The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?
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Whatever the scientific explanation, I still have the opinion that we have to have free will. Otherwise we cannot be judged fairly in the afterlife.
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Whatever the scientific explanation, I still have the opinion that we have to have free will. Otherwise we cannot be judged fairly in the afterlife.
Never mind afterlife. Without free will we can't be fairly juddged in this life. For example forced confessions are unacceptable almost all European countries...
Regards,
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Peace
My understanding of this topic is that God is in fact sitting down in front of his DVD player, he just put a disk in and he's enjoying the show. Let me explain. We do have free will, we can do whatever we want in making any decision, but God knows what that decision is going to be, becuase he's watched this DVD already... wink
Does this sound alright, or do I need a coffee?
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love it Natu,
Also, I would like to add this scenario
Just as the God has the will to let us alone and watch (which means that our choices are, in effect, his "will" as well), the God also has the will to step in and guide, persuade, disuade, misguide, us as well. Although I cannot produce any proof right now (maybe because I can't remember the verses exactly) perhaps disuasion and misguidance comes after we have made a choice to disbelieve. I DO remember reading a verse that stated that only the God guides people towards Himself...but perhaps my interpretation is wrong.
Anyway, in the end it is all about the God What the God wants is what the God gets...period. He owes NOTHING to us ( and I think it is arrogant of us to think so). We are subject to his will...whether it is as passive spectator (as Natu pointed out) or it is more aggressive (where we are "unwilling" subjects to his "will" i.e. our "will" may be temporarily taken away).
The God does what the God pleases....
What do you guys think?
And lets remember that time (past, present, and future) is a function of earth...which is why Natu's explanation of the God knowing our choices before we know them makes sense.
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Salam Natu n sister Salikah
My understanding of this topic is that God is in fact sitting down in front of his DVD player, he just put a disk in and he's enjoying the show. Let me explain. We do have free will, we can do whatever we want in making any decision, but God knows what that decision is going to be, becuase he's watched this DVD already... wink
Does this sound alright, or do I need a coffee?
Khi- Well actually i wldnt use the DVD example since tht wld make our decisions deterministic which they r not. They arise from infinity which lies within the infinity of GOD. The rest is fine tht GOD knows in advance wht decisions we r going 2 make n He Wills tht we make them. But if a person chooses the wrong path then GOD does not guide him anymore. N if he chooses the right path GOD guides him.
To sister Salikah,
The phrase 'yahdi mayee yashaa' cld mean both 'guides whomever He wills' n also 'guides WHOEVER wills' in which i take the latter meaning 4 GOD only guides those who want His guidance. The others He leaves in error. GOD Bless! -
Salam,
I strongly believe we have no free will. Did God ask us if we want to be created/not or did God go ahead and create us because God does whatever God wills?
I am not against God by saying God is unjust - of course not. God made us and God doesn't need our permission for anything. But since we are to stand up against truth even against ourselves, this is the truth there is no free will.
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Salam dear sister,
I strongly believe we have no free will. Did God ask us if we want to be created/not or did God go ahead and create us because God does whatever God wills?
Khi- This has nothing 2 do with freedom of choice in our decisions. We can choose whether we want 2 take the right or the wrong path otherwise whts the pt of the test?
I am not against God by saying God is unjust - of course not. God made us and God doesn't need our permission for anything. But since we are to stand up against truth even against ourselves, this is the truth there is no free will.
Khi- There surely is a freedom of choice in tht we can choose whether we wanna be believers or not. GOD Himself says in the Quran tht He does not wrong anyone but tht they wrong THEMSELVES. GOD Bless!
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Well, certainly in making our decisions we have a free will either do right or wrong. God does not do anything wrong. but the ultimate free will as to wheather/not we wanted to be on this earth, I stand by my first point that there is no free will to that.
Khi- Salam. I believe we came on this earth coz we made a mistake coz of which we were thrown out of the garden(jannat). GOD Bless!
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God creates the illusion we call reality frame by frame in our brain, just like a computer game. Nothing happens without his acceptance. Wich means, if i want to take a step forwards, my souls computer (the brain) will make a request and send to "the mainframe server", that will then reply with the corresponding action. As the server is rendering billions of frames ahead, it has calculated all possible outcomes of any request i could possibly make, it acces the backbuffer, and then serve the one corresponding with my current request.
If you look at it like this, it altso answers any question of heaven and hell. As we only see, feel, experience, frame by frame, what God wants us to, that illusion can be anything. Do good, and God will create an illusion that will please you for as long as he wishes, or the opposite. Both will feel as real as this illusion.
you think you have a body? think again, you only think that you do.
Peace
Noah -
you think you have a body? think again, you only think that you do.
Noah, you must then believe in the famous quote by a philoshoper you said exactly the same thing you did "I doubt, therefore I am". Guess who said it? ?
I honestly have no idea who said that. Never been much into philosphers ops
peace
Noah -
Altso, i have to say that this is merely philosophy on its own. None of us can give an answer to this, rather we can have our own ideas as to what it is. Does that bring us closer to an answer? no it doesnt.
But its funPeace
Noah -
Its Rene Descartes who said that. He actually said the exact same thing. He concluded his hands, body everything could be a mere illusion or as he put it the work of an "evil genious". The only way he was sure of his existance was because he doubted his existence. Kind of meaning if I am real, I doubt myself, but if I was fake, who would doubt oneself?
He actually used this theory to prove God's existance by saying that if in his imagination there exists something very perfect (i.e. God), then in reality it must exist because without reality, he wouldn't even have been able to percieve such a thing. But sadly, people used his words to prove that there is no God (quite ironic).
Read more about Descaretes here although I am no big fan of the guy. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes
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peace
Right. time to reboot my brain. I must be doing something wrong if im thinking down that line, even though i didnt know that i was.
To call God an evil genius, is completely out of the line. what was i thinking.
Jesuit College...
Bad news.
Oh "#?% cry
Back to the beginning....once more sigh
Regards
Noah -
yes but the problem is. If my pea sized, ill informed, unread, simpleton brain can come up with an explanation on anything about God, or what he does that remotely makes any sense. It must be wrong. By default. cry
Peace
Noah -
Peace all.
It seems that God is altso a philospher, and do some serious thinkin about reality. Forgive my humour.
692 Reality, what is the reality?
693 Absolutely, do you know what is the reality?No i dont. So do i know to what degree i have free will? well, actually.. no i dont. Sorry for blabbering my conjecture off on you all. Its just a pet thought.
However
304 The decision before and after is for God, and on that day the believers will rejoice.
So who is making the decisions inbetween?
Regards
Noah -
I'm having issues with the concept of free will. I understand how free will and God's knowledge of what will happen are compatible. Though I have the choice of whether or not to accept God, He ultimately knows what my choice will be.
But this is the thing. When He created my soul, He knew (due to His all-knowing nature) whether I would ultimately accept Him or reject Him. So did He create my soul knowing what the outcome would be? If so, in a sense, then He created me to perform those actions. When He created Iblis, did God know that Iblis would reject Him? If so, then why did He create him? It is true that we have free will, but why couldn't God just create the souls that He knew would accept them of their own free will? Then you wouldn't need Hell at all, just everyone would go to Heaven, but they would still have chosen God.
This problem is even more acute in certain Christian denominations (for instance, many protestant faiths), as they believe that we do not have the choice of whether or not to believe in God. In other words, from the beginning, God chose to save some souls through his grace and not others. They do believe that you have to work on your faith, etc, but they don't see it the way I do. I believe that everyone has the opportunity to be with God in eternity, but some reject him. (In fact, I think that their view is not compatible with a just and loving God. For how could a just God choose to punish those did not have a choice of whether or not to accept Him? This is one of several points in Christian dogma which just don't make sense to me.)
The best explanation I have found thus far is still unsatisfactory. Perhaps, before God created us, He chose not to know what the being He was about to create would ultimately choose. That is, He said, I am going to create a soul, with free will. Once it was created, the soul had been granted free will, and from that point God would know what its ultimate decision would be. But if God had known the soul's decision before He created it, then in a sense the soul would not have free will, since it decision would have been determined before it came into existence.
But I am not sure if this argument is even consistent with God's All-Knowing, All-Powerful nature. Moreover, this argument assumes that it is meaningful to talk about sequencing God's actions when those actions are taking place in a non-physical world. However, clearly God can choose not to do certain things that are in his power, however, so perhaps this is one of those cases? To paraphrase the Qur'an (I can't remember the verse, sorry!), if it had been God's will, all on Earth would have believed. In other words, he will never force us to believe, even though he could if he wanted to.
I hope these ramblings were at least somewhat intelligible. God-willing, He will help make this situation clear for me.
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Hello and Welcome to the forum -)
But this is the thing. When He created my soul, He knew (due to His all-knowing nature) whether I would ultimately accept Him or reject Him. So did He create my soul knowing what the outcome would be? If so, in a sense, then He created me to perform those actions. When He created Iblis, did God know that Iblis would reject Him? If so, then why did He create him? It is true that we have free will, but why couldn't God just create the souls that He knew would accept them of their own free will? Then you wouldn't need Hell at all, just everyone would go to Heaven, but they would still have chosen God.
You have understood the heart of the problem of Free Will and Predestination. Theologians and Philosophers have been debating this for centuries trying to reconcile God's omniscient with Free Will.
This problem is even more acute in certain Christian denominations (for instance, many protestant faiths), as they believe that we do not have the choice of whether or not to believe in God. In other words, from the beginning, God chose to save some souls through his grace and not others. They do believe that you have to work on your faith, etc, but they don't see it the way I do. I believe that everyone has the opportunity to be with God in eternity, but some reject him. (In fact, I think that their view is not compatible with a just and loving God. For how could a just God choose to punish those did not have a choice of whether or not to accept Him? This is one of several points in Christian dogma which just don't make sense to me.)
Without Free Will we are not responisible for our actions.
The best explanation I have found thus far is still unsatisfactory. Perhaps, before God created us, He chose not to know what the being He was about to create would ultimately choose. That is, He said, I am going to create a soul, with free will. Once it was created, the soul had been granted free will, and from that point God would know what its ultimate decision would be. But if God had known the soul's decision before He created it, then in a sense the soul would not have free will, since it decision would have been determined before it came into existence.
I think in this way too. When God gave us Free Will, he choose to "limit" his omniscience. Perhaps this where the Primal Fall comes from. We fell because our Free Will made us lose the connection with the Divine. That is why the Great Sages, Seers, Prophets and Mystics spoke of the souls loneliness and its yearning to return to the Creator. They spoke of souls dislocation in this world, its confusion and its emptiness in a world disconnected from God.
Can God limit "his" omniscience in this way? Nature of Free Will means that God has to limit his omniscience for Free Will to work...
Regards,