Dying in a state of kufr and shirk
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My source is Qoran as we have it now( original Arabic text as far as I can deduce). What is/are your source/s from ?
Source??
How does it matter?Something is true (or false) because the source is X?
Is time relativity phenomenon true because the source is EINSTEIN?
or
Time relativity phenomenon is true because we can observe such phenomenon in Satellite orbiting the earth which has differential time period compared to a station on earth?Does something is FALSE because the source is Hadith?
And something is TRUE because the source is Quran? -
Sorry Jafar, we are talking about Shirk, not relativity or any other subject.
Shirk is connected to Qoran . Any other source is irrelevant on this subject because it will be off topic.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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I believe there is a single most powerful and only authority(the Creator) that has defined everything and has the right to explain the meanings. But I agree with you this authority does not impose them on anyone.
I, in turn, invite to this single authority ,the source of the ultimate and true knowledge
If I am deluded it is due to my own fault for my limited thoughts and arrogance and if I am guided it is due to this authority.He will give out answer to those who ASKED THE QUESTION.
Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find.That's why the Clerics, the Dictators, the Emir basically the Kufr a.k.a those who tried to cover something FORBID QUESTIONING, a blasphemer that's how they call those who dare to question. As once questioned the answer shall came, but the 'faith' might be lost.
So I invite others to this journey and find out for themselves. As long as your worldview is confined by commonly accepted superstitions and limited discoveries you will not understand anything outside of ideas you previously accepted. There is no single authority which has a right to impose meanings, that's what I was/am trying to say.
Agree
It's a journey that one need to take out for themselves..Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.
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Peace Jafar.
I was talking about my source.
I do not use Tanakah or any Judastic sources.
By the way jafar, What does "worshiping other gods " mean?"
As far as I know why would GOD ask for worship if He is free of any need? Qoran does ask anyone to "worship" GOD!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Correction brother Qoran does not ask anyone to "worship" GOD
Ibada to me is not worship.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Sorry I?ve missed alot.
Makaveli
I think not knowing is total different than knowing about something and intentionally ignoring or intentionally not willing to find out. Let me give an example. I know to get a good high school certificate grade I need to study xyz, I don?t know xyz but if I intentionally choose to not find out well I might be setting myself to failure. Let?s say I lived in another country where such a criteria was non-existent nor was it even valued. I?m not a total reject, I had no knowledge of such a system nor was it relevant so I couldn?t be labelled as incompetent or whatevs because of not knowing. Certain things are specific to time and place, and also knowledge.
According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we don?t know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped. Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
It?s not always a misery, for some ignorance is bliss. I think apathy on most things can be negative. I don?t understand your emphasis on astray, unless you?re going with traditionalist views that when a women leads, a society will crumble or some nonsense. It is assumed men will guide and lead however even when women do in today?s societies there are men who feel threatened and men who continue to adopt patriarchal ways without even realising. Be it because of culture, ignorance, laziness or just taking advantage of women knowingly or unknowingly or whatever other reason. Not saying all men are such but where I?m from they can sing and dance about women?s rights day in and out but traditional expectations still seem to be the norm.
I?ve never completely read a Quran-Only translation of Quran, some bits here and there but not completely. I don?t see them as criminals, it?s not an authority. At the end of the day one makes their own choices to adhere to a particular translation or not and we all know people are fallible so we?d be a little naive to rely on them wholly.
Anyway back to shirk, the idea of God being jealous is non-sense. Yes shirk can be viewed as only a religious issue (is it in other scriptures?) to me shirk isn?t about jealousy but about appropriate recognition of God.
Jafar
People have beliefs in particular sources be it true (or not) some things are not verifiable. As we don?t know everything or can?t find out everything and because we are social beings, it either suits our lifestyle or not. Submitting into something doesn?t necessarily mean we know about it inside and out. It just means something along the lines of we accept it, submit to it and do what we know/believe to be right. Sometimes blindly sometimes mindfully.
Peace.
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According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we don?t know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped.
Good attitude.
And whether the Quran really says that or not doesn't really matter.Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
Judge Not and thou shall not be judged.
Anyway back to shirk, the idea of God being jealous is non-sense.
God being jealous is definitely non-sense.
Yes shirk can be viewed as only a religious issue (is it in other scriptures?)
Yes, Tanakh and many other Judaistic sources.
Worshiping other gods other than YHVH is an unforgiven crime punishable by stoning.to me shirk isn?t about jealousy but about appropriate recognition of God.
God being angry due to not getting appropriate recognition is also non-sense.
God being angry is also non-sense.
Given everything that has happened, happening and shall happened it's 100% in accordance to His will and plan.People have beliefs in particular sources be it true (or not) some things are not verifiable. As we don?t know everything or can?t find out everything and because we are social beings, it either suits our lifestyle or not. Submitting into something doesn?t necessarily mean we know about it inside and out. It just means something along the lines of we accept it, submit to it and do what we know/believe to be right. Sometimes blindly sometimes mindfully.
Definitely, and it all happened to ALL human. Including you and me.
99% of human will FOLLOW/OBEY authority blindly regardless of what his/her conscience (or common sense) say. Only 1% among human has the guts to follow his / her own conscience and common sense.Should we then judge the Arabs for worshiping Hubal? the Egyptians for worshiping Ra? the Mesopotamian for worshiping Pazuzu? The Germans for worshiping Hitler?
Given 99% probability if YOU were born within such cultural context you will also do the same thing as they did.
And those remaining 1% will be oppressed, shunned and punished by the society.
Mr Jesus, Mr Abraham, Mr Socrates are among the famous figure of those 1%. -
I think not knowing is total different than knowing about something and intentionally ignoring or intentionally not willing to find out. Let me give an example. I know to get a good high school certificate grade I need to study xyz, I dont know xyz but if I intentionally choose to not find out well I might be setting myself to failure. Lets say I lived in another country where such a criteria was non-existent nor was it even valued. Im not a total reject, I had no knowledge of such a system nor was it relevant so I couldnt be labelled as incompetent or whatevs because of not knowing. Certain things are specific to time and place, and also knowledge.
Regardless of what 'xyz' is there for you, there is something each person intentionally rejects regardless of his cultural background or whether or not a doctrine or knowledge or teaching is proposed in his/her cultural background. It is not to say one is intentionally "rejecting". The Quran alone rejects the meaning of "disbelievers" for kafiirun because many of them are influenced by the "Quran Miracle" theory, so to claim one has to blindly believe is thus erreneous for them. How could God ask others to blindly believe and punish them fail they do so? So they make up the out-of-the-blue meaning for this word, saying someone "rejects" in case provided with "truth". Hence was my question, is someone considered to live/die in a state of kufr in case he/she was NOT introduced to such concepts? In any case, whatever they call this term, belief or reject is nowhere to be found in any Semitic language as far as I am concerned and both concepts are deluded, since each person is subject to rejection once he/she acquires initial education/backgroud/cultural values/morals. It is a matter of how far a "rejector" are you. Are you "open minded" (even though I dislike the term seeing how enforced it is in nowadays society), or how closed-minded i.e. convervative are you in areas like religion, family, M and F rights and obligations, child education et cetera. Most people do it autonomously, without giving it a thought when introduced to something, they simply "disagree", however, in reality they do not because they have not even understood the concept to begin with, let alone reject it. They simply feel it goes against their established values, therefore such information 'must be' automatically deemed as erreneous. It is done on the subconscious level. Even within the given culture there are contradictory concepts, like the age old one Kill Vs Murder. This is a great example of a phenomenon called double think when two or more bipolar views are simultaneously accepted or their meanings are taken into account despite evident contradiction because of other factors, such as a fear of being misunderstood by society, a fear of authority etc.
According to my understanding of the Quran one is advised not to call others rejecters/disbelievers as we dont know what clear evidences/truths they know or have grasped. Thus I believe ultimately God is the judge regardless of my views of their rightness or wrongness.
Nonetheless we can see hundreds of threads in this forum alone dedicated to the problem of "kufr", "shirk" and an overall "disbelieve" or "rejection", which is evident how people are interested in such concepts, and how they like to judge others based on their understanding. If anything, don't you think, reading and understanding the Quran, like any other spiritual guidance for that matter, then, in such a case, should be a personal activity and not something extended within general society?
Its not always a misery, for some ignorance is bliss. I think apathy on most things can be negative. I dont understand your emphasis on astray, unless youre going with traditionalist views that when a women leads, a society will crumble or some nonsense. It is assumed men will guide and lead however even when women do in todays societies there are men who feel threatened and men who continue to adopt patriarchal ways without even realising. Be it because of culture, ignorance, laziness or just taking advantage of women knowingly or unknowingly or whatever other reason. Not saying all men are such but where Im from they can sing and dance about womens rights day in and out but traditional expectations still seem to be the norm.
Astray is what 'they' believe women is subject to unless lead by a man, who is traditionally given "divine" authority over women. Women who accept this are what is usually labeled submissive, commonly accepted to be a coherent translation for muslim. Now, when you say "salem allaykum", do you mean "be a slave"? What do all (majority of?) other non-Semitic languages have for greeting?
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Jafar
Yes everything is in God?s plan. I don?t perceive God as angry for lack of recognition. But it?s more about human consequence.
We can judge others, doesn?t necessarily mean much. However what are your thoughts today with the abundance and ease of information access. Do you judge them? You seem happy to associate with all kinds of groups, maybe it?s just to placate others I don?t know. What thoughts do you have of them? Other than it?s God?s plan.
Makaveli
Sometimes we all have to deal with our own cognitive dissonance but I believe someone seeking truth tries to self regulate.
The Quran alone rejects the meaning of "disbelievers" for kafiirun because many of them are influenced by the "Quran Miracle" theory, so to claim one has to blindly believe is thus erreneous for them. How could God ask others to blindly believe and punish them fail they do so? So they make up the out-of-the-blue meaning for this word, saying someone "rejects" in case provided with "truth".
Lots of things are blind faith, discovering, uncovering and learning however I don?t see complete fault in this understanding. It all comes down to quranic terms and understanding. There?s s an example in the quran about belief, but rather they are told to identify as submitters as belief hasn?t reached their hearts. ? (4914)
It makes sense for one to accept something without knowing or understanding whole heartedly. And through discovery and learning they then believe or could go the other way and reject it.
As for kufr how can one truly reject something without knowing, or understanding? So people may generally make a misguided judgement and label others as kafireen but it doesn?t necessarily mean they are.
People who believe in God want to be doing right, want to be rewarded, may even fear punishment. Isn?t it natural for people to want to know the meanings of such terms, particularly if they take the Quran as guidance. Besides these concepts started long long ago when the khawaraj decided to label others. Most people like to judge others by their understanding which is why i tend to keep my views to myself particularly with family as some people are not ready to listen, or think but only ready to criticise and impose.
There is a practical element to the spiritual guidance and for that reason some things will always involve society. No matter how personal our journeys are.
Now, when you say "salem allaykum", do you mean "be a slave"? What do all (majority of?) other non-Semitic languages have for greeting?
No and i?m not sure. I say it because it is a social aspect of greeting other Muslims in faith and as far as i know it doesn?t mean ?be a slave?.
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There is a practical element to the spiritual guidance and for that reason some things will always involve society. No matter how personal our journeys are.
Society is basically Iblis (literally), it is the shadow of God's representation of human relationships among themselves, for man can only percieve shadow, he is not yet ready to percieve God's light, it will make him blind. Therefore your personal self has to develop thinking patterns, which would teach you to be merciful, compassionate and intuitive as a lunar feminine essence, yet also logical and knowledgeable as a masculine solar essence. This way you develop faith, which is your moral sense of right and wrong, a guide to your behaviour. But such is only possible with contemplation on the personal level, society distracts you and confounds. You have to take a break from social interactions from time to time in order to learn the patterns society follows, so as to learn to execute mercy and compassion towards people's miserable life full of pain, sorrow and confinement. But at first you have to be an observer and contemplate on what is going on around your life and around the lives of your fellow people. Unless of course you are a jinn/psycopath (a person who lacks natural sense of compassion towards other's suffering), which is also an option for many people. I don't think you are, but for them it's all over. Do not try to persuade a psychopath.
No and im not sure. I say it because it is a social aspect of greeting other Muslims in faith and as far as i know it doesnt mean be a slave.
If that does not mean 'be a slave' then how can it mean 'be submissive' (Eslam)? Why just Muslims? Jews greet the same way. Estonians greet the same way. Russians greet the same way. Every nation as far as I know greet the same way.
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Jafar
Yes everything is in God?s plan. I don?t perceive God as angry for lack of recognition. But it?s more about human consequence.
Some human perceived God as if It is a human, thus it became 'angry' when a frightening event happened to them. (ie volcanic eruption, earthquake, thunderstorm etc..) and need to be pacified by 'offerings'. Such tradition exists in nearly every part of the world.
We can judge others, doesn?t necessarily mean much.
It means when you start judging others with certain standards, be ready to be judged by such standards as well.
Because definitely you will, it's a correlative relationship.However what are your thoughts today with the abundance and ease of information access. Do you judge them?
It's a blessing.. and no I don't judge...
You seem happy to associate with all kinds of groups, maybe it?s just to placate others I don?t know. What thoughts do you have of them? Other than it?s God?s plan.
Short answer Love
If somebody said I'm a member of all Football Club's fans club, why do you think he is as such?
Does he really did that to placate others? or is it because he loves football? thus he appreciate all stakeholders of the game?And why you then didn't find it weird on somebody who is a fan of only ONE football club?