salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

NK

Peace Wakas,

I have read your article and read this thread but still I have a question. My apology if i missed anything which was already explained in the thread. Your understanding helped me to understand those controversial verses. I know it is an old thread and I appreciated if you answer my question.

My question is simple. What is the relationship of chapter 5 verse 33 with above discussion?. Is there any relationship or they are separate verses with no relationship with above discussion

Salam.

Wakas

peace NK,

From the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

The situation in 91-12 is similar to the thief and those who fight against The God and His messenger , they are not required to convert, they are required to repent and amend, i.e. it is not necessary for them to become Muslim, as this would be absurd. Nor are they required to repent to The God, because this would imply there are no disbelieving thieves, an impossibility. That is why there is no 'ila/to' mentioned in the context, just like in 93, 95, 911. 'The reading' could have easily used 'ila/to' if that was actually the intended meaning, like it did in 664 for example, but it didn't.
If repenting to The God or converting to Muslim was required then imagining a workable example in a real-life situation is difficult. The reader is strongly recommended to think of real-life situations.

96 If we accept conversion as one of the options, lets look at the solution apparently suggested

The polytheists convert to Muslims, uphold/maintain the prayer and bring forth the betterment.
OR
They can seek protection, without the need to give an apology, no re-commitment to the treaty, no compensation, delivered to safety/security, nothing in return except having to ask for protection.

This is extremely unlikely, especially when considering the firm tone of the verses. The only way the above can be made plausible is if option (2) actually refers to delivering them to their safety/security, i.e. out with the community/land, i.e. banishment. From my understanding of the verses and taking into account 533, this is what is recommended. But if this is chosen for those who hold the salat=prayer view, then it means people either convert to Muslims or are banished from the land/community. Is this likely?

Or did you mean something other than the above?

NK

Peace Wakas,

I think I was not clear in my question. I mean, the punishment states in 533-34 is not same as 95-6. I mean that part of 533 "that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land".

Is God talking about same thing in both verses?

Wakas

Is God talking about same thing in both verses?

To answer that question, we have to consider does Quran use same wording/phrasing in both verses (i.e. in both verses describe them as "...allatheenayuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna feeal-ardi fasadan...&quot? Yes/No.

NK

No.

bookish

Sorry for resuming an old thread. I read the original article and it's quite persuasive in it's conclusion that prayer/worship isn't the only meaning for Salat. It's a word with multiple meanings depending on the context.

But it would really help if you could write another article to explain how timed Salat is to be done based on the Quran. Does it only involve reading the Quran? If that's so, how can you be 100% sure? Is there no basis in the Quran for performing Salat the way it's traditionally done (standing, reciting Al-Fatiha, bowing down)?

There are several articles by other Quran-alone monotheists on this site that establish timed Salat as a form of prayer, and that it clearly involves a position of standing and bowing down. What are your thoughts about such articles?

On the other hand, reading the Quran also makes a lot of sense because many traditional Muslims don't read the Quran to actually understand it. And many of them pray in the traditional way but are otherwise not mindful of God; they just do it as a ritual or formality, especially the Friday prayer. I find it very fascinating that the Quran can be interpreted in such a new manner that makes so much of sense.

Another thing I've noticed is this, and this is a personal observation Sometimes when I'm praying, I get distracted and just feel as if I'm doing a ritual. It seems forced sometimes, but it might also be that my faith isn't so strong. I currently pray thrice a day in English. I recite Sura Al-Fatiha and prostrate, twice (2 rakaats or units).

But when I read the Quran or read about God's signs (scientific stuff), it makes me more aware and mindful of God. Even just visiting these forums and reading the discussions about the Quran makes me feel more aware of God.

It is also interesting to note that the Koran does not say anywhere that we should recite Surah Al-Fatiha during prayer and pray two units.

Thanks!

Wakas

peace,

But it would really help if you could write another article to explain how timed Salat is to be done based on the Quran.

I wrote a basic article a while back http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
I was in the process of writing a much more detailed article, and I may resume it at some point in the future.

Does it only involve reading the Quran? If that's so, how can you be 100% sure? Is there no basis in the Quran for performing Salat the way it's traditionally done (standing, reciting Al-Fatiha, bowing down)?

It's difficult to be 100% sure, but if we are going by Quran then there is very limited evidence for the common salat/prayer format. Bear in mind there is some overlap.

There are several articles by other Quran-alone monotheists on this site that establish timed Salat as a form of prayer, and that it clearly involves a position of standing and bowing down. What are your thoughts about such articles?

I have never seen one with any convincing evidence. As I said there is limited evidence for such an understanding, so all of those articles use that limited evidence and extrapolate from it, to arrive at the pre-conceived notion they have of salat as a ritual prayer.

Whilst there are some differences in understanding one should consider the significance, if any, of such differences in the big scheme of things. Both are remembering/mentioning God, using Quran for their source material, and aiming to live by what they reading from it.

reel

Whilst there are some differences in understanding one should consider the significance, if any, of such differences in the big scheme of things. Both are remembering/mentioning God, using Quran for their source material, and aiming to live by what they reading from it.

Do you see any link between contact and "call upon Allah" mentioned in several verses? I also noticed believers most often are talking to him. I think this is one of the clearest instructions about salat

Say, "Invoke Allah or invoke the Most Gracious. By whatever name you invoke, to Him belongs the Most Beautiful Names. And do not be loud in your prayers and not be silent therein, but seek between that a way." 7194

I feel id'u should be translated as "call" and not invoke. This way we get
Say, "Call Allah or Call the Most Gracious. By whatever name you call, to Him belongs the Most Beautiful Names. And do not be loud in your contact and not be silent therein, but seek between that a way. " 7194

Wakas

Do you see any link between contact and "call upon Allah" mentioned in several verses?

I'm not sure what you mean but a "bond" (or contact) involves a relationship between two (or more) entities. To "call upon Allah", to praise/magnify Allah, to seek God's guidance, to read/recite God's guidance etc are all in a similar area, hence me saying there is some overlap between understandings.

Makaveli

To pray is to meditate/contemplate/focus/concentrate and to establish healthy thinking patterns to live in harmony with universal law (God). It does not necessarily mean literally to pronounce words and call upon him. Pray means to form an image, that's what the word from root SL means, an image behind a problem to contemplate upon and to harmonize your thoughts. That's what basmala is for, for its purpose is harmony of mind, to find your purpose in life and remind yourself of your personal task in universal law. That is why every chapter starts with basmala, to give you a hint on how to read the rest of it.