quran434.com

Wakas

peace burhan,

Thank you for your reply.

Again you are shifting the burden of proof. It is you who is making the claim that the established translations of 850 & 472 create a contradiction.

I never once used the word "contradiction" in my analysis of these verses.
I have already laid out my view of X and evidence for X. You are saying it's Y. Well, let's examine your evidence for Y, so we can compare to see which option fits best.

On the contrary the Quran hints DOJ is not the only punishment. It may not apply to everyone but there is a punishment before that (5247), their souls are taken violently (791) and they will be exposed to the fire day and night (4046). Noah's people were sent to the fire before DOJ (7125).

5245-47 it seems "duna" commonly means "other than"
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=dwn#(52475)

791 says nothing about malaika nor souls

4046 doesn't say before, and likely refers to the greatest punishment they will get.

7125 is probably the best counter-example you have, although some take it as, quote Asad "Lit., "and were made to enter the fire" - the past tense indicating the inevitability of the suffering yet to come (Zamakhshari).".

You've just quoted Asad verbatim. If you had paraphrased and somehow made a connection to your translation then it would have been helpful. His translation doesn't agree with yours.

His main objection coincides with mine. I happen to think I improved upon his translation by connecting the dots better according to the Arabic, which I discuss.

For 273 Can you tell me first which verses logically contradict it and then which verses contradict it theologically, or do you just have a problem with the sentence structure.

I have already discussed what verses, please re-read.

This is a baseless claim and not consistent with the rest of the Quran. Using Idh....

Anyone can read the context for themselves and see each is a self-contained story, separated by idh. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why these lessons are connected. Is your view that after slaughtering the cow, a murder occurred in close proximity to the dead cow and those disputing about it were doing so beside the dead cow and murdered corpse?

The corpse is male and real and that's why a masculine object pronoun is used to denote a literal meaning of DRB
.

Now we come to the crux of the matter. You have inserted a baseless claim into the Arabic to make your rendition work. In Arabic, like probably all languages, a pronoun is used as a reference to something/someone discussed in the past/context. To give any credibility to your claim you will have to provide at least one similar example in Quran wherein it uses a pronoun to clearly refer to an unmentioned object in the past context, i.e. without which the sentence wouldn't make sense.

Further, you will note in my analysis, I point out that if one were to interpret it as you do it doesn't make sense.

Is your translation that God ordered the corpse to cite/point out the murder? Can you give your translation in full please?

I have no idea how anyone can think the above is my view after reading what I wrote. I discuss in detail my understanding. Please re-read.

"cite, point out, assign, indicate..... him with some of it (the murder)"

Noon_waalqalami

peace!

434 wa-iribuhunna/and shuns (ignores) ye them (f/p)

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane
signifies, (S, Msb,) or signifies also, (TA,) and (Msb, TA) so does , (Msb, K, TA,) (assumed tropical He turned away from, avoided, shunned, or left, him, or it; (S * Msb, K * TA; *) namely, a person, (TA,) or a thing.

https//i.postimg.cc/6p6rbyLt/ch4v33-39.jpg

Neptin

With regards to wife beating, I think burhan has a point, at least to an extent. However we look at this verse, wife beating just at least seem a probable interpretation as "separation" or "citing". This alone is problematic due to its implication on the Qur'an as a detailed, unambiguous book.

Now, consider a Muslim in Baghdad in the 10th century where wife beating was norm - provided no injury is caused, how likely is this Muslim to interpret "wa dhribuhunna" as "separate or cite"?

The major impetus to question the wife beating interpretation is contemporary social norm. We've socially evolved to see wife beating as domestic abuse whether it is done with a tooth pick or chew stick and so are driven to re-interpret the verse.

The early Muslims did not have such impetus. This again is problematic as its implies that cultural and generational differences significantly impact interpretation. Which brings us to very crucial questions;

Is an objective reading of the Qur'an possible? Isn't our approach to the Qur'an too one dimensional and bugged with confirmation bias?

imrankhawaja

With regards to wife beating, I think burhan has a point, at least to an extent. However we look at this verse, wife beating just at least seem a probable interpretation as "separation" or "citing". This alone is problematic due to its implication on the Qur'an as a detailed, unambiguous book.

Now, consider a Muslim in Baghdad in the 10th century where wife beating was norm - provided no injury is caused, how likely is this Muslim to interpret "wa dhribuhunna" as "separate or cite"?

The major impetus to question the wife beating interpretation is contemporary social norm. We've socially evolved to see wife beating as domestic abuse whether it is done with a tooth pick or chew stick and so are driven to re-interpret the verse.

The early Muslims did not have such impetus. This again is problematic as its implies that cultural and generational differences significantly impact interpretation. Which brings us to very crucial questions;

Is an objective reading of the Qur'an possible? Isn't our approach to the Qur'an too one dimensional and bugged with confirmation bias?

IMMORALITY always considered as immorality regardless of time/space/tradition.

beating someone in any case is not a solution at all. (apart from self defence)

whatever those stupids were doing in 10th century was wrong and still wrong.
same like so called stupids of isis doing there atm.

We made bullshit traditions for our own advantage at different eras and we changed those traditions when we need a change.

God is not human his laws works like errorless/immaculate.

now we have a list of beating.

parents (beat) their kids
brothes beat their sisters
uncles beats their nephews
teacher beats their students
teacher of Quran(molvee) beat their learners.

i didnt add husband in it due ro a reason.

now in this list what is very very common in muslim asian countries bring more packages of beating here we have another list.

police beat a person upon investigation
police beat a person before investigation.
police beat all those people who lives/resides with criminal.
police beat people like its a GOOD deed rotfl

if u compare that police with the police of uk u feel pity for those who r getting served by those corrupt police officers.

OLDER advantage

whoever is elder by age already got a license of beating someone under his age
(family) people give permission to elders ( freaking hell).

beating by the caretakers of fruit and veg

people who are the so called owners of fruits gardens

kids when try to eat the blessing of God (fruits) they mostly get caught and now trial started for these poor kids lol.

BEATING how and why ?
and then they give the examples of beating by God. they said what if we beat someone as a tradition God does same to immoral people. and God have us permission to beat.

and hence in wars do beat the shit out of enemies rape their womens, steal their wealth, burn down houses. when u ask why u doing this?

they said becoz our God is doing same things what if we do it?

wordly kings forcefully say u to bow down and sujood physically if not then beat them with hunter? why u doing this ?

becoz God is doing same thing of someone dnt prostrate him he will cast him to hellfire and they said u r lucky we are not rhrowing you to fire just beating u lightly lol.

questions is how long this BEAT stupidity will leave impression on people what cause the victims to become hunter one day most of the cases serial killer/rapist is effected by beating of SOMEONE in their childhood.

THE most hateful beating is step father beats to the kids out of jealousy.

good_logic

Peace All.
What is a Muslim to GOD according to Qoran?

If we want to really follow Qoran, then that is the basis on which to start. i.e What does GOD really wants us to do /be like/give an example of/follow/understand from instructions....

So what are the traits of a true believer?
It is only after we answer these basic questions -About how to be/behave as a human according to the one who created us-
that we can really move forward with Qoran.

GOD talks to all sorts of people in Qoran- Ya Ayuha? believer, hypocrite, disbeliever, waverer, ...etc-.

So it depends who we are and what we strive to be ? Qoran caters for all ,it can even be ignored all together .It is there to be taken by anyone who wants to make of it as they please or leave it be.

So I will rephrase my question of 434 as follows
What should a true believer in Qoran take from this verse? To beat the wife? Really?

Then we should go through the traits of what a believer is and see, it will contradicts it for sure.
First the verse is giving options ? Should a true believer go beyond the second option?

For me the verse that settles most things is this one
"Ittabihu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaikum Min Rabbikum"---Follow the BEST PATH instructed/revealed to you by your Lord-
So what is the best option in the verse? To beat the wife?
Of course some will say "But Qoran says beat them", Why does Qoran even mention "DRB" knowing that some people will take it as "beat the wife"?
Exactly my point, which people are we talking about? The true believer of Qoran?

...And so on about many "hot potato" issues that people are not comfortable with in Qoran.
What ever it may mean ,it should not come to it if the verse options are followed with sincerity. Try it in real life and see for yourself. As a true believer, you may even prevent the situation arising in 434 and there is no need for any of it!!!

Now that does not mean we should ignore the interpretation of the word "drb", by allmeans find out.
But if I can make sure it should not apply to me by "choosing the best option" and trying my best to make it work with all concerned it helps.
Anyway, Qoran caters for all.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Neptin