Dying in a state of kufr and shirk
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First, I'd appreciate it if anyone has a good article about shirk/kufr and what they entail.
I decided to make this thread after receiving some illuminating posts in another thread I made http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5249&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
In that thread, claurianta brought up a point about one dying in a state of shirk doesn't necessarily mean going to Hell.
I think this is a very important issue. Is shirk different from other sins (e.g. hoarding money) only by degree or is it categorically different? What about kufr?
If one dies in a state of shirk, does one automatically go to Hell according to the Qur'an, or is it merely examined as one of any number of sins. What about a state of kufr?
I always interpreted the Qur'an to say that if one dies in state of shirk, one was going to Hell. Now I'm not so sure.
The main verse I always thought of was
448 "GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense."
Peace.
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First, I'd appreciate it if anyone has a good article about shirk/kufr and what they entail.
Peace
I wil try to put one together for you
I decided to make this thread after receiving some illuminating posts in another thread I made http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5249&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
In that thread, claurianta brought up a point about one dying in a state of shirk doesn't necessarily mean going to Hell.
this is NOT true, if anyone dies in shirk state, then Game Over, thrown in hell for eternity and Allah told us it will not be forgiven but He also told us that they will last in Hell as long as He desires, and if He wants to remove them from Hell, He can do it with ease, but He said the same about the paradise dwellers as well, which an indication for His supreme power and control
I think this is a very important issue. Is shirk different from other sins (e.g. hoarding money) only by degree or is it categorically different? What about kufr?
of course it is damn important for everyone, yes shirk is different to other sins, in fact it is the mother of all sins and Allah told us, it can't be forgiven, it is on the same level as Kufr though
If one dies in a state of shirk, does one automatically go to Hell according to the Qur'an, or is it merely examined as one of any number of sins. What about a state of kufr?
100% must go to Hell according to the Quran, at least for a very long period according to the Quran, the good deeds will only come into account if its doers is not Kafir or Mushrik
I see Shirk different to Kufr but both are the mothers of all sins and can't be forgiven according to the Quran, please wait for my long comment that will shade some light on this important issue
I always interpreted the Qur'an to say that if one dies in state of shirk, one was going to Hell. Now I'm not so sure.
be 100% assured bro, it will happen exactly as Allah told us in the Quran, Allah does not change His words bro and all His promises must be fulfilled according to the Quran
The main verse I always thought of was
448 "GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense."
Peace.
and there are many more actually, please wait for my long comment but it will take me a bit of time to put together, in the above verse you posted it clearly says that shirk will not be forgiven, as well the verse clealy inclines that shirk is the mother of all sins
peace be with you
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Thanks Ahmed.
I await your next post.
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Salam and Peace!
Dying in a state of shirk and kufr,--------he is lost!
Only such a person will be looking for Shafa'ut from the pious people.-----But in vain!!!
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I know this is an old thread but thought why create a new one.
I guess the living fear is to die in a state of shirk and or kufr.
There?s always conversations about who is right and who isn?t and how right we are and how wrong they are. e.g Sunnis vs other Sunnis, Sunnis vs Quranists, Sunnis vs Shias, Muslims vs Christians etc, etc. Though I think that?s a very simplistic approach as we all commit wrong in one way or another. So how do we know we?re free from shirk?
Besides blatant associations with God, worshiping of multiple deities what do you understand shirk to be?
I?ve heard from traditional sunni?s that following your own desires is a form of shirk though I?ve not read any quranic reference to this?
Interestingly there is a verse about people believing in God but only while they do shirk 12106. So the assumption of being a believer or monotheist doesn?t mean we?re free from it.
I wanted to learn more about shirk but didn?t really find much articles on it. If anyone has any links or thoughts please feel free to share.
To the original post it seems that one who does commit shirk is forbidden to go to jannah and their abode is fire and are the worst of all people (572, 986)
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I read something as to hen you are sure you believe in God, and only Him, hen you do not fear anything else.
Many things in the way to God, I think, are aims that you get nearer and nearer hopefully, but not necessarily that you are there. You get nearer but reaching the end that ould be to return to God completely.
A long way.
Salaam -
Peace SarahY.
Total loyalty to GOD Alone is hard .
Basically it is easier to say we believe with our lips, our actions are something else.How many believe in GOD but do not believe GOD. Look at all the denominations, they say they reverence GOD but believe other entities can help them, save them, intercede on their behalf...
GOD says to us that He is our provider, our protector, our only Lord... But we seek other than GOD for our provision, health, protection...
Two forces in action (Body/illusion v spirit/reality), we are caught up in the middle in a tug of war.
To me, shirk is believing anything other than GOD can benefit you or harm you, once you are aware of GOD s power and traits.
If we believe in GOD through His message ,then we must believe what GOD is saying to us and trust in Him Alone for our salvation. No idols. Total loyalty to GOD Alone.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I guess the living fear is to die in a state of shirk and or kufr.
The living fear is to die itself.
Fear of losing everything, fear of uncertainty.Ruler uses those fear to benefits him / her.
There?s always conversations about who is right and who isn?t and how right we are and how wrong they are. e.g Sunnis vs other Sunnis, Sunnis vs Quranists, Sunnis vs Shias, Muslims vs Christians etc, etc. Though I think that?s a very simplistic approach as we all commit wrong in one way or another. So how do we know we?re free from shirk?
By conquering your own fear.. of death.
By accepting death.. when the time comes.
And truly believe that you were, are and always will be in good hands.
By then you shall no longer have any fear.Besides blatant associations with God, worshiping of multiple deities what do you understand shirk to be?
This is ridiculous, if a soul was put within a culture of X.
99% probability he/she will follow the culture of X.Put the soul within the context of 1930s Germany and 99% probability he/she will support the Nazi and hate the lesser races (Jews and others).
Put the soul within the context of 2000 BC Akkadian and 99% probability he/she will worship Marduk, Bel, Pazuzu, and any deities invented by Abraham's father and support or perform human sacrifice.
Put the soul within the context of 500 AD Arabs and 99% probability he/she will worship Manaf, Uzza, Allat and support or perform the black cube ritual dedicated to Hubal.
Put the soul within the context of 0 AD Judea and 99% probability he/she will worship YHVH and support the death penalty to Jesus.And the true God know this very well too, if the true God really wanted to blame anyone, He should blame Himself for putting the soul within the cultural context of X.
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Peace Jafar.
you say, quote
And the true God know this very well too, if the true God really wanted to blame anyone, He should blame Himself for putting the soul within the cultural context of XI say If the GOD is to blame for putting people in a certain time and culture, then what is the use of choices and decisions that people take? Or are you saying the GOD is forcing you to take the choices and make the decisions in your life? Or may be the GOD is to blame for all that He creates?
Easy way to get out of accountability!!! The irony is you would not even be here to blame anyone or question anything if the GOD has not created you at all.
But we can all talk. Typical of us to argue with and blame our creator, that is how we thank Him for His favours!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace SarahY
Some verses about shirk that I meant to quote with my earlier post
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Among the people there is the one who worships/serves God conditionally. If things go his way, he is content. But if some adversity befalls him, he makes an about-face. Thus, he loses both this life and the Hereafter. Such is the real loss.2212
He idolizes beside God what possesses no power to harm him or benefit him; such is the real straying.2213
He idolizes what is more apt to harm him than benefit him. What a miserable lord! What a miserable companion!2214
God admits those who believe and lead a righteous life into gardens with flowing streams. Everything is in accordance with God's will.2215
If anyone thinks that God cannot support him in this life and in the Hereafter, let him turn completely to (his Creator in) heaven, and sever (his dependence on anyone else). He will then see that this plan eliminates anything that bothers him.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Unintended shirk is not the same as intended/malicious/criminal shirk.
Shirk setup to mislead, misguide, or confuse is the antithesis of guidance.
After the Quran was revealed those whose insisted that Allah had partners
are declared to be intentionally or arrogantly astray!Then do not set up rivals unto Allah while you know.
And they set up rivals to Allah, to mislead from
His path! Say ?Enjoy But certainly, your destination is the Fire!?Pay attention to this ayat
Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgives
anything else, to whom He pleases; to set up partners with Allah is to
fabricate a great sin.peace
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Salaam
The word "shirk" comes from root which has the meanings of "to attach" "to mix".
In Quranic terms it is attaching/mixing something with Allah. The commands given by Allah in Quran are for our welfare. He does not need anything for Himself.
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SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And Moses said, "If you should disbelieve, you and whoever is on the earth entirely - indeed, Allah is Free of need and Praiseworthy."If someone is worshiping an idol what it can do to Allah. Does He care what humans worship? He is not a jealous God. He gave us guidance to sail through this life and get our nufus ready for next life. If we ignore His guidance and follow other than Allah, it damages us and hinder the (zaka) growth of our nufus. Worship is for deities not for Allah.
The concept of forgiveness is strange as well. The word "maghfira" means protection. So if we follow other than Allah's guidance we do not get protection as per His laws.
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(Surely Allah does not give protection, if you associate with Him (follow other than Allah's guidance) and whoever associate with Allah he had fabricated a great ithm. Do you not see those who give growth to their nufus, nay Allah gives growth as per His law and they are not done any injustice.
So shirk is to follow guidance of other than Allah.
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Greetings all,
Just some questions...
What is Allah?
How do you believe in Allah?
Experience, cultural blind faith or philosophical assumption?
I cannot see any differences between so called believers and non-believers except for rituals and claims of faith. No differences in
attitude or behavior.How do you follow the guidance of Allah?
What is this guidance? Books? What about all interpretations which in turn end up pretty much subjective?
Is there some other guidance?How do you set up partners with Allah?
Can Allah even have partners? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?What does 'partner' mean anyway?
Aren't we all agents of the Creator in various odd ways?When we get a grip on this, perhaps we can approach what shirk might mean... -\ o ignore ;D
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Peace Zulf.
Nice to hear from you.
This is me, from my perspectiveWhat is Allah? The Creator of what we see/
How do you believe in Allah/ By what I see and hear around me(people, animals, plants...) .By my thinking /reasoning /searching and instinct.How do you follow the guidance? From Qoran so far(I came across Qoran and was curious about it!). At least it appears to claim it is a message from the Creator and has guidance in it. My instinct is also telling me ,this message makes sense(most of what I understand from it at least).
How do you set up partners with Allah? Since starting to be aware/think, I was always following something or somebody. My parents, my leaders, my peers my own desires. Now I realise(being aware of the message from Allah-Qoran-) I should only follow GOD s path-Sirat Al Mustaqueem- i.e I was setting up partners with Allah.
What does partner mean anyway? Another authority/source /way/system besides or alongside GOD s way/system as described in His message-Sirat Al Mustaqueem-.
Perhaps a lot of people are following GOD s path by instinct/without coming across a message, it is possible. I am now very much aware that I was not. So I am trying to change my ways/behaviour/stand with myself and others.
I also realise that following the right path -Sirat Al Mustaqueem- is for my own good/benefit. GOD has no need of anything from me.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Zulf.
Nice to hear from you.
This is me, from my perspectiveWhat is Allah? The Creator of what we see/
How do you believe in Allah/ By what I see and hear around me(people, animals, plants...) .By my thinking /reasoning /searching and instinct.How do you follow the guidance? From Qoran so far(I came across Qoran and was curious about it!). At least it appears to claim it is a message from the Creator and has guidance in it. My instinct is also telling me ,this message makes sense(most of what I understand from it at least).
How do you set up partners with Allah? Since starting to be aware/think, I was always following something or somebody. My parents, my leaders, my peers my own desires. Now I realise(being aware of the message from Allah-Qoran-) I should only follow GOD s path-Sirat Al Mustaqueem- i.e I was setting up partners with Allah.
What does partner mean anyway? Another authority/source /way/system besides or alongside GOD s way/system as described in His message-Sirat Al Mustaqueem-.
Perhaps a lot of people are following GOD s path by instinct/without coming across a message, it is possible. I am now very much aware that I was not. So I am trying to change my ways/behaviour/stand with myself and others.
I also realise that following the right path -Sirat Al Mustaqueem- is for my own good/benefit. GOD has no need of anything from me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.God bless you GL. You saved me a lot of typing )
Regrads
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blessing of God upon all brothers/sisters
the category of shirk and kuffar are really difficult to understand when different societies have different types of shirk so first most question is what shirk and kuffar is ?
wrong doing and sins always leave guilty feelings and its true and also in every socitey wrong doing never encouraged
like rob,steal,rape,murder etc ..but about this wrongdoing or sin (SHIRK) nobody whoever is doing it, he/she is not even feeling anything even the LAW didnt really bother about this wrongdoing/sin so actually as far i can see we are understanding this term differently we need to find out what is shirk in reality ?
logically if shirk is what we consider as shirk then something is tricky becoz on one hand book of God claims every nation is there due to a reason, and a survery tells us 98 % people adopted a same faith what they get birth in so while asking from them they are satisfied in their heart that they are not doing shirk(griss wrongdoing) but from the lens of other people they are in clear error? same goes with every label of religion.
why there is such a satisfaction on gross sin of all faiths ?
a close example of kaffir is firoon in literal sense who knew the truth but cant accept it due to ego.
we need to see what shirk is in actual.
Greetings all,
Just some questions...
peace zulf hope u allright, i ll try to answer some of ur questions
What is Allah?
How do you believe in Allah?Allah/God is a master source of every material and immaterial thing/being.
because somebody must desinged all this game/play what we can feel/see.
How do you follow the guidance of Allah?
What is this guidance? Books? What about all interpretations which in turn end up pretty much subjective?
Is there some other guidance?Guidance is just a guidance
when human/gps/map/mind/book/interpretation will guide you to the path its involved risks in it so its a duty of passenger to continue the travel at his/her own responsibility. he has to make sure he is on the right path , and when he knows he is heading towards right path he will keep calm and sleepy but still risks of accidents are ahead ..How do you set up partners with Allah?
Can Allah even have partners? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?What does 'partner' mean anyway?
Aren't we all agents of the Creator in various odd ways?partner means equal in terms of any power of finance/crime/relationship in worldy terms.
you are true there is not any partner of God in whole system a true logical God is one.
thats why people unrightfully set things/beings equal to God and it was a gross mistake,using word partners is not correct for God. God is far above what we can associate with him
agents are not equal to partners .. becoz partners are the creator of firm/business where agents work..
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I wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?
I've never seen any cases where people have an all-mighty God, and then they keep another entity beside God who is of equal powers. Not even Hinduism seems to be doing this.
Perhaps in cases where some group might argue that the creator is not all-mighty and then have other powers filling those gaps... but are there any examples of that in the world?All the best
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I think, When one says, my God is not yours then its Shirk, thats the basic start of splitting Him, like some having the idea that God blesses him and his clan more than other's, getting special privileges from Him. This is true in many religions like mainstream Islam, Jews, high class Hindu society thinking they are only born noble sacred and blessed etc.. and others not so.
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I wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?
I've never seen any cases where people have an all-mighty God, and then they keep another entity beside God who is of equal powers. Not even Hinduism seems to be doing this.
Perhaps in cases where some group might argue that the creator is not all-mighty and then have other powers filling those gaps... but are there any examples of that in the world?All the best
Glad to see you back, Zulf, hopefully you are staying with us some time.
I think that it is not a matter of showing any external appearance or imagerie of more than one "god", but rather our inner image.
Let us say e are worried out a dear person to us, that she may be in danger, that murderers or whatever may catch her...
Mentally where does a common sense worry and rationalisation of dangers end and where does the fear of the unknown start. Does not God also rule in those things we do not know?Of course we should show caution in everything in life, but no matter how much precaution we show, things still happen, there creeps the fear of other than God...
For our own sake, once we behave with foresight and caution we should be able not to worry, but in fact we do worry...
That is just one way where our asociating to God may creep into our hearts and minds. We associat emurderers to God, car accidents, diseases...
Salaam
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Saying GOD has got power and believing GOD is the only power are two different things.
our attitude towards our creator and our deep intention/thoughts/convictions about "who is our god/priority?" is the issue.
Some are rendering lip service to GOD and have "different gods/priorities". Other things/ways/systems/people that they hold dear to them and ignore GOD s system.
There are many examples Zulf
1- Our wealth and properties .
2- Our tradition /race/status.
3-Our ego/arrogance.
4- Our desires and loyalties to others.
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All these can take us away from being fair/just and good to ourselves and others. i.e lead us away from sirat Al Mustaqueem.
They are the partners that one can take as gods beside GOD Alone.
I am not saying we cannot have these in moderation and still keep on the straight path, but we need to stay " conscious" and always aware that "loyalty to GOD s path" is the utmost priority.
My take.
GOD bless.
Peace.