New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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peace GL,
You mean no one has given you a satisfying example.
No, I was referring to no response to my previous question, which was
peace all,
Let's now move onto another point. To those who believe in the Traditional version of events (i.e. believers were praying towards Jerusalem, then switched to cuboid called Kabbah).
The Quran clearly states in 2150 that a reason given for the apparent change in qiblah is "so not will be for the people against you debate". In other words, doing this change will result in less/no debate/argument.
Can anyone explain why a united group (i.e. believers/jews/christians/etc all praying together in one direction, then believers disuniting and changing their prayer direction) will result in less debate/argument.
As to my first question, no-one gave specifics, e.g.
x in verse A
is amended to
Y in verse BSure, they made claims this happened but they did not satisfy me. If you have specifics let us know.
Suppose no one can give you another example in Qoran similar to the one you proposed, then what are you deducing?
Maybe the subject could be the only one of its kind in the whole Qoran and there are no other similar cases?Already answered here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg417924#msg417924
Also I would like to know why have chosen "depart" as a translation for "Kharajta"?
Choose whichever meaning you want, e.g. "set out / go out / start forth / come forth / depart etc" then with whatever meaning you choose, you can try answer the question if you want.
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Please translate "wamin haythu kharajta".
There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.36.gif
Firstly. what type of sentence is it? It is a conditional sentence. Condition followed by apodosis clause.
The verb "depart" has a Source location and Goal location. "Wherever" mentions the Goal, not the Source. Thereby it is not what the Arabic preposition Min says.
Recommencing/Conjunction particle.
Prepositional Phrase It relates to the following verb. The preposition signifies Source location of departure; hence it is connected with verbs which convey the idea of separation, departure, moving out. Its object is Adverb of location, always in construct with a following sentence.Verbal sentence Verb Perfect; second person; singular; masculine; Subject pronoun, referent for the addressee, the elevated Messenger, in nominative state; - Verbal Noun.
This sentence is grammatically in genitive state being construct to preceding Adverb. It stems from Root . It signifies exit, leaving a place, getting out, emerging from. This frame portrays moving of an object away from a Source location. The object may be an entity which moves under its own power. The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself.
Non-core features are the circumstances which describe the state of world at a particular time and space which is independent of the event itself and the participants of action; the explanation or motivation for why the object departs; the Time at which the departure takes place.
This conditional clause coneys this to the addressee
Take note O you the Messenger! from whatever direction you would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque),
Mentioning it as conditional clause with perfect verb the Time of exit is some future moment. This structuring reassures the addressee that this Exit will certainly happen in the future after he having visited its Source location, which is mentioned in the Apodosis clause.
The apodosis clause when the conditional clause would have been accomplished
thereby, at goal location cause your self face to face the dimension of the Sacred Mosque.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
Seems not studied, just skimmed.
"Wherever thou depart". Pl reread "wherever" which is the focus word. Preposition Min signifies Source location not Goal location.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
The apodosis clause mentions it. Adverb and verb both imply moving out of a specific place which is explicit in the same sentence.
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Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
You can consult any grammar book to ascertain use of haiso.
1- With a preposition Min, from where, from the place where, from the direction where.
2- With a following Ma, wherever. -
Mazhar claims "There is no "wherever thou depart" in Arabic text."
Then translates it as (I inserted "thou" in his translation as it is the singular of "you", to make it simpler) "from whatever direction thou would have exited it (the Sacred Mosque)"
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
"It" comes from secondary sources though brother Mazhar would not accept it. I have experienced it in some discussions with him. Let me quote translation from his website to show the influence of secondary sources
Indeed this is certainly Qur'aan which is characteristically exalted - guarantor/sustainer of life?
Its second characteristic is that it is scripted within a book whose prominent feature is that it is concealed and well protected.
People do not touch it (Qur'aan written on papers) except those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation).
The piecemeal dispatch and delivery of Grand Qur'aan is from the Sustainer Lord of the known/existing Worlds.
He has translated as "those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation)".
No offence intended brother Mazhar.
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"It" comes from secondary sources though brother Mazhar would not accept it. I have experienced it in some discussions with him. Let me quote translation from his website to show the influence of secondary sources
Indeed this is certainly Qur'aan which is characteristically exalted - guarantor/sustainer of life?
Its second characteristic is that it is scripted within a book whose prominent feature is that it is concealed and well protected.
People do not touch it (Qur'aan written on papers) except those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation).
The piecemeal dispatch and delivery of Grand Qur'aan is from the Sustainer Lord of the known/existing Worlds.
He has translated as "those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation)".
No offence intended brother Mazhar.
Since majority of people see only words and are not aware as to their function in the sentence, I do describe when it is adjectival, a noun portraying the characteristic of principle. Do I need to say function words do carry meanings.
What I have stated giving full meanings of words, can you find it in any so called secondaru source?
You have not determined what is the word If you would have seen its details at the end of page you visited you might have agreed.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/117.%20Muthara%20Ta%20Haa%20Ra%20clean/21.gif Passive Participle Definite; plural; masculine; nominative; . It is the Subject of preceding verb.
And perhaps you also do not know the meanings which are added to the base verb when it is Form-II. It means to render an attribute to the object which is signified by the verbal noun. Passive participle also means an entity upon which an action is carried out.
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Since majority of people see only words and are not aware as to their function in the sentence, I do describe when it is adjectival, a noun portraying the characteristic of principle. Do I need to say function words do carry meanings.
What I have stated giving full meanings of words, can you find it in any other source?
You have not determined what is the word If you would have seen its details at the end of page you visited you might gave agreed.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/117.%20Muthara%20Ta%20Haa%20Ra%20clean/21.gif Passive Participle Definite; plural; masculine; nominative; .
And perhaps you also do not know the meanings which are added to the base verb when it is Form-II. It means to render an attribute to the object which is signified by the verbal noun. Passive participle also means an entity upon which an action is carried out.
It is not about Form II or Passive Participle but about taking as physical purity. Lets see few examples from Quran
2125
342
541
..... .......9103
........3333
.........These are in Form II and do they mean physical purity?
Sorry brother Wakas for the distraction.
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It is not about Form II or Passive Participle but about taking as physical purity. Lets see few examples from Quran
2125
342
541
..... .......9103
........3333
.........These are in Form II and do they mean physical purity?
Sorry brother Wakas for the distraction.
Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?n
a) Total occurrences 31
b) No of constructions 24
Nouns 10; Recurrence 16 Verbs 14; Recurrence 15
The basic perception infolded in it is to make something clean or pure from dirt or filth. The basic job done is to segregate oneself, a thing from the impurities clung to it/around it.
The basic perception infolded in Root " " is to wash with water signifying the removing of dirt, or filth or the like thereof by making water to run over it resulting in cleansing/free from unpleasantness-impurity. And the basic perception infolded in the Root is also to make something clean or pure from dirt or filth. In both, the basic job done is to segregate oneself, one thing from the impurities clung to it/around it. The distinction and peculiarity, however, of the two is that " " is restrictively used for corporeal cleaning/purification with water while Root " " has connotation both corporeal and ideological and can be attained both with the help of water and otherwise.
Lane's Lexicons 1 and , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. of each , (Msb, K,) inf. n. , (S, Msb, K,) which is of each verb, (S, Msb,) and , (Sb, K,) or the latter is a simple subst., (S, Msb,) It was, or became, clean, free from dirt or filth, or pure. (A, * Msb, K. *) is of two kinds; corporeal and spiritual.
2 , inf. n. , (S) and he washed him, or it, with water (K) and signifies the same as . (Bd in lvi. 78. -
peace Mazhar,
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
RE 1)
You never explicitly clarified like I asked, but it's ok, I will assume you are claiming that it MUST refer to exiting/departing "al masjid al haram".- no translation I read states this (but perhaps you picked up on something others did not)
- I will ask those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I to see what they think about your claim
Please note, I haven't even addressed the consequence of your translation, i.e. whatever direction one exits Sacred Mosque one must turn to face it. I consider this nonsensical, but I'll reserve judgement til I check your claims.
RE 2)
Again, you never clarified like I asked but it's ok, as we can see you stated it can mean "and from where". I will check up on your "ma" claim.You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
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You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
No, I did not. Depart is okay because it means to leave from a place; set off to leave, especially at the beginning of a journey
In its core, place is included. Time is non-core, as we say departure time.
"Where" and "wherever" are two distinct words ]https//www.englishgrammar.org/using-where-and-wherever/
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peace Mazhar,
RE 1)
You never explicitly clarified like I asked, but it's ok, I will assume you are claiming that it MUST refer to exiting/departing "al masjid al haram".- no translation I read states this (but perhaps you picked up on something others did not)
- I will ask those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I to see what they think about your claim
Please note, I haven't even addressed the consequence of your translation, i.e. whatever direction one exits Sacred Mosque one must turn to face it. I consider this nonsensical, but I'll reserve judgement til I check your claims.
RE 2)
Again, you never clarified like I asked but it's ok, as we can see you stated it can mean "and from where". I will check up on your "ma" claim.You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
For understanding this one more aspect let me point out. What would be the state obtaining on its accomplishment?
After departing - leaving a place the place will become on the back of the person who left it. If he is asked to turn towards it being distant from it the appropriate verb is
Fa is for apodosis clause and signifies cause and effect and sequence of action when the first action has been completed.
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Peace Wakas.
I do not follow what you are trying to establish . I see your reasoning as a complicated set of getting to the meaning of "bayt" ,Masjid Al Haram" ,Kiblah...etc..
As for brother Mazhar, his debate with you is even more complicated and bitty.
Let me explain my understanding ,then see if you get what I mean
I see a context of Masjid Al Haram starting at 2124.i.e from Abraham.
2;225 tells us this
We have rendered the beyt a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as Musalla. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail "You shall purify My Beyt for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."I deduce this is talking about Musalla as a prayer place because of "those who do Raka and Sujud. - Bow and prostrate.
So obviously the rest of the verses all the way to 2163 are talking about the same subject of Masjid Al Haram, beyt, kiblah, deen/Millat of Abraham .
2142 is saying at the start of the task of delivering the message ,as a trial for the believers GOD ordered change from this kiblah of Abraham ,then when the message was established GOD ordered them to revert back to it 2144.
Why this is still talking about a focal point (Musalla for Iquami salat)?
2152-153 "Udhkuruni...( From Aquimi Salat Lidhikri) and "Istainu bi AlSabri wa "Salat"
Basically 2150 is saying wherever you go(come from) -I do not see depart- face (the focal point)(Al Masjid Al Haram. wherever you all are face the same direction...etc..
Of course my understanding has not given me any complication .
Elsewhere in Qoran,it is confirmed that "Iquami salat" was passed down from generation to another from Abraham
Of course this is my take on the verses, you may disagree ,but that is fine as I am explaining to you why I do not follow your reasoning.
I do not see the complications you are getting at.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Lane's Lexicons 1 and , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. of each , (Msb, K,) inf. n. , (S, Msb, K,) which is of each verb, (S, Msb,) and , (Sb, K,) or the latter is a simple subst., (S, Msb,) It was, or became, clean, free from dirt or filth, or pure. (A, * Msb, K. *) is of two kinds; corporeal and spiritual.
2 , inf. n. , (S) and he washed him, or it, with water (K) and signifies the same as . (Bd in lvi. 78.So brother Mazhar I chose spiritual purity in understanding 5679
because Quran is a book of guidance and we can get guidance only if we approach it with pure mind without any pre-conceived concepts. Of course it is my understanding. -
So brother Mazhar I chose spiritual purity in understanding 5679
because Quran is a book of guidance and we can get guidance only if we approach it with pure mind without any pre-conceived concepts. Of course it is my understanding.Guidance from any book is obtained only by reading it academically without bias.
The Passive participle is made from passive verb. And they are the subject of which signifies the feel-sensation of touch; hand on a thing without having anything between.
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peace GL,
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I do not consider your translations accurate.
I see a context of Masjid Al Haram starting at 2124.i.e from Abraham.
AMAH is never mentioned with Abraham.
So obviously the rest of the verses all the way to 2163 are talking about the same subject of Masjid Al Haram, beyt, kiblah, deen/Millat of Abraham .
Not according to
2141 That was a community that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they used to do.Of course my understanding has not given me any complication .
It can seem like that if one dodges the questions.
Elsewhere in Qoran,it is confirmed that "Iquami salat" was passed down from generation to another from Abraham
You've claimed this for years
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347679#msg347679 -
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Peace Wakas.
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All translations have to be checked including yours and mine and anybody else. They can never replace the original text that GOD preserved for all of us.
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In the context of the verses 2123-124...163,beyt,beyt Muharram, Maquam Ibrahim and Masjid Al Haram are the same place in my view of the verses and
2225
Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the Masjid Al Haram that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
2226
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My beyt for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.-
But according to 235-236 and "Thumma Ayhaina Ilaika An Ittabi Millat Abraham...i.e you follow Millat Abraham.
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If it dodges your questions ,I do not have your issues/questions.
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If I claimed ,I have given verses for my understanding,quote
Thank you once more.
Let me explain further, Why I think "salat" is part of the rites of "Millat" or " Deen"....of Abraham
2124
Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you an imam for the people." He said, "And also my descendants?" He said, "My covenant does not include the transgressors.
2127
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed) "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.2128
"Our Lord, make us Muslims to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of Muslims to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.2130
Who would forsake the Millat of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.2132
Moreover, Abraham exhorted his children to do the same, and so did Jacob "O my children, God has pointed out the Deen for you; do not die except as Muslimeen."I hope this clarifies for you my understanding of why I think the rites ,including "salat" have originated from Abraham.
Of course these are my views/understanding. Like I said I do not see the problems you see.
Hope that explains why I conversed with you here. And of course you are entitled to your views.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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Correction Wakas,3) should read 2135-136
Peace.
