Hafs or Warsh

good_logic

Imran. I understand you The number composition gets on your nerve.

But I disagree with you. I do not follow RK or any human. I am checking everything myself.

May be your maths is so advanced you probably think I will not understand it since you have not provided it.

All I have seen in your posts is your opinion agreeing with others . Does that mean you follow others?

I hope you see what I am saying to you also.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

There is proverb, portuguese, I think, which says

God writes straight with twisted lines

Which I find it is another way of saying "everything is for good", even bad is for good, it depends on what we do with it.

And there is also a sufi tale whcih says a cheikh told a disciple to take a formidable stone and put it on the top of the mountain close by.

Years spent the disciple and did not get the damned stone even beyond close to the bottom and he complained the cheikh about his powerlessness to do what he was told.

The cheikh smiled (the bastard) and retorted
And who needs that stone on top of that mountain? Nobody,
But look at yourself, you were flimsy, without any stamina, no muscle no nothing. And look at yourself, you are strong, capable, disciplined, master of yourself...
There is your mountain which you have conquered.

More or less, that is the gist of it.

Everything is for good. Even the useless is for good. Even mistakes are for good. We may be wrong but those wrongs are always the opportunity for something right we had not even imagined. Everywhere is God's kingdom, there is no where that it is not God's kingdom. Wherever we turn there is the face of God. God is the master teacher and wonder worker and shower.

We should not refrain from doing what we consider a good idea for fear of not being right. We will get something right even if it is not what we expected. Those are the gifts of God for our trust in life, in existence, in the ONE MIRACLE which is everything.

So numbers may be wrong, may be right, may be both, but if we trust that numbers will bring us something, God will give us our numbers, the lucky ones for us.

Subhanallah and alhamdulillah

Salaam

imrankhawaja

example look what he did with algebra

@ GL

please before passing the statements we should always look at the facts in hand
i provide you something but i feel u dnt have any answer for that or you dnt know real algebra?

thats why i already gave u hint in advance to read my posts three four times.

thats why i said ?couple of years ago the debates were atleast worthy to read but now a days it looks funny. ?

God bless you

imrankhawaja

So numbers may be wrong, may be right, may be both, but if we trust that numbers will bring us something, God will give us our numbers, the lucky ones for us.

Subhanallah and alhamdulillah

Salaam

salam habibti, subhanAllah and mashAllah on your purposeful and meaningful words a lot for people who can ponder on every aspect of issue.

i see people who ask questions about number 19 they ask about what Good a number 19 can possibly bring ? any benefit ?

they dnt have the answer apart from same beating around the bush thats y i m bored to be honest.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
What benefit code 19 brought? I see you want an answer to this question!

You have to specify then?
Benefit to the soul? benefit to the mind? benefit to enjoy this life? benefit to salvation? benefit to understand Qoran?
Think properly before you answer!!!
I can ask a similar question
What benefit does the actual composition/arrangement of the surahs as we have them bring? Why do we have Qoran in this present arrangement?

Look brother you say we have many versions, and some differ in spellings, some differ in words some in how many verses altogether in total.
So did GOD send all these different versions? Did GOD finish sending the warsh version ,then carried on with a little more verses to complete the hafs?
Or did GOD sent one verse at a time until the whole(1 book) was complete?
If that is the case ,then GOD sent one version!

Do we have the means to find out (This generation) or did all generations before us had the means?
How do we find out? Would you agree about the three ways?
1-Find all the versions(including the one circulating at the time of the prophet ) and do a comparison.

2-Filter all the true history ,use this and logic to come up with the copy

3-Use Mathematics (This generation have the means) . See if GOD has used mathematics to lock His scripture (This is the only fool proof way). The best way to write /dictate a book and make sure it is preserved totally for ever(every letter, every word, every chapter ) is to lock it mathematically.
Brother, think about this kind of 100% preservation?

Of course you may add other methods if you can think of some?

Actually the number structure is just part of the arrangement of how the surahs have been ordered the way we have them today. So what benefit do you expect apart from the 100% way of preserving the text?
Or are you expecting a new ritual called code 19 ?
You see brother that question has no meaningin salvation terms. The benefit is in the message.

Certainty about the message leads to following /taking the message seriously . This is the benefit being certain it is from GOD.
Of course you will say some are certain without numbers. Then all of us work hard towards our salvation and the issue is not so important.
But the argument of preservation is a very strong one/
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

My take is the witness is Rabbi Judah the Pious (11th Century A.D.), who discovered the same 19-based mathematical code in intact fragments of the Jewish scripture

peace, poor reading comprehension; again use "context and "tense" not auto-insert future numerologist.

3-Use Mathematics ... make sure it is preserved totally for ever(every letter, every word, every chapter ) is to lock it mathematically.

THEN show example lock verse 201 ta ha?
ELSE do not repeat false claim without proof!

Don?t come back we discussed since you or anyone NEVER showed proof!
Don?t divert with questions before simply answering, NO you can't is fine!

BTW, in the oldest manuscripts it's consistently written as single verse 201-2

201 ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an to thou discontent

University of Birmingham Qur?an manuscript among world?s oldest
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-HDFiC2boQ

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=56

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=141

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=163

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=173

good_logic

Peace Noon.
Are you aware of this
https//submission.org/verify_writing_of_Alif_Yaa_and_Taa.html

Which "T" is it in chapter 20? Or are you going to argue for both "T" and "H"?

All these anomalies have been discussed in numerous threads with you and others.

There is more to come with the perfection of Mathematics( Quantum computers will also play their part in the future).
My maths and yours are primitive compared to GOD s.
Brother Noon ,you are very insisting after all these years, but your expertise (Maths) that you are claiming will turn against you .
Wait ,we are also waiting!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Which "T" is it in chapter 20?

peace, use magnifier
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

answer question use interlock/code or whatever to lock 201 ta ha?

it's ok to admit you don't know what you're talking about move on.

imrankhawaja

peace, use magnifier
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

answer question use interlock/code or whatever to lock 201 ta ha?

it's ok to admit you don't know what you're talking about move on.

hahahahaha rotfl exactly

good_logic

Peace Noon.
Why do you want my count? You need to check it. Here is how I counted so you can do the same
https//submission.org/verify_how_to_count_Quranic_initials.html

Your question is not honest. You want to argue the case like you always do.
Besides you claim to know "19" better than anyone else. Are you stuck?
You do your count and I do mine.
I use hafs version and I am satisfied with my count.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Why do you want my count?

peace, didn't ask you to count letters or links to dumb websites.

it was asked show how it's locked to chapter verse 201 ta ha ?

is it combined single verse like in oldest manuscripts -- why not ?

201 ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an to thou discontent

imrankhawaja

it was asked show how it's locked to chapter verse 201 ta ha ?

is it combined single verse like in oldest manuscripts -- why not ?

noon bravo you smashed the idol name as code 19

theres a saying in my culture.

?becoming FOOL is more entertaining then making someone FOOL?
about this saying FOOL need time to understand the proverb first then the purpose of proverb although its a deep saying got meanings in it...

imrankhawaja

I use hafs version and I am satisfied with my count.

peace GL

intresting to know HAFS version hmm ,,,
can i ask in your version there is any 128 and 129 verse in chapter 8/9?

provide evidence of oldest manuscript in which these two verses missing ?

if not then your and all code 19 claims are fake as it based on proven lie.

good_logic

Peace Noon.
The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.
That old manuscript is not the original just like you are claiming other manuscripts with T H as a separate verse are not.

You provide evidence it is the original copy and you will have a point.
If on the other hand you are claiming T H are not initials then provide their meaning?

Are you sure you do not see the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Should it not be the other way around?
You provide ,with evidence, the original copy of the prophet with 128 and 129 in surah 9 in it and the matter will close.
Much simpler for you.
If on the other hand you say the high probability is that majority of mushafs contain 128 and 129,then I say the mathematical structure has a 100% probability that they do not.
Yours against mine?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.

peace, here are three of the oldest manuscripts -- show errors?

201 ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an to thou discontent

University of Birmingham radiocarbon dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Ma VI 165 University of T?bingen radiocarbon dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
~1800 verses 1735 - 3657 (~28% of total text)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107

Berlin State Library radiocarbon dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
~85% of total text Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=163

good_logic

Peace Noon.
I could also ask you to show an error here

Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.
Old manuscript does not mean correct manuscript without errors. Unless of course one can bring evidence it is the original copy.
Or are you assuming old manuscripts have no errors?
This is one good reason why a mathematical structure will solve it 100%.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.

Peace, show one earlier than 200+ years after revelation? (BTW, posting for benefit of others)

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek Ma VI 165 dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305) 662-765 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=163
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

Gotthelf-Bergstr??er-Archiv "Saray Medina 1a" Istanbul, Topkap Saray before 800 CE?
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=56
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=56
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

Kodex Samarkand (Faksimiledruck Sankt Petersburg 1905) 700-850 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=141
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 328 (b) before 750 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=157
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 335 800 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=37
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

imrankhawaja

peace Gl

PLZ read my post 34.
you missed something. ?

you claimed you are satisfied on your count and you said HAFZ but on same time you are rejecting verses (128-129) which were present in the oldest manuscript (any hafz) found in earth YOU GET IT now.

so its mean your theory hold no water.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
You are missing the most important thing here
The oldest manuscript? Is it the original copy that the prophet brought?
Please go over the evidence for me if I missed that?
Or is it you who do not understand my posts.
Claiming it is the oldest is very easy to do. How accurate is our Science of dating 100%?
Actually ,judging by what happened in history, the only fool proof method that preserves the text is the impossible to imitate number structure of the text!
GOD bless you.
Peace.