Who is Isra'iil إِسْرَائِيلَ
-
If i recall, Bani Isra'iil were never called Jews/Yahud in the Qur'an.
-
I have not looked at it in particular, but I have the impression that one thing is allathina haadu and another are the bani Isra'iil
Salaam
Salam/Peace Huruf.
Alif-Siin-Ra = to make captive, prisoner, joint/ligament/frame/vigour/energy.
asara vb. (1) impf. act. 3326
asir n.m. (pl. asra/asara) 285, 867, 870, 768
asr n.m. 7628
isra'il n. 240, 247, 283, 2122, 2211, 2246, 349, 393, 393, 512, 532, 570, 572, 578, 5110, 7105, 7134, 7137, 7138, 1090, 1090, 1093, 172, 174, 17101, 17104, 1958, 2047, 2080, 2094, 2617, 2622, 2659, 26297, 2776, 3223, 4053, 4359, 4430, 4516, 4610, 616, 6114
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 94, 95 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=asr
Best if we check out the verses contain Bani Isra'iil
-
I do not think it is root A-s-r but s-r-y and masdar of form IV israa' like islam or ihsan
Salaam
Siin-Ra-Ya?
Siin-Ra-Ya = to travel during the night, to depart/pass. asra - to make anyone to travel by night, repair to an upland. sarat - highest point, summit. sariyyan - rivulet, fountain, stream, chief of the nation.
sara vb. (1)
impf. act. 894sariy n.m. 1924
asra vb. (4)
perf. act. 171
impv. 1181, 1565, 2077, 2652, 4423LL, V4, p 79, 80 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=sry
-
Peace huruf.
I will use Qoran{
1- Abraham had a son called "Ishaq!, then a grandson called"Yaqub".
2_ Yaqub had sons " Brothers of Usuf" and they settled in "Misr" under the Kingdom of Misr /
3- Beni Israeel were first mentioned with Moses ,they were servants /slaves to the Pharoah of misr.The common factor of Misr and the sons of Yaqub settling there makes a "beni Yaqub" tribe living there and a "Beni Israeel" tribe being there years later at the time of Moses can only mean the two are the same tribe.
Since Qoran switches to "Beni Israeel" at the time of Moses and does not specify who is Israeel one can conclude that Yaqub and Israeel must be the same person.
The only possibility I can get at.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The name Isra'iil appears 43 times in the Qur'an, 42 of them as part of the compound Bani Isra'iil, and a single, lonely one time s the name by itself, in an enumeration after the name of Ibrahim. It appears as if the reaso for the lonely appearance would be to be able to then bring us the 42 times of the bani Isra'iil.
Salaam
You are probably speaking about this verse
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.But there is also this one
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say ?Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.?
where Israel is presented as a "guy" who forbids things for himself without instructions from Allah. What a strange messenger ? isn't it ?
Now i will add questions.
It was said to us that "arabs" are descent to a "guy" called Ismail, son of a woman called hagar.
the question is why Quran never speaks to banu ismaeel and prefers to adress the banu israeel ?
why Quran dont relates us story about "ismael", what he did and his family ?Another linked question.
If Allah have only one deen that is islam, and if all messengers before Muhammah were muslims and if Allah never mention a religion called judaism thenwhat is judaism ?
who are Jews in quran if this word exist in Quran ? and if not exists then who are yahood and who are allathina hadoo ?of course i have also my responses but it will be difficult to accept for readers here and it will be difficult to expose without bible and history and with only quran. it is really a hard work to expose all.
let say that in what we call now "muslims", there is banu israel, there is also yahood and there is also allathina hadoo.5101 O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if clarified, would harm you - and if you ask about them with the Qur?an being revealed, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Peace
-
Odd, half of NoShirk's text is missing.
-
Salam,
1090 clearly affirms that banii Israila are muslimima when Firaun says so
1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted (muslimina).
(And btw i think it is the only moment when "bani" is used in nominative (banuu) regarding "bani Israila".
And I cant recall any verse stating that banii Israila are the yahudu, but as other brothers pointed out, in 1958 and 393 he seems to be a person named beside Abraham, before the revelation of Tawra who had descendants (i dont know in which sense).
Brother Noshrik I encourage you to share your knowledge and point of view. It would be really interesting. Thank you
-
Salam,
1090 clearly affirms that banii Israila are muslimima when Firaun says so
1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted (muslimina).
(And btw i think it is the only moment when "bani" is used in nominative (banuu) regarding "bani Israila".
And I cant recall any verse stating that banii Israila are the yahudu, but as other brothers pointed out, in 1958 and 393 he seems to be a person named beside Abraham, before the revelation of Tawra who had descendants (i dont know in which sense).
Brother Noshrik I encourage you to share your knowledge and point of view. It would be really interesting. Thank you
Salam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while! Yes as i said before, i have not seen a verse calling Bani Isra'ill yahudu. And sister Bikrun found a verse conforming that they were muslims/peacemakers.
-
I thank you all for your answers, they are helpful and make the subject more lively and interesting.
I missed the israa'iil in 3.92. Thank you.
At any rate in this case as in others I have become suspicious of what traditionally are called proper names int he Qur'an because once that label is pinned on a word, then it seems that we are precluded from seeing any meaning in it.
I personally think that the words I am calling into question are full of meaning, a meaning which is important for us now and ever, I would say.
In israa'iil I see very plainly the word
israawhich has a clear qura'nic meaning. In fact it is the title of a sura which it seems is also known for a second title as banisraaiilFor me there is no doubt that the gist of the question is in the israa' part. Those who travel by night. Germanic people have a celebration in autumn when they go outside with candles and they sing, like they travel by night seeking the light and they are going "HOME". It is a spiritual celebration. I do not know if the halloween of about the same dates has the same origin, but as I have lived the germanic thing in Austria and amongst the swiss it is really serious, moving and beautiful, very heartfelt and quiet.
I cannot but see in the `israa' the same spiritual meaning, the quest for the divine light.
So the thing I am still seeking is the "iil" part. Smoke is coming out of my head from trying to find the grammatical morphological support to the compound
israaiil.
At one time I thought the iil might be what comes in the dictionnaries as "ill" with the meaning of pact or compact, but there is a double lam which obviously inisraaiil is not there, neither it is there in for instanceismaa3iil which is exactly the same word form asisraa`il, a masdar of form IV + iil.What I have been able to find which would come closer would be a noun of root Alif-w-l, from which the word
aal, likeaal 3imraan, derives.So the bani
israaiil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou baniisraaiil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where we are going.I would be very thankful for any help with the morphological grammar part of the question that I have mentionned.
As to the person named
israaiil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.Salaam and thank you again.
-
Sardar I think there is an issue with your browser not displaying certain characters
Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.
-
So the bani
israaiil, as I see it, would be all those people in whose past or traditions there are teachings about going from darkness into light, which in fact would be all the peoples int he world. It would not be a blood or genes question, but a spiritual behaviour question, and therefore if in the Qur'an we are told over and over abou baniisraaiil it is not because there would be a special people who should be overimportant for everybody, but rather because we all have those characteristics of keeping forgetting what we were about and where we come from and where we are going.As to the person named
israaiil, if it is a person, it could be the initial preacher of that travel from darkness into light among his or her or its people. It may be merely a message. Just as rasul has been applied to persons but in fact it is a message.Salam,
Interesting point, please share if you get deeper into it.
Maybe the next will help
237 Adam then received words from his Lord, so He forgave him; He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.
238 We said "Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
239 And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.
240 "O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I had bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and reverence Me alone.
241 And believe in what I have sent down, affirming what is with you, and do not be the first to disbelieve in it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware"Bani Israila have nothing to do with yahudu. Bani Israil were sent a revelation to confirm what is with them already (??) and maybe they have been there since Adam (??) or at least they are from the first groups of humans (or from the firt kinds of individuals, I dont know) since the "I" from 240 is addressing them directly and telling them not to be the first (awwala) to disbelieve. Let's see then what "Israil" means and maybe just maybe that Israel in bani Israila is just a coincidence with the prophet Israil in 392
Salam/Peace Bikrun, it's been a while!
Salam, brother! group Yeeeees, it is been a hard long while but thanks God everything is fine pr
-
Are you sure? Could be. I dont know maybe we should tell this to the staff about this.
,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.Salaam
-
,
I think you told me at one time that there was no text in a message of mine and showed it, but that text was there, I could see it and I guess everybody else could see it too. May be it is some configuration you have, settings or whatever. Or may be you are bewitched, hahaha.Salaam
NEIN!
-
Now in 393 is something that has on my mind
393 كل الطعام كان حلا لبنى اسراءيل الا ما حرم اسراءيل علىا نفسه من قبل ان تنزل التورىاة قل فاتوا بالتورىاة فاتلوها ان كنتم صادقين
Now if you see this 2 Isra'ill is i marked with colors with green & red.
Red is the Bani Isra'ill which is a genitive proper noun is of course referring to the tribe of Isra'ill where as the green one is the person named Isra'ill which the grammar form is a nominative proper noun.
Now here is something i noticed.
All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tawrat was sent down.
Kullu alttaAAami kanahillan libanee isra-eela illa ma harramaisra-eelu AAala nafsihi min qabli an tunazzala alttawratuNoticed the phrase qabli an tunazzala alttawratu/before the Tawrat was sent down. Does this mean that Bani Isra'ill existed before Tawrat was sent down by Allah/God (SWTAY)? Correct me if i am wrong. Salam/Peace.
-
Salaam
OK.
i will summarize and i will not use conditional since all is my own point of viewisra is something like travel in secret/by night.
el for me mean people like al firauonisreal, for me represent the priesthood. That is "people" who put themselves on the track of true messengers searching for opportunities for themselves.
Priesthood is equal to false prophecy since all the time they says "allah says and son on" and Allah never said what they says.
We have to distinguish word Rabb from Word Allah. Rabb mean educator withe Allah means "The God".
There is only one Rabb means not to take others Rabbs. Rabbis, riba and Rabb are same root.banu is not descent but means educated by. walad is biological descent.
so banu israel point to all people astrayed by false prophecy of Israel. Banu Israel make shirk by mixing teaching of God with teaching of Israel.
When Moses said to Firaoun "arsil" banu Israel with me, that doesn't mean send them with me to another country but a reference to his "messenship" (arsil and rassol same root). So Moses asked Firaoun to let him teach to people astrayed bu Israel. however Firaoun declared he is the Rabb (that is educator and not God). Please check the speach of the good guy in people of firaon who clearly determine that people of Firaoun recognized Yusuf as prophet.
As Borther Pazuzu showed, All this story was somewhere in Yemen and not in Egypt.In the bible, "Israel" took the place of Jacob after a fight with an angel. It is allegorical.
and he cheated his father Isaac to become prophet in place of his brother Esau. Rabbis presents Esau as the father of "occident/christianity"What "Israel" want is power and money and uses religion for that.
Israel is from antiquity searching to establish kingdom of Israel.Israel never existed as a person.
At opposite Ismael is the people (el) who (listen). In fact it represent the true followers of God. Since there is no priesthood in Ismael, people educated by Ismael have no sense and banu Ismael had no sense. I think also that Ismael perhaps never existed as person
Yahood represent Ya hood that is people who call themselves the guided ones. In fact yahood consider themselves guided since they are born. They can be even atheist. Religion for them is just cultural identity. They are not considered as believers even if they says so. No paradise for them.
Allathina Haadoo is another concept. It can be traduced by "who were guided", so we cannot decide if they are still guided or not. They are true believers in god but can do many mistakes since they also be banu Israel. However they are a mix of good and bad persons.
to expose and justify my opinion, it would take many time and it is a debate "for specialists"
However let see things from another side.
Actual Tawrat/Torah is not a revealed book. Tawr mean a messenger accepted by both sender and receiver.
Actual Torah can be considered as a mix of teaching of Allah and Israel.
I don't know how the mix was done.But it is interesting how Israel changed "the story" comparing with Quran.
In Quran there is no Esau, no Hagar, no expulsion of Ismael by Abraham.But there is as story hidden in all this.
An allegorical anthropomorphism.
And never forget in what will follows that it is point of view of Israel, that all is reverted, and that in Quran Issac and Jacob were good guys.Let says that Abraham represents God.
God has a first child (Ismael).
The mother of Isaac (the second child) asked Abraham to expulse Ismael (compare with expulsion of Ibliss from paradise).Isaac has a strange name. Root points to destruction.
Isaac has tow childs (Esau and Jacob). Esau (probably same root as Issa) represents the circumcision of the heart (spiritual approach of religion like many quranists here) and Jacob the classic circumcision (that is a religion based on ritualism like prostrating 5 a days toward a kaabb in stone).
the fight for prophecy between Esau and Israel is a prefiguration of the fight between Christ and antichrist.But the true religion is Ismael. Not Spirituality and not ritualism.
Really, it is too hard to expose this. And in english, it is quite impossible for me.
Peace
-
-
Peace noshirk.
Nice to see you active here. Welcome back.The following is telling a story about "Beni Israeel". Some group living with Moses at his time?
Starting here-240
and ending here-2123
True events that took place with a tribe under the leadership of Moses!I do not see the whole story as allegorical although it has many lessons to be learned.
This tribe is a community at that time that lived in Misr and went through the adventure of rescue with Moses.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
