Quran and Pedophilia
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As Quran followers we have to care. But the person in question probably is here to troll us. At least that is the feeling I got when I saw his other posts. It seems to be one of those familiar cases in which the sectarian gets a great high from pushing their sectarian views of Quran just to make it look like the most unfair book in the universe, thinking we study like them and hence, we are hypocrites. Here is one previous user with the same kind words
https//2.bp.blogspot.com/-KY6O3j22HM0/Vq4UmSjujtI/AAAAAAAAAIM/OoODO8u3Phk/s1600/antimuslim_sectarian.pngfrom https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603540.msg293354#msg293354
You mean Sunnah-Hero?, there was a brother called MesMorial and he made a response to that guy
Sunnah-Hero says that according to 654, Muslims are allowed to marry babies
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603540.msg293354#msg293354
In that same post he asked what breaks wudu. Uncleanness breaks wudu (56). You are supposed to do wudu immediately before prayer.
So here is a discussion on his claim about 654
?And test the orphans until they attain the (age of) marriage; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.? (46)
The age of marriage is after puberty ends and when the person is of sound judgement. The word ?ashuddah? is derived from ?shaheed? conveying ?full strength?, and it is used in 6152, 1734, 225, 4067 and 4615 to describe a child who has developed to full strength (adulthood). Property must be given to the orphan when they are fully mature (e.g. 1734), and this is equated to marriage in 46. Thus the age of marriage is average 16.
The average completion of puberty for a girl is apparently 17, but one would not consider marrying earlier than say 16. The person should technically reach their adult height first, and people can tell when one is mentally ?mature? enough (they are past the emotional seesaw!). 46 obviously refers to attaining a specified age since the Arabic word ?attain? is used elsewhere to mean ?passing a certain amount of time?. Moreover, if the verse simply meant ?marriage?, we would have to ask why someone without maturity of intellect was married.
Certain people claim that 654 allows pre-pubescent marriage
?And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.? (654)
This actually refers to the period that should pass between when a couple divorce and when they officially confirm it. The waiting-period is there in case the woman is pregnant. Now, the woman who no longer menstruates should still wait three months. The woman who menstruates but has not done so in this particular period must wait for three months (menstruation is a monthly occurrence), anyway.
Menstruation occurs only if the woman is not pregnant.
According to 2226, a couple should not have sex for four months before divorce. The subsequent three month waiting period ensures they have not. 2228 instructs normally-menstruating women to wait three cycles, whilst 654 instructs those who believe they have reached menopause but for whom there is a reason to doubt (either that they cannot get pregnant or that they are not pregnant) and those who have ?not menstruated? to wait three months. Obviously, immediately after divorce any women will have not menstruated, and thus they will wait three months (equivalent to three cycles whether they begin to menstruate or not). 654 is a clarification that 2228 is not to be taken as ?three cycles?, but ultimately as ?three months?. Otherwise a woman who menstruated the first month but not the next (due to a non-pregnancy reason) would have to wait potentially longer than three months. 2228, in describing the default position for women, confirms that all married women are those who have courses (i.e. menstruate). This establishes that pre-pubescent marriage did not occur and that it was never available as an Islamic option. 3349 echoes what 2228 actually says (i.e. that the purpose of waiting is to see if one is pregnant). 654 is clarification for women who have departed from the default position of all newly-married women (i.e. they have ceased menstruating either due to pregnancy or illness). Such women can wait months instead of cycles/periods.
A critic may claim that 43 mandates marriage with underage orphans, but it (that interpretation) would refer only to those specific circumstances (just as polygamy is only legal in those specific circumstances).
The more obvious response is that these disadvantaged orphans (having reached the age of full-strength such that they can receive their property (1734)) are actually old enough to be married (hence 46). Orphans were not defined by age. This point is solidified in 4127 where the female orphans (or again the orphans ?of the women one wishes to marry?) are distinguished from the weaker children. The female orphans of marriageable age must receive their property, and the children must have their property spent only out of necessity (in a good way (1734)).
A desperate critic will then say that 46 only applies to males, in which case only male children need to be good to their parents (4615). It also means that only female orphans receive their property in 42, and this is logically unacceptable. The same word for ?orphans? is used in the verses 42, 43 and 46 such that there is no reason to differentiate the male from the female.
It is unclear whether the Qur?an permitted existing pre-pubescent marriages to continue, and this may be included in 654. Either way, they have been cancelled.
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Timeout ignore
Wait is going on?
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Whilst analysis of 654 is helpful, in my view it doesn't come close to the brilliant Quranic argument found here (note the part in bold)
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htmI later found out Parwez used the same argument.
Plus also see this
http//samvak.tripod.com/pedophilia.html
http//www.protectpakids.org/full-stop-children-cannot-consent-to-sex-with-an-adult-ever/
https//www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/27/child-sexual-abuse-consensual-victim-behaviour
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHZDEUVt9OI
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There is people who defend pedophilia like Flea guy and honestly it makes mad.
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Sister Reel, did you encounter defenders of pedophilia? I think you mentioned a organization that openly advocates pedophilia.
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Many western critics keep tying pedophilia in Saudi Arabia to Islam even though Qur'an does NOT advocate it, in U.S.A there is a group called N.A.M.B.L.A and they openly advocate pedophilia in the Western world who wants to lower age of conscent in U.S. It really disgusts me! In fact the word peadophilia which means in Greek child love (, , pa?s, paid?s-child, ,philia-love) which is no love involved AT ALL!
See these
http//samvak.tripod.com/pedophilia.html
http//www.protectpakids.org/full-stop-children-cannot-consent-to-sex-with-an-adult-ever/
https//www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/27/child-sexual-abuse-consensual-victim-behaviour
https//everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/
https//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/#!po=1.30435
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHZDEUVt9OI
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Here is a updated list
http//samvak.tripod.com/pedophilia.html
http//www.protectpakids.org/full-stop-children-cannot-consent-to-sex-with-an-adult-ever/
https//www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/27/child-sexual-abuse-consensual-victim-behaviour
https//everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/
https//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/#!po=1.30435
http//www.hiddenmysteries.org/health/effects/pedophilia.html
https//www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/somatic-psychology/201303/trauma-childhood-sexual-abuse
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHZDEUVt9OI
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Here is update #3
http//samvak.tripod.com/pedophilia.html
http//www.protectpakids.org/full-stop-children-cannot-consent-to-sex-with-an-adult-ever/
https//www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/sep/27/child-sexual-abuse-consensual-victim-behaviour
https//everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/adults-with-minors-not-okay/
https//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/#!po=1.30435
http//www.hiddenmysteries.org/health/effects/pedophilia.html#4
https//www.psychologytoday.com/blog/somatic-psychology/201303/trauma-childhood-sexual-abuse
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHZDEUVt9OI
https//books.google.se/books?id=A3Gk0M-Y-rMC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=when+is+the+brain+mature+enough+for+sex&source=bl&ots=qDa6taqtuC&sig=CQmcyIwU166IWv8BbijbvVQvqK8&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=when%20is%20the%20brain%20mature%20enough%20for%20sex&f=false
http//keepkidssafe.org/6-ways-molestation-affects-adult-survivors/
https//www.counseling.org/docs/disaster-and-trauma_sexual-abuse/long-term-effects-of-childhood-sexual-abuse.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Also see this
2431
Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudnamin absarihinna wayahfathnafuroojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa mathahara minha walyadribnabikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeenazeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinnaaw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna awabna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw baneeikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinnaaw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeenaghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifliallatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawratialnnisa-i wala yadribnabi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinnawatooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuhaalmu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, orthe child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.2432
Waankihoo al-ayamaminkum waalssaliheena min AAibadikumwa-ima-ikum in yakoonoo fuqaraa yughnihimu Allahumin fadlihi waAllahu wasiAAun AAaleemun
And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
WalyastaAAfifi allatheena layajidoona nikahan hatta yughniyahumu Allahumin fadlihi waallatheena yabtaghoona alkitabamimma malakat aymanukum fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran waatoohum min mali Allahiallathee atakum wala tukrihoo fatayatikumAAala albigha-i in aradna tahassunanlitabtaghoo AAarada alhayati alddunyawaman yukrihhunna fa-inna Allaha min baAAdi ikrahihinnaghafoorun raheemun
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful. -
Whilst analysis of 654 is helpful, in my view it doesn't come close to the brilliant Quranic argument found here (note the part in bold)
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htmI later found out Parwez used the same argument.
Salam/Peace brother Wakas. I have shown your article with other ones involving faulty translation of 654 and there is a person in Quraniyoon reddit said this
furqaan1
The answer to objection against 654 is very simple. The verse uses the word nisaikum which means your women, not children. The word used for child in the quran is tifl (225, 2431, 2459, 4067). In fact 2459 says "when your children reach puberty", so prepubescent = child/tifl per the Quranic usage. Additionally, 2431 mentions both tifl and nisa as separate categories so nisa cannot include tifl. Therefore, 654 cannot possibly be referring to prepubescent. I am surprised that none of the above mentioned links gives this answer. -
Peace -- situation with 12 year old girls in modern countries is different topic nothing to do with offering underage girls into marriage and there are many communities of poor people in villages (I came from one in my youth) and if someone came asking for a girl in my family that was of marriageable age would kindly thank them and leave it up to the girl.
On the other-hand, if someone came asking for an underage girl in my family would happily break his ribs and bust his head along with his entourage/family for suggesting it.
Perhaps study the words being used
411 instructs you the god in offspring yours lildhakari/to the male (any age) similitude apportion al-unthayayni/the two (any age) so if are (f/p) nisan/womenfolk (i.e. daughters any age) over ith'natayni/two so for them third dual (1/3 x 2 = 2/3) what left
2282 ? so if not being dual rajulayni/menfolk two (adult) so man wa-im'ra-atni/and women two (adult)
335 when said (f) im'ra-atu/woman (adult) imran
340 ? and surely has reached me the oldness wa-im'ra-at/and woman mine (adult) barren ?
783 ? im'ra-atahu/woman his ?
1171 wa-im'ra-atuhu/and woman his ?
1181 ? im'ra-ataka/woman your ?
1221 and said the one of purchased him from mi'ra li-im'ra-atihi/to woman his1230 and said nis'watun (women adult (f/p) the community) in the town im'ra-atu/woman the mighty sought to seduce she young man hers about soul his/himself hence infatuated her love surely we surely we see her in misguidance clear
1250 ? l-nis'wati/the women (f/p) ?
1251 ? said (f) im'ra-atu/woman ?
1560 ? im'ra-atahu/woman his
195 ? and be she im'ra-at/woman mine barren of
198 ? and be she im'ra-at/woman mine barren of
2757 ? amrat-hu/woman his
289 and said she im'ra-atu/woman firaun ?
2823 ? im'ra-atayni/women two
2932 ? im'ra-atahu/woman his
2933 ? im'ra-ataka/woman your
5129 ? im'ra-atuhu/woman his
6610 ? im'ra-ata/woman noah wa-im'ra-ata/and woman lot
6611 ? im'ra-ata/woman firaun
1114 wa-im'ra-atuhu/and woman hisAgain, study the words being used
43 ? so sponsor marriage ye of
425 ? so sponsor marry ye them by permission family theirs
2432 and sponsor marriage ye of?
2827 said surely I want that sponsor marriage you ?2235 ? the marriage ?
2237 ? the marriage ?No it clearly states
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when attained they of the marriage so if perceive you from them right way of/rational so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs...
Hence according to you, it?s OK to give in marriage 6 or 9 year old little girls or even a 2 year old baby without any consent who have not even started menstruating yet or attained maturity/rational to a pedophile who offers money. nope
Magnificent words brother Noon. I would do the same to that child rapist bust their face open & break their ribs if they want to oppress or rape my children.
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peace,
Yes, this has been mentioned before on this forum. Also here
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/polygamy-islam-4-wives.htm
Further, the Arabic word used here is "nisa" and means "women" not girls.
I will likely add the point into the article however. Thanks.
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I will likely add the point into the article however. Thanks.
I wonder who said that. Would like to shake that person hands. Edit Oh it was you brother Wakas. Let me shake you hands
Wakas ------> https//openclipart.org/download/252776/ShakingHands.svg <------ The Sardar
By the way, every time when there is sexual contact mentioned. Only women is mention. Never seen any sexual contact with women. Nada, Zilch and Zero.
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peace,
I will likely add the point into the article however. Thanks.peace wakas,
indeed its worthy to ponder on that point.
people usually apply in their lives marrying four, three or two (girls)instead of women so if we go through that point this will gona give us different picture of the story and on top of that the context of the verse is to support women (during a specific time of war in past) who were not at the status/condition of girls.
we usually say woman to a person who already got kids something like that.
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By the way, every time when there is sexual contact mentioned. Only women is mention. Never seen any sexual contact with women.
Wait let me fix that
By the way, every time when there is sexual contact mentioned. Only women is mention. Never seen any mention of sexual contact with children.
Nada, Zilch and Zero. -
Wait let me fix that
By the way, every time when there is sexual contact mentioned. Only women is mention. Never seen any mention of sexual contact with children.
Nada, Zilch and Zero.its very easy to fix lol
children dnt suppose to do sex as they dnt need sex or sexual urge their sexual organs/functions are still developing
and when it developed they are no more kids they are in a catagory of adult once u get adult its fine for you to sex usually people started from masturbution lol
only adult can fancy it and they do it thats why its illogical to think on that angle.
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Bumping back this thread.
Is there any Quran verse (or Hadith) that actually states that this act is haram?
Of all sex-related stuff, this should actually be considered haram.
https//misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=40
Note the part in bold underlined.
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Bumping back this thread.
Is there any Quran verse (or Hadith) that actually states that this act is haram?
Of all sex-related stuff, this should actually be considered haram.
The term "pedophile" specifically refers to adults who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children, so as far as am aware there is no specific verse in the Quran or authentic hadith that explicitly addresses pedophilia by name. However there are many indirect examples which am sure folks have already shared with you on this thread.
Islamic scholars have unanimously condemned pedophilia and any form of child exploitation as it goes against the principles of Islam. They have derived their condemnation from various verses and hadiths that emphasize the protection of vulnerable individuals, the importance of consent, and the responsibility of adults to safeguard children.
Matthew 186 (New Testament) "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Psalm 823-4 (Old Testament) "Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
Rigveda 10.85.44 "Let not a man approach a maiden who is still unfit for sexual relations (i.e., underage) or one who is guarded by relatives, lest he incur sin."
Manusmriti 3.51 "The teacher who approaches the daughter of his pupil before her marriage shall go to hell, as also he who corrupts female slaves and serves the wives of others."
Mahabharata, Anushasana Parva 185.7 "One should not indulge in sexual acts with children, with the wives of friends, or with the sisters of friends, for that is known as the vilest of sexual acts."
