quran434.com

Neptin

Every generation of humans looks at the previous and is horrified by some of the accepted norms. The next generation will look at some of our actions that we think are in accordance with the Quran and will be horrified. They will then have to reinterpret.

When slavery was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When misogyny was acceptable the Quran did not contradict it.
When homosexuality was a sin the Quran did not contradict it. Now that we are becoming more acceptable of it we are seeing the new interpretations.
One day people will claim Quran was a champion of gay rights just as it is now a champion of women's rights.
Tomorrow, we will take a different view on another topic and Quranists will rush out with new translations and claim 2019 Quranists had it wrong.

Neptin, sadly no one here will see your point.

Not bad. But the writing is on the wall. Until few months ago, I thought my own interpretation was right, unbiased and as objective as it could get. I was an advocate of Islamic Reform(I still am, only less so), because I thought we could read the Qur'an objectively, recover and spread the pristine, progressive message that traditionalists have distorted or buried.

Believers are being addressed, believers in general, females and males. It is believing people who is being addressed, not males. Look carefully at the pronouns, males are mentionned as third person masculine plural, just as women who are mentionned as third person feminine plural, but the addressee is second person plural retorical gender, that is, inclusive gender, the second person generic plual is addressed just as in previous ayas and just as in the following ayas. At no time is the addressee changed, beliebers in general are addressed all along.

huruf, the verse won't work that way. It is dealing with marital issues that is still between the husband and wife. The believers only intervene in the next verse. The believers do not forsake the women in bed, unless they are her husband.

The second person plural pronoun works for men as well and just because in the early part of the verse the third person masculine pronoun was used doesn't mean in the latter part second person plural can't apply. Your argument would be stronger if the entire verse was one long sentence, rather than multiple sentence broken apart with punctuation.

Actually I can't bear what's being discussed here by few supporting hitting...

Take the two verses 434 and 4128 ...
If a woman says my husband is aggressive and hitting me so I need divorce as per 4128 ... Then husband can say in 434 it is allowed for me to hit her... Pls stop this nonsense... Common sense is vest to understand any book what's written in it...

Pls everyone don't overcook this topic... Without your knowledge some may take what you say as advice and hit wife... Don't be part of violence by instructing with lack of knowledge....
God guard all beliving men from this mean task of hitting wives... brickwall elektro

Peace jkhan.

I've made it clear that I prefer the 'separate' or 'cite' interpretation, so where do you get the impression that I condone hitting wives?

Your exegesis is similar to goodlogic and I commend you both. But I'm afraid it won't amount to anything. Wife beating, provided no physical injury is caused - is justifiable to some people and they won't think twice about the traditional interpretation of 434.

jkhan

Tehre are no husbands or wives in the aya. There are males, en general, women in general, and ten there are some women respecting which the community may fear something, not the husbands.

Women exist regardles whether yhere is a husbando or there is not.

This mentalisty is so self-male centered that if women are mentionned at all it must from the point of view that they belong to some man.

This is very deressing and unQura'nic. You ll are forbidding the Qur'an to speak of women without belonging to a male. The Qur'an does not mention any particular man or men regarding those women about which the ommunity may fer something.

What about poor women which may have children and o support and may resot to prostitution?

Oh but in islam there is no prostitution. Everything is perfect, it has always been perfect and the only thing that can be feared from women or for womn is that they may not please their husband owners.

DEPRESSING

Salaam

Peace...
Are you sure what you say in your first para.....
Are you losing your memory with time... I wonder...
How come one share bed ?... How come God orders not to share bed....
Can we keep a women from sharing bed before marriage..... Lol....

huruf

No Neptin, be thourough. The addresse is second person plural retoric gender which goes back to the "ya ayyuha alldhina amanu" in aya 29. An there is not mention whatsoever of husbands or wives or any such relationshipp, if you see husbands or wives in the aya but do not see the addresse, I cannot see any use inyour reading th Qura'n, it is as good if one makes it up straighy as one pleases. There are third person masculine plural which stand for males and third person femimine plural which stand for women, not husbands o wives.

Teh rest of your message I have not read. Just the start is too depressing ofr me to carry on any further.

I really do nto hold much hope for any renewal of qura'nic islam in "quranists" circles. A certain stage hs been reached where everybody seems to be as immovilist as anybody has ever been. This far, not more, beyond, like in the world charts of the 14th century "there be monsters".

I still look some posts because one never knows where one might come accross something that may lead to some interesting work, but really like int he gospels one feels like the sentence "let the dead bury their dead".

Salaam

good_logic

Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone? This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions

Why do we need any agreement from others on what we understand through our own effort of the book?

Why do we need to "force" our understanding of the book on others?

Why do we need to read the book over and over again and still find new information on it?

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Speaking for myself, I have known this book since late 1990 s , I have skimmed it for years . I took it seriously since 2009/2010 and I am amazed at how little I know about it now.
Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less difficult?

Brothers Burhan and Neptin, I have been there and understand your concern and take on Qoran, but I disagree that the book itself is the issue. People s take on it is the issue.

Of course the basic of try our best to be good humans , do good deeds and have good morals is crystal clear in it. The minimum requirement for GOD s approval.
But the devil is in all the other details. I mean the force that is driving the majority behind this mystery.
Of course I never exclude myself from those who may deluded.
This is ongoing brothers and sisters and it will carry on along the line until GOD puts the stop sign on that day.
Happy discussions.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

hawk99

Peace All.
It is not by coincidence that we are discussing Qoran and having disagreements and wide views about it.
Nor it is just this generation that is doing so. History is littered with thousands of books about this book that differ and argue and....Hundreds of sects have been trying to enforce their understanding on others but the analysis of the book continues...

So why is Qoran not straight forward to some, an enigma for others, old fables to another group, a miracle to... and so on...?

What is it about the book that keeps generation after generation searching its meaning and still finding room for improvement/still disagreeing most of its contents?
What is it about the book that keeps surprising many about its secrets?
Don t you find this odd everyone? This book keeps advertising itself in a new way to each generation why?

Then there are these other types of questions

Burhan, Neptin, brothers and sisters ,what we are doing here is normal as far as Qoran is concerned.

Some see this book with a lot of issues,some follow others understanding on it, some want to really understand this book by themselves and are giving it the benefit of a doubt, some want to work on their own issues befiore they can really tackle understanding this book properly, some believe this book is from GOD and our standard of understanding needs evolving and help from the author before we can grasp it, some do not care about the book...and so on...

There is no doubt that the book is a puzzle ,a wonder puzzle that needs "something" to unlock its secrets,if we ever get to unlock all its secrets.

Why can t this book be straight forward like an instruction manual or a novel? I mean less difficult?

GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Allah says many are lead astray by the use of examples (mathalan).

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito
or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the
truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did
Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides
many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,

explains the perspective one should take.

It is He who has sent down to you, , the Book; in it are
verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and
others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation ,
they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking
an interpretation . And no one knows its
interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say,
"We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded
except those of understanding.

Here is part of the deen

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or
the west, but righteousness is one who believes in Allah , the
Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in
spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those
who ask , and for freeing slaves; establishes prayer
and gives zakah; fulfill their promise when they promise;
and are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle.
Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the
righteous.

And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that
you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection
and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

we argue about should we beat up the wife? nope

We should not oppress the believer.

How can we separate amicably after acts of violence?

Will abuse bring us closer?

Where is the peace/ tranquility?

We really have no arguments because of the clear verses.
So if someone wants to argue that the earth is flat, or that the flood was
global, or that swine is lawful to eat, or we should attack our wives
they are coming from the speculative perspective of the deen. One
should apply the "metaphorical brakes" and not own such a position,
however, if in regards to speculation if a believer wants to discuss
a topic it is fine as long as the speculative topic is not owned by the
speculator.

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.

Here is why is talking about "separation".
First we talk/chastise one another, then avoid each other then think
about ending it, but before we do 4/35.

And if you fear dissension/discord/separation/dispute/divorce
between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator
from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will
cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted.

peace

imrankhawaja

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify
it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain,
and you are responsible for using them.

Hmm also author tells us about people who are ?metaphorically? blind,deaf,dumb they will not return to the right direction (21.

it included all those people you listed in list specially flat earth believers handshake

u know sometimes i think carefully about flat earth beleivers and apparent question that was coming in my mind from so long i get it (solved) by logic.

i was wondering even after knowing God is truth iblesss refuse to submitt. why?
now after having witnessed some stupids in life i have same question how come someone believe and debate on grass is not green or earth is flat? .

218 is quite logical and experimental.

even if u take them to ISS they will say you comments

1 our eyes cheating us thats y it appear round to us from so (far).
2 nasa mix something in our drinks what make us earth look like massive ball.
3 gravity and other things were programmed in my mind that i m flying and playing balls game and playing with water bubbles.
4 hairs get dressed/makeup before it shows effect of zero g lmao.
5 mathematics is fake becoz only athiest can understand it complexity hahaha rotfl
6 even if u took them to moon they will say it was area 51.

considering all this we can still understand how can a ? metaphorical blind? can exist in this time/space. but we already have them so we have to live with it unfortunately or lucikly stupidity and intelligence is side of same coin walk and exist side by side in a continous process of life cycle.

good_logic

Peace brothers and sisters.
What is at stake here ,I mean in this life?
Our justice system can have loopholes, bias judges, rich people who pay their way out...etc. Our justice system is imperfect.
So often people get away with things ,even murder.

But if you believe Qoran, you know you are accountable to GOD s justice, not ours and will come to find out after studying the message that there are no loopholes, and no excuses.
Try this experiment, if you have not done so already. Imagine you are facing GOD for your accountability. Write a list you could give GOD as a good excuse for not following His instructions/commands.
Here are some questions/statements I wrote in my list
-Why did you create me with only a little knowledge?
-How can I use this little knowledge to tackle your bigger knowledge?
-Why is it my fault since I can never know for certain things beyond my knowledge that I read/see in your message?
-How do I know I am on the right track for salvation since I am using only what you gave me,imperfection?
-Why choose multi meaning words that can be difficult to adapt..?
...Just to give an example,there were many more.

Then start crossing out the excuses that become obvious to you there are not genuine excuses. i.e you know they cannot hold even on our court of law because you know better after you study more.

My excuses started to becopme less and less as my study of Qoran and my hunger for knowledge increased.
This verse was the culprit

"Akadhabtum Bi Aayati"---Did you disbelieve/taken lightly/ taken as a lie...my Aayat---"Wa Lam Tuhitu Biha Ilman"---Without studying/investigating/searching/gaining knowledge...about my Aayat---"Am Mada Kuntum Tafhaloon"---Or what is it you were doing?---.

The point is, we go back to GOD as individuals,not as a groups of sects!!!
We have to make sure as much as we can with the knowledge we possess about every single Aaya.
Each will answer for his/her own case.
GOD bless you.
Peace

imrankhawaja

its a funny story but got moral in it.

a husband beat his women out of these common reasons.

1 she dnt cook good food( sometimes more salt sometime more spice etc).
2 she dnt look after the massive and big family of her inlaws.
3 she refuse to share bed when she tired after hard day of labouring husbands house and family.
4 she ask for the basic rights ( for running a house). if she got no money its mean husband will stay hungry and will beat her why she didnt cook anything.?

list is big but without ?cheating?/immoral factor.

after suffering from all this wife decide to cheat on husband. for the need of satisfying (body/self) and on other words with one cheat she can get multi purposes.

revenge from husband beating.
making impure what suppose to b pure ( like someone else son he will call his son).
satisfaction/food of body called as SEX. as a human need .
she is becoming a cause of husbands insult in society by doing this.
she can become a cause of trouble and in most of the cases the guy she select will beat up the husband easily lmao.

NOW their case is in court.

husband i beat her coz my God give me permisson.
wife i do what he force me to do after struggling a lot. he played his part and i played my part.

whatsoever they do they will end in seperation pemanently.

the BEAT thing only worsen the case.
its impossible if we can get anything GOOD from beating.

so after considering all this a wise man will not listen the shit written anywhere what cause harm more than benefit.

i dnt need grammer to undertand it. or accept it if my grammer force me to accept.
the fear of rejection comes from society and the books also comes from society same like ideas of wife beating etc.

the example above is LAW of applying wrong law to creator.
and said people things about God what god never order.

so God response is happening in disgrace/defetaed/sadness/humilation as a package.
he listen to God but what he get after that ?

so basically it was a wrong call to wrong God.upon recieving that call simply press RED button without any fear.

burhan

Wakas, thanks for taking part in the discussion. I hope everybody found something of value. peace

amin

Cultures differs, beating wife is so common everywhere here, even the opposite of wife beating is common. There can be a long story behind every beating. I never see Quran as law book to take clues for solving the complicated day today problems. The verse can be taken for ones's self advice in case we get a arrogant wife, we can even try solving issues through physical ways after trying other means, but be prepared to get it back at some other time as some other way.

imrankhawaja

every bad and good THING is common in all past/present socities n cultures.

LIE
DISHONESTY
CHEATING
BACKBITTING
BEATING by (husband,wife,in some cases kids lol,teachers,elders,masters).
THEFT
CORRUPTION ( bribes, fakery, frauds, scams etc)
above list is common ?everywhere? in some cases.

Mixing pure milk WITH bacterial tap water ( asian region)
selling expired/fake medicines ( business of death).

this list is common in all third world countries and also in some developed countries.

most shocking wrong doing is business of DEATH.
involved KIDDNAPPING of people and sale their body organs.

tarffic little girls/boys for slavery/prostitution/begging.

in some cases brain washing people for killing innocent with blast ?boom?

the business of selling chemical based drug that cause death like mixing chemicals in heroin/powder/coacine/brownsugar etc.

another THING called virus and the medicine of that virus for business purpose.

The first list is catagorised as minor wrong doing hence common in all socities and some socities dnt even think/consider it as wrong doing. thats the first reason why nations/wrong people fall and other people rise.

Houriya

it is not to relaunch the debate, it is to add another opinion dating from 2004

From the debate below

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7439.90

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7439.100

Peace JM,

/in my opinion, "Waidriboohunna" implies "Waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi" ; like "waohjuroohunna ". In other words, I read this part of the verse as comme "waohjuroohunna waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi"/

The verse 41 illustrates the same structure than "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" in 434

"rijalan katheeran wanisaan" is translated as "many men and women", the word "katheeran" (many) is between "rijalan" (men) and "nisaan" (women). "Many" (katheeran) is for men and women in 41 and I say the same thing for "in bedchamber" (fee almadajiAAi), it is for "waohjuroohunna" and "waidriboohunna" in 434

In the same way for "rijalan katheeran wanisaan" in 41, I translate "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" as "and abandon them and separate / move away/ from them in the bedchamber in 434

In other word, I can say "waohjuroohunna (abandon them) wainfuroohuna (turn away from them) fee almadajiAAi (in bed chamber),

The verbs "Hajara" and "nafara" are not identical but have a common concept the separation

Let us suppose that the verb "daraba" in 434 means "to beat", why to beat them in the bedchamber and not in the living room?
roll

There is no doubt, the quran explains itself.

Marie

Salaam Marie,

Very good explanation !!! Excellent.

I never tried to think about this verse, that way, even if this structure and style is used so many times in the Quran and not just in 41.

Well, so you'd read it "ihjuruhunna + idribuhunna fil madajii'" and this makes sense. Also the verb "daraba + fi" is used in the Quran for travelling as in "darabtum fil ard" or going far away. Did you research this before? "daraba + fi" can be the key for making this verse 100% clear in my mind! Your post made it clear, i just need to authenticate this understanding by researching "daraba + fi + place" to understand how its used in arabic. If you researched this before, pls let me know

God bless

best regards
sabo

Salaam Sabo,

In the following verses the verb "daraba" means to travel, to get out
daraba fee----> 3156; 4101; 7320; 2273

I found only one example in my doctionary "Lisan al3arab" about "daraba+ fi + some thing" and it is a particular case

The following is from my exchange with JM

daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi ay nafara, falam yazal yaltabit wa yanzoo hatta tawwaha AAanhu ma AAalayhi min adatihi wa himlihi

daraba = ضرب

chameau /camel/ (albaAAeer ) = البعير

dans /in/ (fee) = في

ses bagages /its luggage/ (jahazihi ) = ﺟهاﺯه

signifie /means/ (ay) = أي

to turn away (nafara) = ﻧفر

il ne cesse pas /he doesn?t stop/ (falam yazal) = ﻔﻠﻢ ﻳﺯﻞ

donner des coups de pied, des ruades /*to kick, to buck */ (yaltabit ) =ﻟﺒﻃ

ﻨﺯﺍ = sauter /* to jump*/ (yanzoo )

jusqu'? /till/ (hatta) = ﺣﺘﯽ

ﻃﻮﺡ= jeter, ?garer, faire tomber /*to throw, to mislay, to knock */ (tawwaha )

ce qu'il y a sur lui ou sur son dos /*what is on him or on his back */ (AAanhu ma AAalayhi) = ﻋﻧﻩ ﻣﺍ ﻋﻟﻳﻩ

de /of/ (min) = ﻣﻦ

ﺃﺪﺍﺘﻩ = son mat?riel /its equipment/ (adatihi )

ﺤﻤﻟﻩ= son poids, fardeau, chargement /its burden/ (himlihi)

The verb "nafara" which means to move away / turns away is also used on other verses

O you who believe, take your precaution by going out in clusters, or going out all together.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookhuthoo hithrakum fainfiroo thubatinawi infiroo jameeAAan