITY. If my argument have not been coherent enough then I apologise. But if you wish to discuss PERSONAL LIBERTY and FREEDOM we could do this under a another thread.
We don't know that. Any of us here could be hiding something and the others may not know it. For all you know, I could be the hypocrite with a hidden agenda here. Keep in mind though that I am not accusing Lote Tree of this or labelling him as a hypocrite. I am merely pointing out how his posts and comments will make it so that others may question his motives and goals of being here.
I don't understand this - why this paranoia? Is your faith so fickle? This is an open forum, where anyone can come and debate. But why should I have to come with a motive? What motive would that be - I really want to know from you? The impression that I get from you, like your repeated warnings (Yes, I have ignored those - but you don't have the right to warn anyone here - this is an open forum!) that we have to debate with scripture as our reason. Has the FREE-MINDS forum have to comform to your agenda and premise?
What game are we playing here? ?
Which bit of the GAME as you call it you don't understand Damon? Do you get the concept of Personal Liberty with responsibility?
I specifically said that I respect and support FREEDOM and INDIVIDUALITY BUT with boundaries and respect for GOD's rules.
and I said
"That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture"
What I have said wrong here? Where is the contradiction?
Anyway, as I said earlier in this post, our respective stances are clear. You DO NOT believe the quran to be GOD's absolute decrees!! Truth, TAJ and myself DO!! It is at this stage that WE ALL should just say Lakum deenukum wa 'leeya deen. To you your path and to me my path. I am innocent of what you do and you are innocent of what I do.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...With due respects,
Regards,
-
If you say so. But I can't abdicate my reason and make SCRIPTURE my REASON.
That is quite clear Mr. Lote Tree, no need to become a broken record. I've already acknowledged your position on this.
There has not been any double standards.
Yeah there has and I am not the only one who's seen it.
I have stood up personal freedom. You have stood up to make SCRIPTURE your REASON.
First of all, I thought I invited you to check my past posts since I've been here at this forum. Your lame accusation that scripture is my one and only logic is not only unwarranted, but totally false. If the quran is clear on a certain issue, then I respect GOD and the quran enough to follow suit. You, on the other hand, don't see it that way.
Earlier in this thread, you called me a zealot and a quranic puritan. By your logic, and in all fairness, if you see me as a puritan and a zealot because of my adherence to the quran, then by the same token I can logically and rightfully see you as a hypocrite and a transgressor. It's only fair.
I don't understand this - why this paranoia? Is your faith so fickle?
Kid, you don't know me. What makes you think my faith is fickle? Where have I ever demonstrated a fickleness with my faith?
why should I have to come with a motive? What motive would that be - I really want to know from you?
For all we know, your mission could be to change peoples views of the quran. But the only people that this would work on are those who don't have the same conviction on the quran as I have dmonstrated to have myself. Who knows? People have come to FREE-MINDS in the past with all sorts of nonsense.
The impression that I get from you, like your repeated warnings (Yes, I have ignored those - but you don't have the right to warn anyone here - this is an open forum!) that we have to debate with scripture as our reason.
Well for the third time, your impression is dead wrong. Read other posts mad by me in all sorts of threads and you will learn that your impression is far off base. The impression that I am getting from reading your posts is one who doesn't care what scripture says at all and possibly there is something you wish to tell us. Am I right on this impression? Is there something you wish to come out in the open about?
. Has the FREE-MINDS forum have to comform to your agenda and premise?
Uumm....did I ever say that Lote Tree?
Which bit of the GAME as you call it you don't understand Damon?
The contradiction and double standard game that you are playing.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
No wise guy, I grasped it from the time you first uttered it. But it did just don on me that because of that position, you are not open to the notion that there are certain mandates that we are bound to as per quran, whereas the belief of Truth, Saladin, TAJ and myself in the quran have made us open to these mandates. It's that simple. Are you going to uphold what the quran says to uphold or are you not going to uphold what the quran says to uphold? Those who choose to uphold it do so because they believe in what is being said in it. Those who choose not to uphold it refuse to do so because of their disbelief in it. You don't believe in it (which I totally respect by the way) therefore you cannot see yourself bound by what is written within it. I believe this is also a part of the test of our life here in this realm. I believe that there is a day when we will be graded and be given either a passing grade or a failing grade. Hey, to each his own.
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...
I guess when you're a HS apologetic, it's hard to see the difference between morality and immorality.
With Due Respects,
One.
-
I will be more bold than others and say that I find LoteTree's entire position to be one of a hypocrite and at the root of it an unappreciative person (called an unbeliever by traditionalists).
At first he presented his primary doubt about the koran as a question, but it is clear that he holds this view firmly and has the habit of using weasel words and playing the game of double standards.
That is perfectly fine and commendable. But don't enforce this limit to other individuals. This is unfair and patronising because someone's understanding of God will be different from yours, and perhaps far superior than yours. An understanding of God that comes from love and compassion and not blind obedience to rules in a scripture"
What I have said wrong here? Where is the contradiction?
What have you said that's right? By whose standards?
Note well the weasel words LT uses - "blind obedience". The framing is done in such a way that what LoteTree is actually saying is that
"obedience = blindness"
and thereafter championing the concept of personal freedom being higher than obedience to God; as well as putting forward that personal determination of limits and responsibilities is superior to God given limits.
Hey man, this what I have been saying from the start of the thread! Scripture is A TRUTH. Did it take you that long to grasp this simple notion?
I guess when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON, it is hard to see this...At best you are someone who accepts koran partially.
By choosing to ignore or reject parts based on personal freedom and liberty; you are saying much more than it is "A TRUTH". You are using weasel words to hide something here.
There are no degrees of truth LoteTree. The world of the relativist is muddled in such confused morasses.
The brute fact that emerges from your statement is that you believe some of the koran to be FALSEHOOD. You make it of no account.
Thus your hypocrisy and your unbelief are exposed. I must deal with you in this way in order to take away the wishy washy facade you are presenting and make it brutally obvious that you are in 'kufr' (unappreciative disbelief).
This will be my final post on this thread.
PEACE.
-
Yeah there has and I am not the only one who's seen it.
You see double standard because you have not grasped what FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY means.
Earlier in this thread, you called me a zealot and a quranic puritan. By your logic, and in all fairness, if you see me as a puritan and a zealot because of my adherence to the quran, then by the same token I can logically and rightfully see you as a hypocrite and a transgressor. It's only fair.
Your writing indicated that you were a Puritan. Like your repeated warning to everyone and your constant badgering with verses from the quran like hadithist badgers one with endless hadith. It was arrogant of you to warn us. Your writing spoke of your puritanism. Now you telling me you are not?
You can call me transgressor. The one who breaks the rule. The one who lives outside of the rule. The one who strives to go beyond all the rules so that he may understand something of the infinity of the divinity that created him. Perhaps I am a transgressor in that sense. I am transgressor of man-made restriction on my personal liberty as an individual.
But hypocrite? I don't think so. I suggest you read all my posts as you suggested that I read your posts. In this thread I believe I have not been hypocritical. Is hypocrite one who does not accept quran as abosolute truth in your eyes? or one that stands for PERSONAL LIBERTY and FREEDOM?
Kid, you don't know me. What makes you think my faith is fickle? Where have I ever demonstrated a fickleness with my faith?
Baby, you don't know me either! Fickelness was a unfortunate use of word. What I meant to say doubtful about your faith. Your warnings and the paranoia about my motives - shows that you were threatened by my arguments.
For all we know, your mission could be to change peoples views of the quran.
And you feel really threatened by it? Do you trust your own reason?
If so, why do you think other people are unable to use their Reason?
This is the heart of the matter for you isn't it? Your fear that other people will not able to use their own reason to decide for themselves the validity of my arguments. This is the Islamic Ulema mentality. The Ulemas of the Islamic empire hated human reason so much that they officially closed the doors of itjihad (independent reasoning) around the 12th century and doing so they doomed the Islamic enterprise to an envitable death. I urge people to break out of this kind of thinking...But the only people that this would work on are those who don't have the same conviction on the quran as I have dmonstrated to have myself.
Quite a ego you have there. Why do you de-value other peoples intelligence apart from yours? This indeed hypocrisy and it is also patronising! Can you not see this?
Who knows? People have come to FREE-MINDS in the past with all sorts of nonsense.
And your the Guardian of FREE-MINDS from all these nonsense? How noble of you.
The impression that I am getting from reading your posts is one who doesn't care what scripture says at all and possibly there is something you wish to tell us.
Yes you are right. I don't take scripture as Absolute Truth. I have said often enough. It is A TRUTH. Scripture is not important to me. Only GOD is. Scripture has become your idol as Prophet was your idol in the past. How did get out of the Prophet Idolisation? Could it be that you USED YOUR REASON?
And there is something I would like to tell those who take scripture as Absolute Truth - READ other SOURCES, study all forms of spirituality and then you might realise that SCRIPTURE is not important in finding God and that scripture is A TRUTH.
No wise guy, I grasped it from the time you first uttered it. But it did just don on me that because of that position, you are not open to the notion that there are certain mandates that we are bound to as per quran, whereas the belief of Truth, Saladin, TAJ and myself in the quran have made us open to these mandates.
Again all I can say. THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM. You can't impose your mandates on us! By all means talk about your MANDATES but don't assume that everyone should bow down to your mandate. If it was a ONLY A ISLAMIC FORUM do you think I would bother coming here? I would rather watch paint dry. But this is an OPEN FORUM so don't keep your mandates hidden if you want to use it in your arguments...
I believe this is also a part of the test of our life here in this realm. I believe that there is a day when we will be graded and be given either a passing grade or a failing grade. Hey, to each his own.
I would fail you in this test. Because you did not use your God-given reason but rather you abdicated your reason to scripture -)
I guess when you're a HS apologetic, it's hard to see the difference between morality and immorality.
If you say standing up for FREEDOM, PERSONAL LIBERTY, TOLERANCE, LOVE, COMPASSION and UNDERSTANDING as being apologetic then as a INDIVIDUAL you are FREE to say that. Though I disagree with you...
Let me tell you this and I repeat again
Compassion is ETHOS of all religions.
Love and Compassion is what makes us human.Compassion is not easy Damon. Hate is easy. It is easy to hate. But it is harder to love and to be compassionate. May be one day you might come to understand the nature of compassion and perhaps then you can start to grow both spiritually and intellectually towards an understanding of the God that created you...
With due respects,
Regards,
-
I will be more bold than others and say that I find LoteTree's entire position to be one of a hypocrite and at the root of it an unappreciative person (called an unbeliever by traditionalists).
You are too kind Mr. Puritan! Appreciative of what? Scripture as Absolute Truth? I have made my position clear on this. So why go on about it?
At first he presented his primary doubt about the koran as a question..
All I ask you to go an read other sources. Study all forms of spiritualitly then you will realise that scripture is not IMPORTANT in understanding God and that Scripture is A TRUTH. Why don't you refute my argument on the A TRUTH?
Note well the weasel words LT uses - "blind obedience". The framing is done in such a way that what LoteTree is actually saying is that
"obedience = blindness"If you accept scripture as absolute truth as you do, you can't do anything else can you apart from follow it? I will say to you following rules of scripture will not make you grow intellectually or spiritually. When you start to think outside of the scripture then growth is possible...
and thereafter championing the concept of personal freedom being higher than obedience to God;
Personal FREEDOM to find God in your own way that is more important than obedience to scriptural rules...
as well as putting forward that personal determination of limits and responsibilities is superior to God given limits.
If you set any limits then how can you grow? It is when we break out of the boundaries that growth can take place...instead of being rats in a maze without question you start to realise that YOU are a rat in a maze and that you need to get out of it...
By choosing to ignore or reject parts based on personal freedom and liberty; you are saying much more than it is "A TRUTH". You are using weasel words to hide something here.
Again I ask you to go and read different sources and study spirituality...
There are no degrees of truth LoteTree. The world of the relativist is muddled in such confused morasses.
It is much much better than a Puritan view of black and white, right and wrong. The crucial difference between the two is that Puritan abdicates his reason, I will not. I will strive for my own understanding of God and religion...
The brute fact that emerges from your statement is that you believe some of the koran to be FALSEHOOD. You make it of no account.
No. All scripture is an interpretaiton of an wordless reality that we call God. To verify that there is a wordless reality, I suggest you try simple meditation techniques and then you will realise that there is a another level of perception that lies beyond the ordinary rational thought processes. A perception that can't be put into words...
Thus your hypocrisy and your unbelief are exposed. I must deal with you in this way in order to take away the wishy washy facade you are presenting and make it brutally obvious that you are in 'kufr' (unappreciative disbelief).
WOW I have been judged by the Truth! But I make no judgement on you Truth or are you also known as SERVANT?. Why do use different login ID? So you can play your game of hide and seek with the "truth"? But I accept you as individual to have whatever belief you like. But again I must stress that this is an OPEN FORUM where anyone can come and discuss matters of beliefs. Don't assume that because you accept scripture as absolute truth that this is the only way to God? This is blatant arrogance and hypocrisy. God is important not scripture. Scripture is not God. Don't idolise scripture. God is your goal....
With due respects.
Regards,