Pork is HALAL

Mahdi_Ibrahim

handshake

https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg/1280px-Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg.png

Direct argument
Counterargument
Rebuttal argument

Noon_waalqalami

and please tell me...

Why it should be "flesh of swine", and why not "maggoty and stinking" flesh?

What is the difference?

perhaps pay attention to what others post less "spam" pics; it was answered by wakas earlier.

incorrect broken language and flesh (noun) the maggoty/stinky (adjective)

if adjective is definite then noun is definite ? basic rule check all qur'an, hadith, newspapers, etc. to verify

the path the straight
the bounty the major
the thread the white
the thread the black
the provision the righteous
the life the world
the devil the accursed
the success the major
the depth the lowest
the house the prohibition
the names the beautiful

and the ideology the prohibition
and the connection the middle
and the horses the branded
and the neighbor the far
and the day the afterlife/last
and the country the clean/pure
and the home the afterlife its

Mahdi_Ibrahim

We are responsible for its interpretation. (7519)

(Aidid Safar) Indeed it is only prohibited on you the carrion and the blood and the CONTAMINATED MEAT and what has been legalised by way of - for other than God. Thus whoever is strained without malice and not being deliberate - surely there is no fault on him. Indeed God is forgiving - merciful.

cf http//aididsafar.com/translation.html

O People of The Book, do you expect I should make fresh meat haram, and based on your so claimed rule alone invalidate the inconsistencies? Does that same rule apply to ancient Arabs/Quraish Dialect? Do you believe in part of the Book, and rejects another part of it? That is SO IMMATURE.. come one, you can do better than this.

https//scontent.fkul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552581_2198230923726820_4447633703832649728_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul1-1.fna&oh=59a53aa2c0f3dde9d372008c204344f3&oe=5CCE7557

Let me tell you, do you realize what is the situation?

I believe in THE ORDINARY / MUHKAMAT (FRESH MEAT/PORK IS HALAL) .. based on common sense from verses in the Quran, and corroborative evidences etc. Sunnatullah + Revelation/ALL RELIGIONS + Common Sense/Ordinary Values/Muhkamat.

http//wbldc.in/image/freshpork.png

You believe in THE EXTRAORDINARY / MUTASYAABIHAT (FRESH MEAT/PORK IS HARAM), and based on the inconsistency of interpretations with other verses etc and cherry picking.

Therefore the burdens of proof to believe in the extraordinary rests invariably on the individuals making a claim, not on the critic.

If you want to claim alien and UFO exists, life on Mars, the burden of proof is on you.. not on the critic.

Understand?

Similarly, if you're going to make the EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM "FRESH MEAT" IS HARAM, then you should answer the issue and proof consistency of interpretations etc ... The person making the extraordinary claims bears the burden and prove it's consistency... beyond reasonable doubt.

Say, "This is my "Islam". "Islam" is with proofs and evidences! I, as well as those who follow me, call you towards Allah/Sunnatullah/Law of Nature/EcoLogic/Facts." (1210

How do you answer the issues raised in this thread?

Can you prove consistency / MUHKAMAT?

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
We have settled this issue, quote

I believe in THE ORDINARY / MUHKAMAT (FRESH MEAT/PORK IS HALAL) .. based on common sense from verses in the Quran, and corroborative evidences etc. Sunnatullah + Revelation/ALL RELIGIONS + Common Sense/Ordinary Values/Muhkamat.

Verse 6146 is not a conclusive proof as I have shown you clearly.
Nobody has argued about other fresh meat. we are discvussing "pork is halal" according to your assumption.
DO not claim you hace evidence from 6146.

"Lahm Khinzeer" is in discussion and others have challenged you with the grammar of "Al".
So far I do not see a shred of evidence from you.
Others have said that the word "Lahm" and its derivatives in Qoran have always been used to mean "meat" of animals or fish.
Why are you now claiming evidence?
Your common semnse or mine or anyone else s does not mean evidence.

Please do not not spam the thread with other irrelevant pictures, information philosophy...etc.
Stick to the topic in hand seriously and counter the quiestions/ arguments of those taking part.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

Therefore the burdens of proof to believe in the extraordinary rests invariably on the individuals making a claim, not on the critic.

If you want to claim alien and UFO exists, life on Mars, the burden of proof is on you.. not on the critic.

Understand?

Can you prove consistency / muhkamat?

Where is the proof?

Quote from good logic on Yesterday at 102651 AM

So your list from 6146 is incomplete. You cannot say that pork is not in the list, unless you bring the full list. Is this not simple logic?

according to you that is logical? rotfl

here... where does it say pork?

specific rule..

WE MADE HARAM FOR THE JEWS every animal with an undivided hoof, and in respect of cattle and sheep, We made their fat haram for them, except what is attached to their backs or guts or mixed up with bone. That is how We repaid them for their insolence. And WE CERTAINLY SPEAK THE TRUTH (not the Torah/Bible). (6146)

Simple, and I don't have to waste my time just to prove "pork" was not mentioned in 6146. brickwall

#strawman fallacy
#red herring fallacy

Mahdi_Ibrahim

ELSE

The FOOD (flesh of swine) OF THOSE GIVEN THE BOOK is also halal for you ... anyone who rejects iman (halal foods and flesh of swine), his actions/amal will COME TO NOTHING and in the Next World he will be among the LOSERS. (55)

It is shirk to make haram the flesh of swine

Say "Produce your hadither / witnesses to testify that Allah made this (flesh of swine) haram." If they do testify, DO NOT I'TIQAD WITH THEM and DO NOT FOLLOW the whims and desires of people who deny Our SIGNS, and who do not have iman in the Next World and MAKE OTHERS EQUAL TO THEIR LORD (SHIRK). (6150)

https//scontent.fkul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51505944_2280176428865602_4506007514885652480_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul1-1.fna&oh=2a84c7f2c8addab0b2a6ddf29683036e&oe=5CFED68B

These people of ours have taken LordLaws apart from Him/ Sunnatullah/ Nature/ The Ordinary/ Muhkamat. Why do they not produce a clear argument concerning them? Who could do greater wrong than someone who invents a lie against Allah? (1815)

kaltun

Slm to all,

honesty i find the argument of MI very strong .... so thinking out loud now.....

nowadays the consumption of the pork/swine is alot ===> casualties??
who eats animal that died from old age/sickness ???? i think not many ==> why ?? its harms the body
who is consuming blood ??? vampiers ...hehehe ... but i would think nobody also ==> why ?? its harms the body
who is consuming flesh/meat/animal what is sacrificed to another god ?? ==> dont know who does this, and i dont think this harms the body... but it would harm your mind , and your mind is controlling the body ???

what is an ( halluf)
https//media.discordapp.net/attachments/535398007743709216/540860351504187392/unknown.png

https//www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/w/warthog/

an herbivore... the main question is he chewing his food ??

the question remain if the pig is Haram, will this mean all pig family is haram ??

its very thoughtful when in the past a meat/flesh got bad its Khinzirin... or like MI says alot of foods has his flesh/meat .... like tomato has his flesh ...and its not taste at all to eat rotten tomato....

pork meat is bad
https//www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-pork-bad#section5

pork meat is not that bad

Pork, or ?the other white meat? is high in protein and minerals, and provides numerous cuts like tenderloin to bacon.
One serving of pork has...
thiamine
vitamin B-6 and B-12
potassium
iron
magnesium
A study analyzed the raw values of each product and compared them to the nutritional needs of the body. The fat in pork was found to contain more unsaturated fats than compared to lamb and beef ? meaning more omega-3 fatty acids.

It?s also high in oleic acid, which is a monounsaturated fat that?s readily available for use by the body.

what is better beef or pork
https//www.livestrong.com/article/446740-is-pork-better-than-beef/

why is the explanation of MI that bad ??

some fact for me....
as Quran only beleaver

meaning of salat word has been altered
meaning of sawm word has been altered
meaning of haij word has been altered
we dont live in a sphere spinning earth
jins and humans created and angels are appointed
you dont have to be MUSLIM to get in the heaven...
dead humans cant hear, help you if you call to them ( even the prophets).

Quran tells us regurarly to use our AQL / mind , do selfstudy about the matters

O you who believe! If comes to you a wicked person with information, investigate, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then you become, over what you have done, regretful.

good_logic

Peace Kaltun.
We are only saying Mahdi has no evidence. He is not answering the questions. He is only pasting the same "spam" pictures and sticking to his assumptions.
Since when was "common sense" a proof? We can all use this as proof and call it our common sense.

Answer the questions for him if you think he has proof.
Here are the questions
1- Why did he assume since 6146 does not mention pork, then pork is halal?
6146 does not mention blood or dead animals either. 6146 is a list of additional items forbidden for the Jews as well as other prohibitions not mentioned there and confirmed by Qoran.

2-Why is "LAHM AL-Khinzeer" -contaminated meat?
It does noyt fit the grammar-Al Khinzeer must be a "thing" specific not a description like-contaminated!!!
AlsoLahm- meat- and its derivatives are used in Qoran only in respect to animals and fish. So Al Khinzeer must be an animal or a fish> We know which animal is ALKinzeer in Arabic.

We are saying there is no evidence from Qoran for his assumption .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

Of course there is no evidence when you simply ignore everything, don't answer the issue, busying with #strawman #redherring, and asserting blind/false claims... it's not even a counterargument and contradiction to begin with, but merely prolonged repetition of your nonsense / ad nauseam, 24 pages ... just read few pages back and people can see it clearly who you really are.

#no_educational_values_and_more_on_time_wasting
#burden_of_proof_on_the_extraordinary_claims

good_logic

Peace Mahdi.
Answer the questions then . They are relevant to your assumptions.

You cannot claim Qoran backs up your claim without answering these valid questions.

Or if you do not have answers ,be brave and admit the verses you are quoting do not support your claim.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace,

Slm to all,

honesty i find the argument of MI very strong .... so thinking out loud now.....

Did you read this post?
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610488.msg421531#msg421531

Quote
Already covered
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599591.msg234462#msg234462

The basic conclusion was IF you ignore the form the word is in and Quranic grammar, then yes, you can interpret it the way you imply.

Quote from tanveermd
According to qur'aanic grammar, in the phrases "lahma khinzeerin" or "lahma alkhinzeeri", "khinzeer" CANNOT be an adjective but can only be a noun. This has been discussed numerous times on this forum in the past. Please use the search feature for the relevant threads.

A short explanation is as follows

For "khinzeer" to be an adjective the phrase has to have "AL" before both words or if "AL" is not before both words then both words have to have the same ending of "an" or "un".

For example

"lahmun khinzeerun" or "al-lahma al-khinzeer".

The phrases in al-qur'aan are as follows

"lahma khinzeerin" (6145), and "lahma/lahmu alkhinzeeri" (2173, 53, 16115).

Thus "khinzeer" in those phrases CANNOT be an adjective, and can only mean "pig".

Readers should note that despite thousands of similar usage in Quran, when asked Mahdi failed to bring any examples that follow his made-up grammar rules.

By the way, it's fine to be a maverick when it comes to grammar but it has to have evidence as per Quran.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

Peace Mahdi.
Answer the questions then . They are relevant to your assumptions.

You cannot claim Qoran backs up your claim without answering these valid questions.

Or if you do not have answers ,be brave and admit the verses you are quoting do not support your claim.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

My simplest argument is the first man on Earth knows well that he can eat fresh meat / pork, and not maggoty and stinking meat... even animal know this. that is Common Sense, and it is "Ordinary Claims" (the Muhkamat).

Why would it be evil for believing the "Ordinary Value of Life"? rotfl

You cannot see any inconsistency/nonsense in the creation of the Merciful. (673)

#burden_of_proof_on_the_extraordinary_claims

https//scontent.fkul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41552581_2198230923726820_4447633703832649728_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul1-1.fna&oh=59a53aa2c0f3dde9d372008c204344f3&oe=5CCE7557

(the definition of having iman in the Quran)

But as for those who have clear evidence from their Lord (Sunnatullah . Law of Nature) followed up by a witness from Him (Revelation, Natural Person) — and before it the ordain of Musa came as a model and a mercy (Natural Law . Natural Values) — such people have iman in it (the Quran). Any faction which rejects it is promised the Fire. Be in no doubt about it. It is the Truth from your Lord. But most people have no iman. (1117)

Burden of Proof

Sunnatullah / Law of Nature
Revelation / Natural Person
Natural Law / Natural Life Values 7156-157

= Believe in the Quran

The Quran does backup my claim.

even stupid can make Law (Islam) if the above is irrelevant.

kaltun

ASLM GL

Peace Kaltun.
We are only saying Mahdi has no evidence. He is not answering the questions. He is only pasting the same "spam" pictures and sticking to his assumptions.
Since when was "common sense" a proof? We can all use this as proof and call it our common sense.

Answer the questions for him if you think he has proof.
Here are the questions
1- Why did he assume since 6146 does not mention pork, then pork is halal?
6146 does not mention blood or dead animals either. 6146 is a list of additional items forbidden for the Jews as well as other prohibitions not mentioned there and confirmed by Qoran.

2-Why is "LAHM AL-Khinzeer" -contaminated meat?
It does noyt fit the grammar-Al Khinzeer must be a "thing" specific not a description like-contaminated!!!
AlsoLahm- meat- and its derivatives are used in Qoran only in respect to animals and fish. So Al Khinzeer must be an animal or a fish> We know which animal is ALKinzeer in Arabic.

We are saying there is no evidence from Quran for his assumption .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Aslm Goodlogic,

first ( not proud of it but) my grammar is very poor , so i cant give you your answer from grammatical view....

second , i do not represent Mi nor his "proofs" , what i do is , listen what he says, or what you say, or others here, and again what is he telling make sense ... not that i am saying he is right , this i dont know ...could or not , but i do not close the door and say i am 100% sure , none of us can say we know 100% sure what the Quran tells us , ok we assume some knowledge ...

third meaning of the words are constantly changing .... very simple example... meaning of the word GAY in the begin of 1900 it meant ..HAPPY ... and now

mark my words , after 10 or 20 years from now , the colors of the rainbow gonna belong also to them ( the gay people) its being hijacked ....

so seeing Shaytan does his best to get us in to astray , why is this not thinkable ???

can anyone explain me next question ...

what was first , Quranic grammar- or arabic grammar of today ....

my thoughts are, the arabic grammar of today originates from Quran.. so actually we cant use 100% grammar of today to fit it in the Quran ...

( i am not saying this so but) say in that day, the word for rotten meat/flesh was Khinz eer , and seeing the pig , its bading in mud ( btw this to cool himself since they do not have sweat glands) and they eat even dirt you could say this animal is also khinz eer ?? it could ....

And to those who are Jews We forbade every (animal) with claws, and of the cows and the sheep We forbade to them their fat except what carried their backs or the entrails or what (is) joined with the bone. That (is) their recompense for their rebellion. And indeed, We are truthful. Quran 6146

if i read this i understand this like
forbidden for the "jews" are animal with claws ( preditors like eagle, panther, cat ), the fat of the cow and sheep , except what is between their back ( honestly if i read this ,it could also say what the animal carried) and organs ( entrails) what is connected to the bones ?? due a penalty what they did ..

so this means jews did something what was forbidden and as penalty they doesnt have to eat animals who can be harmful to the body..make this sense ??
Hudan is jews ?? and what is yahudi ( i have to learn sooo much....) , this more like people of the hud ? hudisi ?

ASLM @Wakas,

i read his , i read earlier posts ( even posts from 2005 ) about this issue, this question is asked before and answered before. read the pros and cons .... its up to my what to beleave... and i dont know what to belave ( yet )

all i am saying is , logical thinking there are strong arguments about the post of MI ... can he prove it to you ...NO.. neither before him could not prove it ... or did they ???

btw the quranicgrammar you mentioned , who brought this and how riable is this ???

do not get me wrong , the Quran is more than 1400 years old. if this was properly translated , there would not be so many different interpretations, so again how riable is this

jkhan

Say, "Have you seen what Allah has sent down to you of provision of which you have made lawful and unlawful?" Say, "Has Allah permitted you , or do you invent about Allah ?

As well similar type of verses 16116 anf 587
Read pls carefully... Now the reason I brought these 3 verses is not to attack Mahdi.... But as a commitment to make things clear the severeness of the claim...

Questions to all of us... I mean regardless of those who say pork is prohibited and lawful...
As per above 3 crucial verses.........

Are we allowed to make anything lawful and prohibit specifically food? No...
Has Allah given permission to do so? NO.....
if we do so, will we be inventing / fabricating against God? YES....
If we fabricate such lies and attribute that to Allah saying Allah allowed or prohibited then will we ever succeed 16116? NO....
Do everyone get his serious the matter is if you say you are a believer...
Hmm.... What a dilemma.... Now who is right and who is wrong...
The one who says pork lawful is within Quran and well argued and says it is lawful or confused... Even under confusion is he fabricating as per above verses... Yes...if confusion better silent... But he is not silent and he is convinced.....
Same theory applies to who says it is prohibited... Coz convinced...
But... Is God made this too tough for us to decide... So we all confused? And still God blame us why you make this and that lawful and unlawful.... Can't we escape saying we didn't get it.. We were under confusion... So sory my Lord.. Will that work.????.. While we say we would have made many a people diverted to something wrong and it is a hefty mistake and unforgivable... ... And this subject, saying/accepting a food lawful and unlawful is as serious as shirk which has NO forgiveness.... Coz we fabricate lies against God... Note 6121 SD well...
So who is right..... I advice all believers pls research well and be convinced and decide... Matter cannot be taken for granted simply like prayer is 3 times or 5 times or no prayer.. May be God will forgive... After all they prayed or still believed. But this is a mighty thing in the eyes of God... Prohibiting His laws or making a thing lawful with our own invention....thats MIGHTY....
after all you are not responsible for what another being deceived and followed blindly... .. Every individual is responsible to their head... Use wits and verify quran intellectually...... Mr... Kindly asking.... You answered to all nonsensical questions of some but you never answered the strong questions of many in this thread...like Brandon asked some questions you acted knowingly... Even my explanations... Or NWQ... Or waqas... Anyhow let readers decide their destiny ....
God guide us with what is right ....
If I am not mistaken I have seen only in one website that says pork is allowed which is factzz.wordpress .....such a biased site... People are intelligent if they are true believers, coz God guides the true believers and cannot Go wrong once God guided...

Mahdi_Ibrahim

How could fresh meat is Haram?

There is no consistency in the verses itself...

My simplest argument is the first man on Earth knows well that he can eat fresh meat / pork, and not maggoty and stinking meat... even animal know this. that is Common Sense, and it is "Ordinary Claims" (the Muhkamat).

perhaps this explains everything?

https//scontent.fkul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51580560_2280306078852637_4713762362962739200_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul1-1.fna&oh=2ff5d1aed18dccb0c6b6292601274a4c&oe=5CF05370

since many believe in some part of the Quran and reject another part of it... VERSE 1117.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

The basic conclusion was IF you ignore the form the word is in and Quranic grammar, then yes, you can interpret it the way you imply.

but that's not the interpretation methodology from the Quran...

We (Way of Allah . Sunnatullah . Natural . Logical . Universal . Common Sense . Consistency) are responsible for its interpretation.(7519)

ELSE, shirk.

(the definition of having iman in the Quran)

But as for those who have clear evidence from their Lord (Sunnatullah . Law of Nature) followed up by a witness from Him (Revelation, Natural Person) — and before it the ordain of Musa came as a model and a mercy (Natural Law . Natural Values) — such people have iman in it (the Quran). Any faction which rejects it is promised the Fire. Be in no doubt about it. It is the Truth from your Lord. But most people have no iman. (1117)

Burden of Proof

Sunnatullah / Law of Nature
Revelation / Natural Person
Natural Law / Natural Life Values 7156-157

= Believe in the Quran

ie. Half Truth = Whole Lies.

On that Day, We shall ask Hell, Are you now full? Hell will answer, Are there any more? (5030)

Whose word is truer than Allah's? (487)

bagyane

How could fresh meat is Haram?

What of the meat of animal mentioned 6/146 were they forbidden because they were not fresh?

Mahdi_Ibrahim

What of the meat of animal mentioned 6/146 were they forbidden because they were not fresh?

It says nothing about pork.

Wakas

all i am saying is , logical thinking there are strong arguments about the post of MI ... can he prove it to you ...NO.. neither before him could not prove it ... or did they ???

btw the quranicgrammar you mentioned , who brought this and how riable is this ???

When it comes to proving something, we have to look at the evidence for/against, then decide what to believe.

You ask who brought Quranic grammar? The answer is simple the author of Quran. The Quran itself in the way it uses its words, nouns/verbs/prepositions, word order etc etc.

You ask how reliable is this. Well in this case I asked MI for examples from Quran which support his view. He didn't come up with any despite having thousands to choose from.

Mahdi_Ibrahim

QXPvi (THE QUR&#039AN AS IT EXPLAINS ITSELF, 6th edition) February 2015
By Dr. Shabbir Ahmed, Florida

The First Dilemma The Persian ?Imams? received strong support from the Abbasid monarchs for political reasons. While the text of the Qur&#039an remained untouched, its words and terminology were, gradually, given alien, culturally and politically biased meanings to the extent that they lost the splendor and the magnificence so beautifully conveyed in the original, revealed Arabic ‘Mubeen&#039. Simply put, the Qur&#039anic terms were dressed up with the erroneous philosophies prevalent in the Zoroastrian culture of Persia, and they became widely accepted even among the Arabs! This staggering tragedy explains why, how and where, even the Arabic speaking people lose their touch with the Qur&#039an!

Now The Third Dilemma The later generations of translators and commentators have uncritically followed the men of old and this tendency has been consistently taking its noxious toll. They have been taking the Ajami Arabic as the proper language of the Qur&#039an. By Ajami Arabic I mean applying the Zoro-Persian or any alien concepts to the Arabic words and terms of the Qur&#039an.

http//drshabbir.com/library/qxp_vi_english.pdf