TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.
-
In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is also spelled IBRHM
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=428
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/127/handschrift/428/flip/1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/134/handschrift/428/flip/1
note this manuscript is not dated.
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
The first manuscript you posted is from 662-765https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=878
The second manuscript you posted is from 700-1000The manuscript that i posted is from 700-850
Do you know how statistical probability dating works?
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
95.4% statistical probability dated between 662-765 CEMA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165Sana Manuscripts
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837i.e. probability older than CE
635.5 56.20%
640.5
645.5 75.10%
650.5
655.5
660.5 95.50%
665.5
670.5
675.5 99.20%Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspxTakes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.
Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.
Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.
peace!
-
Do you know how statistical probability dating works?
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
95.4% statistical probability dated between 662-765 CEMA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165Sana Manuscripts
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837i.e. probability older than CE
635.5 56.20%
640.5
645.5 75.10%
650.5
655.5
660.5 95.50%
665.5
670.5
675.5 99.20%Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspxTakes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.
Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.
Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.
peace!
DO YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY READ THE QURAN OR JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH ONLINE FOR EVERYTHING WHEN YOUVE GOT THE BOOK IN YOUR OWN HOME AND AT THE MOSQUE. MAYBE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO REALISE SINCE ARABIC IS MY NATIVE LANGUAGE. BUT ANYBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE QURAN WORD FOR WORD WILL NOTICE DIFFERENCES. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGES OF THE QURAN. ITS NOT A COINSIDENCE THAT ONLY IN CHAPTER 2 SPECIFICALLY THERE IS NO 'Y'. IF THERE WAS ANY PROOF OF CHANGES THEN I WOULD EXPECT HOW IBRAHEEM AND ABRAHM IS SPELLED TO BE IN AT LEAST 1 AYA TOGETHER IN ANY OF THE MENTIONED SURAH. THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE THIS UMMAHS QURAN WHILE THE SCRIPTURE SITS HOME UNREAD.
-
Salaam,
MA VI 165 Quran 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165No chapter 2 in this manuscript, only from chapter 17 verse 37 to chapter 36 verse 57
Sana Manuscripts
http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837i.e. probability older than CE
635.5 56.20%
640.5
645.5 75.10%
650.5
655.5
660.5 95.50%
665.5
670.5
675.5 99.20%Link does not work.
Birmingham Quran 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspxLink does not work, but i know this manuscript; no chapter 2 in this manuscript.
Takes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.
Not all manuscripts are published online.
Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.
Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.
peace!
It doesn't make sense to change the spelling only in chapter 2 (15 occurrences ) and not in the rest of the Quran ( 54 occurrences ).
-
IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.
Peace tulipred-muslima,
What is your point?
handshake
-
Surah AL-BAQARAH AYAT, 124,125,126,127,130,132,133,135,136,140,258,260 all as (ABRAHM)
Surah AL-IMRAN AYAT, 65,68,84,95,97 all as (IBRAHEEM)
surah AL-NISA AYAT, 54,125,163 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-ANAM AYAT, 74,75,83,161 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL TAWBA AYAT, 70, 114 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah HUD AYAT, 75,76 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah YUSUF AYAT, 6,38, all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah IBRAHEEM AYAT, 35 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-HIJR AYAT, 51 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-NAHL 123, all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah MARYAM AYAT, 41,46 58 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-ANBIYA AYAT, 51,60,62,69 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-HAJJ AYAT, 43, 78 all as (IBRAHEEM)
surah AL-ASHUARA AYAT, 69 all as (IBRAHEEM)
surah AL-ANKABUT AYAT 16,31, all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-AHZAB AYA, 7 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-SAFFAT AYAT, 83,104,109 all as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-SAD AYA, 45 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah ASHURA AYA, 13 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AZ-ZUKHRUF AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah ADH-DHARIYAT AYA, 24 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AN-NAJM AYA, 37 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-HADID AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-MUMTAHANA AYA, 4 as (IBRAHEEM)
Surah AL-ALA AYA, 19 as (IBRAHEEM)
Checked 2.124, 125
in some copies it is ibraahyim
in some others it says ibraahimBur in no copy I have seen abrahm
Salaam
-
Checked 2.124, 125
in some copies it is ibraahyim
in some others it says ibraahimBur in no copy I have seen abrahm
Salaam
Salaam huruf
Here is copy paste from quranexplorer.com
In 2124-140 it appears 10 times as . There is a "Y" on top of the word which shows there used to be a "Y" and for some unknown reasons to me they stopped using "Y" in the word in Sura Baqra but continued in other suras. Why they chose to do that is a mystery to me.
( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( ( (
Now rest of places it is with a "Y"
333 -
Thank you, I mayhave missed that. Already everything seems too small when I look, if I did not expect to see that sweet little fantom Y no onder I mssed it. I'll check. Thank you. This is a bit like amputation, they say, that you still feel the member you lost even if it is not there.
Salaam
-
It doesn't make sense to change the spelling only in chapter 2 (15 occurrences ) and not in the rest of the Quran ( 54 occurrences ).
They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?
Sana manuscript 2nd century!
https//s22.postimg.cc/50fx9kb4x/Sana_ch2v120-125-2.jpg
DO YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY READ THE QURAN OR JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH ONLINE FOR EVERYTHING WHEN YOUVE GOT THE BOOK IN YOUR OWN HOME AND AT THE MOSQUE. MAYBE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO REALISE SINCE ARABIC IS MY NATIVE LANGUAGE. BUT ANYBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE QURAN WORD FOR WORD WILL NOTICE DIFFERENCES. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGES OF THE QURAN. ITS NOT A COINSIDENCE THAT ONLY IN CHAPTER 2 SPECIFICALLY THERE IS NO 'Y'. IF THERE WAS ANY PROOF OF CHANGES THEN I WOULD EXPECT HOW IBRAHEEM AND ABRAHM IS SPELLED TO BE IN AT LEAST 1 AYA TOGETHER IN ANY OF THE MENTIONED SURAH. THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE THIS UMMAHS QURAN WHILE THE SCRIPTURE SITS HOME UNREAD.
3119 and be moderate in walk/pace your and lower from voice yours indeed harshest the voices surely voice the donkeys (i.e. ranting loud mindlessly/braying)
peace!
-
they stopped using "Y" in the word in Sura Baqra but continued in other suras. Why they chose to do that is a mystery to me.
peace novice,
human made things always bring mysteries as a package..
look what noon trying to say
blessing in the name of God
-
They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?
Sana manuscript 2nd century!
https//s22.postimg.cc/50fx9kb4x/Sana_ch2v120-125-2.jpg
3119 and be moderate in walk/pace your and lower from voice yours indeed harshest the voices surely voice the donkeys (i.e. ranting loud mindlessly/braying)
peace!
Thanks brother Noon for confirming that "Y" was used in the oldest mushaf. No confusion there. They are still writing 'Y' on top of "Ibrahm. Mystery is why they changed spelling only in Sura Baqra.
-
I think we have to remember that in aciente times there as no printing press, so all copies ere done by hand. If someone made a mistake somwhere along the copy, and if the material was expensive and realised she or he missed the "Y", rather thna throw away the whole copy, to insert the Y somehow was a solution. May be someone was in a hurry to have the copy...
Many manuscripts, even legal, were so corrected in older times and provided they observed all the means of asserting the authenticity were valid.
Of course, by now, I think that there being no doubt as to the real content e could in printing, have reverted to the Y in its proper place.
Salaam
-
I think we have to remember that in aciente times there as no printing press, so all copies ere done by hand. If someone made a mistake somwhere along the copy, and if the material was expensive and realised she or he missed the "Y", rather thna throw away the whole copy, to insert the Y somehow was a solution. May be someone was in a hurry to have the copy...
Many manuscripts, even legal, were so corrected in older times and provided they observed all the means of asserting the authenticity were valid.
Of course, by now, I think that there being no doubt as to the real content e could in printing, have reverted to the Y in its proper place.
Salaam
I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".
-
I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".
In itself, I think, bearing in mind all that, that the transmission and conservation of Qur'an through the centuries given the means and the extension and the upheavals and accidnets that there always are, I consider it a formidable achievement, and as much as we may sometimes criticise decadence and deviations of muslims, this one feat is really a miracle if we are goig to believe in miracles. I don't, that is, I believe so much in miracles that I am convinced that everything, absolutely everything is a miracle, but the conservation of Qur'an is an outstanding miracle. Subhanallah.
Salaam
-
[/size
you say that there is a Y on top of ibrahm or abrahm in Chapter 2,these marks and diacritics are not considered added letters they are just to guide people into pronunciations of words and how they sound. in chapter 2 there is no 'ya" with 2 dots on bottom which is why its spelt as ibrahm abrahm. while it's spelt with two dots in the other chapters that he is mentioned in which makes it IBRAHEEM. READ THE TWO DIFFERENT NAMES WITHOUT THE ADDED MARKS AND DIACRITICS thats how i noticed the difference to begin with.
Abraham without the is only found in SURAH AL BAQARAH and Ibraheem with a is in every other surah i stated.
-
Salaam,
I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".
Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam an ibn Amer.
Chapter 2 " IBRAHAAMA"
Audio
http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/002.mp3
04151 ---------> 04752
Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140, you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAMA"
In the rest of the Quran " IBRAHEEMA"
Example chapter 87
Audio
http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/087.mp3
132
you will hear " IBRAHEEMA"
-
[/size
you say that there is a Y on top of ibrahm or abrahm in Chapter 2,these marks and diacritics are not considered added letters they are just to guide people into pronunciations of words and how they sound. in chapter 2 there is no 'ya" with 2 dots on bottom which is why its spelt as ibrahm abrahm. while it's spelt with two dots in the other chapters that he is mentioned in which makes it IBRAHEEM. READ THE TWO DIFFERENT NAMES WITHOUT THE ADDED MARKS AND DIACRITICS thats how i noticed the difference to begin with.
Abraham without the is only found in SURAH AL BAQARAH and Ibraheem with a is in every other surah i stated.
Salam
Whats your understanding of implications of these two different spellings of Ibrahim in Quran.
Sura 2, can be considered as earlier pages of Quran in which the spelling is different than later Suras. The earlier pages of Ibrahim are referred as 'Suhuf ul Oola' in 8618-19. However, not sure what the implication could be. Will appreciate if you have done some work on it, which you can share. -
-
Could you post a link of this manuscript, thanks in advance.
Sana'a manuscripts (UNESCO) downloaded they took it down (see page 111)
https//drive.google.com/file/d/1AqCXcBIkF3fq4RfDVUc3w3aeqzBZUFie/view
peace
-
Salaam,
IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.
-This particular spelling of the word Ibraheem without (ya) in chapter 2 is the case in the " Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)". (the majority of muslims 95 % follow this recitation)
- In the " Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)", the word Ibraheem is spelled with (ya) in all occurrences. (About 3 %of muslims follow this recitation)
Some opinions about the qira'at (reading, recitation)
http//quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
https//www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/qiraat/hafs.htmlWarsh recitation with English translation
http//www.quranflash.com/books/Warsh1/?en#sthash.aRVhBOGN.SctN6kSh.dpbsPeace, in oldest manuscripts spelled same with (ya) e.g. 22603 Ibrahim
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
https//s15.postimg.cc/7wg2beth7/ch2v259-266-2.jpg
- This manuscript shows more resemblance with the Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)",
I have verified the spelling of some words in this manuscript which are different between Warsh and Hafs.
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/128/handschrift/163
2132
Manuscript last line Warsh Hafs
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/53/handschrift/163
553
Manuscript line 4 Warsh Hafs554
Manuscript line 7 Warsh Hafs
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/107/handschrift/163
9107
Manuscript line 4 Warsh Hafs
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/36/handschrift/163
1836
Manuscript line 10 Warsh Hafs
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=163
7216
Manuscript line 21 Warsh Hafs
- Other manuscripts shows more resemblance with the Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)".
Example, this manuscript
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=418009;topic=9610294.0
This is my understanding so far, i could be wrong.
The most important is what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an
LiteralWord by Word
159 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.
4141 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
4142 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.8521 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
8522 In a Tablet, Guarded.Muhammad Asad
159 Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder? and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it .
4141 Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ
4142 no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised.8521 Nay, but this is a discourse sublime,
8522 upon an imperishable tablet .M. M. Pickthall
159 Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
4141 Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture.
4142 Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise8521 Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
8522 On a guarded tablet.Yusuf Ali
159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
4141 Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.
4142 No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.8521 Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
8522 (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!