The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?

unknownuser

you think you have a body? think again, you only think that you do.

Noah, you must then believe in the famous quote by a philoshoper you said exactly the same thing you did "I doubt, therefore I am". Guess who said it? ?

I honestly have no idea who said that. Never been much into philosphers ops

peace
Noah

unknownuser

Altso, i have to say that this is merely philosophy on its own. None of us can give an answer to this, rather we can have our own ideas as to what it is. Does that bring us closer to an answer? no it doesnt.
But its fun

Peace
Noah

Dove

Its Rene Descartes who said that. He actually said the exact same thing. He concluded his hands, body everything could be a mere illusion or as he put it the work of an "evil genious". The only way he was sure of his existance was because he doubted his existence. Kind of meaning if I am real, I doubt myself, but if I was fake, who would doubt oneself?

He actually used this theory to prove God's existance by saying that if in his imagination there exists something very perfect (i.e. God), then in reality it must exist because without reality, he wouldn't even have been able to percieve such a thing. But sadly, people used his words to prove that there is no God (quite ironic).

Read more about Descaretes here although I am no big fan of the guy. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes

unknownuser

peace

Right. time to reboot my brain. I must be doing something wrong if im thinking down that line, even though i didnt know that i was.

To call God an evil genius, is completely out of the line. what was i thinking.

Jesuit College...

Bad news.

Oh "#?% cry

Back to the beginning....once more sigh

Regards
Noah

Dove

no, no, no. Descarte did not call God an evil genious. I don't know if he was referring to the devil/not, but he certainly did not call God that. From what I learned about him, the dude was pretty religous, a chrisitan of course.

unknownuser

yes but the problem is. If my pea sized, ill informed, unread, simpleton brain can come up with an explanation on anything about God, or what he does that remotely makes any sense. It must be wrong. By default. cry

Peace
Noah

unknownuser

Peace all.

It seems that God is altso a philospher, and do some serious thinkin about reality. Forgive my humour.

692 Reality, what is the reality?
693 Absolutely, do you know what is the reality?

No i dont. So do i know to what degree i have free will? well, actually.. no i dont. Sorry for blabbering my conjecture off on you all. Its just a pet thought.

However

304 The decision before and after is for God, and on that day the believers will rejoice.

So who is making the decisions inbetween?

Regards
Noah

geek_girl

I'm having issues with the concept of free will. I understand how free will and God's knowledge of what will happen are compatible. Though I have the choice of whether or not to accept God, He ultimately knows what my choice will be.

But this is the thing. When He created my soul, He knew (due to His all-knowing nature) whether I would ultimately accept Him or reject Him. So did He create my soul knowing what the outcome would be? If so, in a sense, then He created me to perform those actions. When He created Iblis, did God know that Iblis would reject Him? If so, then why did He create him? It is true that we have free will, but why couldn't God just create the souls that He knew would accept them of their own free will? Then you wouldn't need Hell at all, just everyone would go to Heaven, but they would still have chosen God.

This problem is even more acute in certain Christian denominations (for instance, many protestant faiths), as they believe that we do not have the choice of whether or not to believe in God. In other words, from the beginning, God chose to save some souls through his grace and not others. They do believe that you have to work on your faith, etc, but they don't see it the way I do. I believe that everyone has the opportunity to be with God in eternity, but some reject him. (In fact, I think that their view is not compatible with a just and loving God. For how could a just God choose to punish those did not have a choice of whether or not to accept Him? This is one of several points in Christian dogma which just don't make sense to me.)

The best explanation I have found thus far is still unsatisfactory. Perhaps, before God created us, He chose not to know what the being He was about to create would ultimately choose. That is, He said, I am going to create a soul, with free will. Once it was created, the soul had been granted free will, and from that point God would know what its ultimate decision would be. But if God had known the soul's decision before He created it, then in a sense the soul would not have free will, since it decision would have been determined before it came into existence.

But I am not sure if this argument is even consistent with God's All-Knowing, All-Powerful nature. Moreover, this argument assumes that it is meaningful to talk about sequencing God's actions when those actions are taking place in a non-physical world. However, clearly God can choose not to do certain things that are in his power, however, so perhaps this is one of those cases? To paraphrase the Qur'an (I can't remember the verse, sorry!), if it had been God's will, all on Earth would have believed. In other words, he will never force us to believe, even though he could if he wanted to.

I hope these ramblings were at least somewhat intelligible. God-willing, He will help make this situation clear for me.

unknownuser

Hello and Welcome to the forum -)

But this is the thing. When He created my soul, He knew (due to His all-knowing nature) whether I would ultimately accept Him or reject Him. So did He create my soul knowing what the outcome would be? If so, in a sense, then He created me to perform those actions. When He created Iblis, did God know that Iblis would reject Him? If so, then why did He create him? It is true that we have free will, but why couldn't God just create the souls that He knew would accept them of their own free will? Then you wouldn't need Hell at all, just everyone would go to Heaven, but they would still have chosen God.

You have understood the heart of the problem of Free Will and Predestination. Theologians and Philosophers have been debating this for centuries trying to reconcile God's omniscient with Free Will.

This problem is even more acute in certain Christian denominations (for instance, many protestant faiths), as they believe that we do not have the choice of whether or not to believe in God. In other words, from the beginning, God chose to save some souls through his grace and not others. They do believe that you have to work on your faith, etc, but they don't see it the way I do. I believe that everyone has the opportunity to be with God in eternity, but some reject him. (In fact, I think that their view is not compatible with a just and loving God. For how could a just God choose to punish those did not have a choice of whether or not to accept Him? This is one of several points in Christian dogma which just don't make sense to me.)

Without Free Will we are not responisible for our actions.

The best explanation I have found thus far is still unsatisfactory. Perhaps, before God created us, He chose not to know what the being He was about to create would ultimately choose. That is, He said, I am going to create a soul, with free will. Once it was created, the soul had been granted free will, and from that point God would know what its ultimate decision would be. But if God had known the soul's decision before He created it, then in a sense the soul would not have free will, since it decision would have been determined before it came into existence.

I think in this way too. When God gave us Free Will, he choose to "limit" his omniscience. Perhaps this where the Primal Fall comes from. We fell because our Free Will made us lose the connection with the Divine. That is why the Great Sages, Seers, Prophets and Mystics spoke of the souls loneliness and its yearning to return to the Creator. They spoke of souls dislocation in this world, its confusion and its emptiness in a world disconnected from God.

Can God limit "his" omniscience in this way? Nature of Free Will means that God has to limit his omniscience for Free Will to work...

Regards,

Fahad1

salam.
what do u guys think about this article below , from
http//harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_05.php#4

THE TRUTH OF DESTINY

But you will not will unless Allah wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 7630)

As a result of experiments he performed in 1973, Professor Benjamin Libet, a neurophysiologist at the University of California, revealed that all our decisions and choices are set out beforehand, and that consciousness only comes into play half a second after everything has been determined.44 This is interpreted by other neurophysiologists as meaning that we actually live in the past and that our consciousness is like a monitor which shows us everything half a second later.

Therefore, none of the experiences we perceive are in real time, but are delayed by up to half a second from the real events themselves. Libet carried out his research by making use of the fact that brain surgery can be performed without the use of narcosis, in other words while the subject is fully conscious. Libet stimulated the brains of his subjects with small electrical currents, and when they experienced a perception that their hands had been touched the subjects said that they had felt that "touch" almost half a second before. As a result of his measurements, Libet arrived at the following conclusion All perceptions are normally transmitted to the brain. As these are subconsciously evaluated and interpreted, the ego is unaware of anything. The information that appears before our minds, in other words that we can be aware of, is transmitted to the cortex, the seat of consciousness, after a certain delay.45

The conclusion from this may be summarised as follows The decision to move a muscle takes place before that decision reaches the consciousness. There is always a delay between a neurological or perceptual process and our becoming aware of the thought, feeling, perception or movement it represents. To put it another way, we can only be aware of a decision after that decision has been taken.

In Professor Libet's experiments, this delay varies between 350 and 500 milliseconds, although the conclusion that emerges is in no way dependent upon those figures. Because, according to Libet, whatever the length of that delay-it makes no difference whether it is great or small, whether it lasts an hour or a microsecond-our material life is always in the past. This demonstrates that every thought, emotion, perception or movement happens before reaching our consciousness, and that proves that the future is entirely outside our control.46

In other experiments, Professor Libet left the choice of when the subjects would move their fingers up to them. The brains of the subjects were monitored at the moment their fingers moved, and it was observed that the relevant brain cells went into action before the subjects actually took the decision. To put it another way, the command "do!" reaches the individual, and the brain is readied to perform the action; the individual only becomes aware of this half a second later. He or she does not take a decision to act and then performs that action, but rather performs an action predetermined for him or her. Yet, the brain makes an adjustment, removing any recognition that the individual is actually living in the past. For that reason, at the moment we refer to as "now," we are actually living something determined in the past. As already discussed, these studies manifest the fact that everything happens by the will of Allah, as revealed in Surat al-Insan 30.

jonny_k

Salam Saladin,
Well ive heard these arguments of neurology be4. However i cannot agree with this since tht wld mean we do not have a free will 2 decide if everything's predetermined. This wld contradict the Quranic verse where GOD says tht He doesnt wrong anyone but tht ppl wrong themselves. Thus it is difficult 4 me 2 accept this. Neirologists also argue tht everything in the brain operates according 2 'natural laws'. Thus we r nothing but machines n everything tht we do or say is merely by chance n not by our own choice. I recently thght of an experiment which cld prove or disprove this. . I call it 'the ten finger experiment'. In this experiment a person sits behind a glass wall n his brain is scanned by PET(Positron Electron Tomography). Hes then asked 2 raise any one finger from his two hands. The PET has been prepared as 2 allocate a pattern in his brain 4 each finger which he raises. If now the testers sitting outside can tell half a second or so in advance which finger the person behind the glass wall is going 2 raise n it almost always turns out 2 be right only then can we say tht it all happens be4hand. Until now this has never been shown. Ive heard ppl say tht the brain of a sick person was stimulated by electric currents n then he raised a hand n claimed tht he raised it out of his own free will while tht was an outside stimulation. However this is sinmilar 2 for example when an ant or a small insect tickles me on the back n i raise my hand 2 scratch tht area. Id claim tht i did it of my free will when it was the ant tht led me 2 do it. Hence this kind of experiment doesnt prove anything. 'The ten finger experiment' hoever wld not leave any doubts. GOD Bless!

ayman

Peace all,

I think that most of the misconceptions about "free will" result from our narrow perception that time is linear. There is evidence from the great reading that time is not linear but is multi-dimensional. This would resolve the paradox of the future being known while we have free-choice. Please see

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/freechoice.htm

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/straight_path.htm

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

unknownuser

We can also conclude that each person has the freedom to choose the path to take but have no control over what outcome this path will lead to. The God knows all the possible paths, the outcome of the path he/she chooses, and the outcomes of all the other paths that were not chosen.

Hello Ayman,

I have managed to read your first article. I undertand your tree and branches analogy.

We are free to choose the branches.

But does God know which branches WE will choose?

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Can you clarify this...
Thanks.

Regards,

Andya_Primanda

The misconception is that God somehow must know only one outcome of our actions.

I believe that God, All-Knowing as God is, knows every outcome of every branch we would take.

At least that's how I try to reconcile the issue of free will vs determinism.

unknownuser

I believe that God, All-Knowing as God is, knows every outcome of every branch we would take.

I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...

Regards,

jonny_k

I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...

Regards,

Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Regards,

jonny_k

If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?

Khi- Salam. Thts simply coz U DO NOT KNOW UR CHOICE AS YET. If now on the day of judgement GOD just puts u in hell coz He knew ur choices but never let u carry them out in life u cld compalin 'Oh GOD y did u put me in hell when i did nothing wrong'. So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!

But that does not answer my question does it? Why create me if God knew I was "destined" for hell? There is no need for the creation is it? There is no need for me to exist at all and there would be no need to complain at all because I would not have existed...

Regards,

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum all,

I believe that Allah is Just and Merciful and All Knowledgeable. I also believe that we have free will to choose our actions. Now if Allah already knew that some humans would end up in Hell before He created them and they will eternally remain in Hell then that would imply an unmerciful God. So logically only 3 things are possible

He chose not to know the outcome before He created.....this again implies an unmerciful God as explained below
He knows all the possible outcomes but does not know exactly which branch we will choose......this implies a God that is not all knowing.
He knows our outcome and then in the end all those who go to Hell will suffer exactly equal to what their sins were and then the suffering will end......this does not contradict with The God being Just, Merciful, and All Knowing with us still having free will to choose our actions.

Possibility number one is flawed and not supported by any evidence from Al-Quran. If The God chose not to know the outcome before He created us then after He created us He would know what our outcome would be and that some humans would end up in Hell forever and that again makes Him unmerciful unless He terminated the evil ones before they performed their actions.

Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.

The following ayat seem to imply that Allah does not know exactly what we will choose to do

3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to know those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.

but then there is an apparent contradiction with the following ayat which clearly say that Allah knows our present and future

2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
20108 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge.
2129 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
2275 He knows their present and their future. And to God all matters are returned.

One actual example of Him knowing the future is

1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.

One way the above two sets of ayat can be reconciled is that even though He knows our future, meaning all the possible future outcomes, all the actions have not actually happened yet and Allah wants to know with absolute certainty what action we will choose to do. But that still leaves us with some imperfection in Allah's attribute of All Knowledgeable. May be that is how it is, that absolute certain knowledge of random events is impossible and that there are different possible time lines that exist and no one can know which time line will be the actual time line that will be played out until it is actually played out. The Abu-Lahab example is after he had already made his choice. Maybe Allah does not know with absolute certainty what choice we will make but He does know with absolute certainty if we will change our decision once we have made it.

For the third possibility please see Edip Yuksel's enlightening article at the following link

http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm

Here Edip shows the difference between eternal Hell and Hell eternally !! and proves that Hell is not eternal.

In the end only Allah knows !!!

Peace,

Tanveer