quran434.com

Wakas

peace burhan,

What can I say your post made me laugh.

Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again...

DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical
DRB + real object directly => meaning is always physical contact.
DRB + real object indirectly => Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

You can use the article at Quran434.com (like you did in your original post) and cut & paste which ones/types fall into which category.

The verse doesn't tell us what he is supposed to hit. Whether you take it to mean physical hitting or metaphor doesn't really change my argument.

Quote from article ** Arabic bihi (with it). "hi" refers to a masculine and the closest preceding masculine is the cool spring.

If you disagree/agree, please provide your translation of the relevant part in 3844 "...khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi..."

imrankhawaja

Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

exvellent bro, bravo

THIS method appears hard/tough/timetaking thats y its obvious to see why lot of people are unaware about a basic method of crosscheck for checing the credibilty of any calim what they are making. ( as per scholarly rules of text)

burhan

Note you had to clarify/correct yourself, but I'm afraid you will have to correct/clarify yourself again

You asked for a clarification which I duly provided. Now you are disparaging me for doing the very thing you asked me to do. The more pride you show the harder it will be for you to change your mind.

CAT-1 is self-evident. You can't physically hit an abstract object, which is why I didn't explicitly mention it. We know the meaning of those verses can never be physical contact. So whether the sentences use prepositions or a different verb form is irrelevant. These verses can be completely ignored from the analysis.

That leaves with us with real objects. What we should look at is how does DRB behave when it is used with a real object directly (CAT-2) and with a preposition (CAT-3).

Since you have now created 3 categories you will have to tell us which category each verse falls into so we can test the consistency of your view.

I would have thought it's pretty obvious what the categories are based on the definitions. Abstract objects = CAT-1,
Real objects = CAT-2 & Prepositions = CAT -3.

The categories are descriptive of the Arabic text not prescriptive of my view. It's like asking me to list all even numbers after I tell you an even number is a number that is divisible by 2. We should both have the same list numbers. Anyway, I've done as you asked. Please do check and confirm. We should be in agreement as it's a just sorting exercise.

Your list contains Noun forms of DRB. These shouldn't really be in the list but I have left them in for completeness.

DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth CAT-3
DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path CAT-3
DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable CAT-1
kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
CAT-1
Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years CAT-3
Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum wa thooqoo AAathaba al hareeqi CAT-2
= And if you could but see when the angels/controllers* are taking (unto themselves, i.e. at death) those who reject striking their faces/fronts and backs and (say) "taste the penalty of the fire."

Fakayfa itha tawaffathumu almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum wa adbarahum
= So/then how (will it be) when the angels/controllers* take them (unto themselves, i.e. in death) striking their faces/fronts and their backs?

wal yadribna bi khumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna = and let them draw/cast with their covers over/on their chests CAT-3

wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3

Afanadribu AAankumu al ththikra = Should We withdraw from you the reminder CAT-1
fa duriba baynahum bi soorin = then put forth between them with a wall CAT-3
fa idrib lahum tareeqan fee al bahri yabasan = then indicate for them a dry path in the sea CAT-3
idrib bi AAasaka al bahra fa infalaqa = strike with your staff the sea, then it split/separated CAT-2

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa infajarat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then vented from it (twelve springs)

idrib bi AAasaka al hajara fa inbajasat min hu = strike with your staff the rock, then gushed from it (twelve springs)

idriboohu bi baAAdiha = cite /point out him with some of it (the murder) CAT-2
Wa khuth bi yadika dighthan fa idribbihi wala tahnath = And take with your hand a bundle, then strike with it, and do not break your oath CAT-2
duribat + AAalayhimu = pitched upon them CAT-1
fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity. CAT-2
fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until when you have overcome them CAT-2

1 Fa ragha AAalayhim darban bi al yameeni = then he turned upon them striking with the right hand CAT-2

burhan

Wakas do you need more time or are you no longer interested in discussing this?

Wakas

I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

before
2 categories
DRB+object = hit

latest
3 categories
DRB+object = physical contact

Just pointing this out in case readers missed it. So, let's get to the crux of the matter, and that is your category 2

DRB + abstract object, directly or indirectly => Always non-physical
DRB + real object directly => meaning is always physical contact.
DRB + real object indirectly => Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical.

Using Quran434.com list, you classified the following as Cat2

DRB+object
DRB+preposition+object
DRB+preposition+object
DRB+object

1 DRB+preposition+(object)

Can you clarify why some of the above are not Cat3?

burhan

I was unusually busy recently, and I had to re-read your post several times due to your categorisation. You will note the differences between your original post and your latest position, i.e.

I appreciate your time. Yes it's good that you summarize as we go along. I don't know if you were implying a difference between hit and physical contact. It's the same in my mind. We can use literal and non-literal if you want.

John was hitting Katie (physical contact, literalusage of hit)
John was hitting on Katie (flirting, a non-literal usage of hit)

We can clarify this point later as I need to address your question first before we can move to meanings.

I think there are two questions here that you are asking.

Why I think those verses are in Cat-2?
Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

So the categorization has nothing to do with what I think verse means. Cat-2 is simply all those verses where the DRB takes it's object (Maf'ool bihi) directly without a corresponding object preposition. If I see an object preposition then that verse is Cat-3. The categorization is simply identifying the sentence structure - I'm not implying any meaning at this point. I will give my rationale for why I think all Cat-2 verses are literal, but it's important we understand each other on the sentence structure.

So by definition 6 and 17 are Cat-2 as you agree there is no preposition.

Point 12, 16, 18 also don?t' have an object preposition.

Point 12 - Verse 2663

https//i.ibb.co/xGCNfvm/Point-12-C26-V63.png

There is no preposition with "the sea". "the sea" is the Maf?ool bihi - the thing to which DRB is done.
If you are thinking "with your staff" is a preposition that's wrong as well. "with your staff" is not the Maf?ool bihi of the verb DRB.
If the phrase was "Min al bahra" from the sea, then yes "Min" would be a preposition.

Point 16 - Verse 812

https//i.ibb.co/yy0Cyzy/Point-16-C8-V12.png

This is in two parts. The first part the object "the necks" has no preposition. The second part does have a preposition "from them" for the object "every fingertip". So the first part is Cat-2 and the second part is Cat-3.

Point 18 - Verse 3793

https//i.ibb.co/NTB3KbM/Point-18-C37-V93.png

Here we have the noun form. The preposition "upon" in "upon them" goes with the verb "Then he turned".
There is no object preposition connecting Darban to it's Maf'ool bihi.

I hope we can now have agreement on the categorization. You might need to check all my Cat-3 again to make sure that there is definitely a preposition.

I think you already agree with Cat-1.

Wakas

Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 4357?

burhan

Thanks for clarifying your categorisation. Which category for 4357?

Same, Cat-1. The maf'ool bihi is the example of Son-of-Mary - that's an abstract thing.

For example if I say "I like Wakas's ideas." that doesn't mean I like you it means I like your ideas.

Note it's in the passive voice, so there is no doer of DRB. So it can't mean something silly like Son-of-Mary hit the example etc.

The translation (in passive voice) here would be When the Son-of-Mary example was cited, your people laughed about it.

Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

8 ) wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna = and let them not strike/stamp/move with their feet CAT-3

It's intransitive so no object is required. I would accept your objection as it doesn't fit in any category.

Wakas

Re 4357
I asked those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I when I wrote my article about this verse and this is what they said which I wrote on Quran434.com

In 4357 Jesus is the second object of the verb DuRiBa, and in this verse it is in the perfect passive form meaning the object received the action expressed in the verb, i.e. Jesus received DRB, i.e. Jesus was put/shown forth / cited/indicated (as an example) by those disputing. In 4357 "mathala" could be considered an adverbial accusative that names or modifies the action of the verb. So the type of "darab" of the object "Jesus" is that of an "example".

Also, I'm not convinced it would go into the abstract category but I guess that could be disputed.

Also I'd like to correct Point 8 ) to CAT-2 as there is no preposition or rather there is no object.

That would make it consistent with your categorisation of (14) 3844. However, I agree it doesn't quite fit into any category.

So the following are your Cat2 (in addition to 434)

6), 12), 13), 16) 1st part, 17), 1

8 ), 14) = Cat2 / not any category

Why those verses mean physical hit/literal?

I assume you have read my analysis of the above verses and the various issues surrounding them, so yes now we can move onto why you think they mean physical hit (bearing in mind the objections I've raised on Quran434.com).

burhan

ok great. So to summarize we agree

CAT-1
As above but 4357 is disputed.
We agree the meaning in those by definition is non-literal, as the object of DRB is abstract.

CAT-2
6), 8 )* 12), 13), 14)* 16) 1st part, 17), 1

*or no category

We agree no object preposition is present but meaning not decided.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

Obviously we can both mistakes, so these can be corrected or disputed with good will.

I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal 9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s )

What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

Wakas

When I imply agreement with your categorisation I don't mean that's how I think they should be categorised. I am just agreeing with your categorisation (based on your own criteria). Just clarifying.

CAT-3, as above
We agree all those verses have an object preposition and the meaning is non-literal.

I do not necessarily agree. Previously you said this about Cat3 "Prepositions or context determine the meaning but it's usually non-physical." But I dont think we need to get into that right now and we should focus on your Cat2.

I have read your views on Cat-2. I found them very subjective and in some places you didn't seem to be convinced yourself.

It's fairly rare to be able to prove a word in Quran can only mean one thing and nothing else.

Can I ask you score/grade each point in Cat-2 from 0 to 9. Where 0=100% literal 9=100% non-literal. Don't make them all 9s
What I will do then is to create a separate thread for each point, starting with the least contentious.

I dont think grading is helpful, and we should definitely keep the discussion in one thread. I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.

e.g.
6) ,

If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.

Reference
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part1

burhan

With the grading I was trying to establish a baseline. I don't want to strawman your arguments so it's important that I understand exactly what you are trying to say in your article.

The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?

In your article you say;

It has been shown that there is not one clear occurrence in The Quran in which "beat" is the meaning of DRB.

which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.

But then you say;

The only verses in which the preposition "bi" is used with DRB are 2431, 5713, 2663,
260, 7160, 273, 3844, 3793, and in all these occurrences the meaning is a
literal/physical usage

which made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier. I hope you can see my issue here.

If there isn't a criteria i.e. for you DRB never ever means hit/strike then discussing it's usage in the Quran is pointless. We'd then have to get into a discussion of how DRB was used and understood in pre-islamic texts and why today it's literal meaning is or isn't hit/strike.

So to summarize;

• Is the literal meaning of DRB hit/strike as defined in the first paragraph of http//lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/15_D/028_Drb.html

• If yes, then what is the criteria for DRB to convey a literal meaning in sentence. Please give examples of such sentences (they don't have to be Quranic verses)

• If no i.e. the literal meaning of DRB was never hit/strike and dictionaries are incorrect, then please provide your evidence of this change in etymology.

I hope these discussions aren't annoying and that I'm bring something of value.

Wakas

The first question I have is what is the criteria for you to accept that DRB is being used literally? What does your ideal literal sentence look like?

When the usage fits like a glove, i.e. there are no logical/practical/cross-reference/grammar/etc problems. I've accepted it can mean hit/strike in Quran, as discussed at Quran434.com

In your article you say;
which made me think that, for you, there is no criteria where DRB can have a literal meaning. In-fact you question the literal meaning of DRB being hit/strike, you say it's "to put/show forth". So the non-literal meaning be would hit/strike.

But then you say;
which made me think, okay, there is a criteria, but it contradicts what you said earlier.

There is no contradiction. Simplified, I'm saying

There is no clear occurrence of DRB meaning "beat".
When used with the preposition "bi" it indicates a physical usage (including hit/strike).

Please note there is a difference between "hit/strike" and "beat", as also mentioned in Lane.

My view is discussed in detail at Quran434.com. This thread is about testing YOUR view (and consequently your objections to Quran434.com's interpretation). So, let us test YOUR view, and once tested, you/I/readers can weigh up the evidence and see which meaning fits best. Hence what I wrote

I think what will be more helpful is if we take one at a time and I can provide a brief summary of the strongest points which go against the literal/physical understanding. You can then respond.

e.g.
6) ,

If the object is real and the hitting is literal/physical (i.e. real) then this means it would be measurable/observable in some way but it isn't. Thus, such an understanding results in an empirical/logical fail.

There is no supporting evidence in Quran that I'm aware of that supports physical hitting in these verses and all the evidence in Quran that I'm aware of goes against such an understanding.

kaltun

Slm ,

i read this thread , again and again ....probably due my language bariere i don't understand this discussion....

summarizing

Burhan
4.34 DRB is hitting ... ? even if the couples are/were gays ( man) ?

Wakas
4.34 DRB is "to put/show forth"

i dont get it , why as an Human being with the love of God/Allah , you hit a person to correct him/her ??? even some animals dont learn from hitting.
...

we humans can communicate ( ahum the tools are there, if you cant use it, thats a whole different story ) .., Allah tought our speech ....

sorry i looking to this very black and white .....

imrankhawaja

Slm ,

i read this thread , again and again ....probably due my language bariere i don't understand this discussion....

TRUE.

surverys shows the weakest minds are gifted to believers of flat earth lmao.

and there is an example in book the weakest house is the house of spider only if u can undertand?

kaltun

TRUE.

surverys shows the weakest minds are gifted to believers of flat earth lmao.

and there is an example in book the weakest house is the house of spider only if u can undertand?

SLM IM

just wow ... not reacting on my logical explanation but at my short fall of understanding... wow..., this way you hope i will do what ... ?? stop with replying .. to get me angry .. what is the purpose confused

as you can see on my writings , i am no hero on grammar ... i have to do my best to understand it... not due my intelligent , but due language .... i am set as a logical person , i mean with this , it has to be logical to me to inderstand it....

please enlight me why Allah mentioned the house of spider is the weakest of house ??

sinds we quote Quran here i have one for you also , pls ponder and reflect it to yourself

O you who believe! (Let) not ridicule a people (another) people, perhaps that they maybe better than them; and (let) not women (other) women perhaps that they maybe better than them. And (do) not insult yourselves and (do) not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name (of) disobedience after the faith. And whoever (does) not repent, then those - they (are) the wrongdoers.

imrankhawaja

surveys shows the WEAKest minds are those who said 2+2=4? ie proven fact = false ===> flat earthers ?

LIVING wonders of UNIQUE minds.

experts are not still unanimous about the reason of that nature how possibily someone can think that unique way.

experts said its difficult to explain ?why? someone can think that way.

i m sharing the surveys about a specific people is it any form of ridicule ?
explain how ? ?experts? are ridicule anyone they are just showing their data generated by random people ?

laugh

Mazhar

Kaltum stated
please enlight me why Allah mentioned the house of spider is the weakest of house ??

The equivalence of those people who have consciously and purposely adopted perceiving for themselves as protectors, benefactors, godfathers other than Allah the Exalted is

Like the specific She-Spider when she has purposely adopted a house.
Know the fact, the flimsiest of the houses is certainly the adopted-house of specific She-Spider.
Had they but known-realized flimsiness of their choice.

The females of many species place the egg sac on a stalk, wraps leaves about it, attach it to a stone, or cover it with smooth silk before abandoning it. Other females guard the egg sac or carry it either in their jaws or attached to the spinnerets. If a female loses an egg sac, she makes searching movements and may pick up a pebble or a piece of paper and attach it to the spinnerets. (With thanks from Encyclopedia Britannica-Spider}

The female spider despite knowing that the piece of paper does not contain her eggs, she takes it to her "chest". And there has never been dearth of people who keep such papers/traditions/sayings void of any substance/knowledge and proof closely to their chests and are seldom prepared to have a look on that "paper" to evaluate/weigh it if there existed anything of substance wrapped in it.

kaltun

surveys shows the WEAKest minds are those who said 2+2=4? ie proven fact = false ===> flat earthers ?

LIVING wonders of UNIQUE minds.

experts are not still unanimous about the reason of that nature how possibily someone can think that unique way.

experts said its difficult to explain ?why? someone can think that way.

i m sharing the surveys about a specific people is it any form of ridicule ?
explain how ? ?experts? are ridicule anyone they are just showing their data generated by random people ?

laugh

peace bro.

what ever "expert" rotfl

you cant even decently explain the verse to me , if you dont know , pls dont mentioned it , this says alot of your personality ...

you have 0% fact in your hand , yet you call it fact ....

pls dont hijack this post with belittling me.

my apologizes to burhan and Wakas. is shall not post offtopic again.

kaltun

The equivalence of those people who have consciously and purposely adopted perceiving for themselves as protectors, benefactors, godfathers other than Allah the Exalted is

Like the specific She-Spider when she has purposely adopted a house.
Know the fact, the flimsiest of the houses is certainly the adopted-house of specific She-Spider.
Had they but known-realized flimsiness of their choice.

The females of many species place the egg sac on a stalk, wraps leaves about it, attach it to a stone, or cover it with smooth silk before abandoning it. Other females guard the egg sac or carry it either in their jaws or attached to the spinnerets. If a female loses an egg sac, she makes searching movements and may pick up a pebble or a piece of paper and attach it to the spinnerets. (With thanks from Encyclopedia Britannica-Spider}

The female spider despite knowing that the piece of paper does not contain her eggs, she takes it to her "chest". And there has never been dearth of people who keep such papers/traditions/sayings void of any substance/knowledge and proof closely to their chests and are seldom prepared to have a look on that "paper" to evaluate/weigh it if there existed anything of substance wrapped in it.

SLM Mazhar ,

thank you , for this , i read this before here , and also eating the male has to do with weak family ....

btw brother Mazhar can you also react to post
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610529.msg422760#msg422760