WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI, all
I believe that humans are the only creature able to create lies or fictions, something different from the truth.
This ability is double-edged, it enables us to generate new ideas, imagine new ways to solve problems... but on the other hand, it can also generate conjecture, lies and non-truths.
Anyone able to "talk" is potentially able to use this ability either ways.
just some toughts.
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PEACE SOMEONE
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI, all
I believe that humans are the only creature able to create lies or fictions, something different from the truth. This ability is double-edged, it enables us to generate new ideas, imagine new ways to solve problems... but on the other hand, it can also generate conjecture, lies and non-truths.
Anyone able to "talk" is potentially able to use this ability either ways. just some toughts.--I agree completely and nothing that I've read in Al-Quran goes contrary to your thoughts.
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The reason why the homo sapien sapien was able to disobey Allah, is because it was given an id/desires/impulses and the power of choice. The choice was/is to use this id force in accordance with Allah's laws/rules or use this force in opposition to Allah's laws/rules.
This id force , which I is agree is a maliaka, is good and cannot do anything but what it was created to do...serve as the locomotive force within the human being, however, this malaika can be misused. When the homo sapien sapien decides to misuse it, well, the malaika hasn't fallen, rebelled or become evil, it is simply being misused. For example, nuclear energy is a maliaka and is certainly not evil, however, homo sapien sapiens have misused to cause great destruction. The malaika didn't rebel, it was simply following it's created natured and was misused.
Peace,
I don't agree with you on this point.
We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe.
You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun.
But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.When God decided to create the human being, no malaika had ever disobey to God's commands.
Then, God decided to create a living being endowed with free will the human being. He commanded the malaika to prostrate to him, but one of them (Iblis) refused it.
The prostration of the malaika to Adam means that man will be able to harness the forces of the nature. But one of these forces will stand across his road Iblis .
Iblis acts as an inner voice leading people to pride and selfishness.According to me, the biological/psychological forces that move the animals are well as the human being were among the malaika which were commanded to prostrate to Adam.
Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.
But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell.Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.God created a living being endowed with the faculty of abstraction ; that is, able to understand abstract commands.
In the Quran, God always commands man to do what is good.
But man has the power to disobey these commands. And if he disobeys, he will go to hell.Maybe God would have make it simpler by not endowing man with the ability to do evil.
There would have been no need of revealing him his messages and the Quran, no need to create the hell, etc...
But He did it!
Why ? He is the only to know.
So, the only thing that is left to us to do is to accept it.How could this malaika disobey ? Because it was the will of God it did. As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.
You cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.
No, the malaika have no free will ; and, Iblis, when he refused to prostrate to man, had no choice ; he did that because of his inner nature.
And since Iblis disobeyed , he got banned, and he was no longer called a malaika.As an example, you could take , and say the punishment for zina is 100 stripes, and there is no exception. But, in other verses, you will find exceptions, like in and .
OK, but adultery is at the same time zina and fahusha.
So, if the maid-servant you have wed commit zina, her punishment is half the punishment of free women for zina ; that is, flogging with 50 stripes. Do you not agree with this ?I have to go back and look at this part of the ayat. What I wanted to make clear to you was, and I am pleased that you acknowledged it is, not all fahusha is zina, but all zina is fahusha.
OK, but the lesson of that is that you should consider the quran as a whole.
You should not draw a rule and say there is no exception from one verse only.God knows better,
Peace
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I don't agree with you on this point. We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe. You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun. But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.
I'm not certain what you disagree with. I agree the malaika carry out Allah's Will, and, this being the case, they cannot disobey Him. I not only acknowledge that the maliaka are behind the biological forces, the wind and sun, but, the biological forces, the wind and sun, might also be malaika in their own right .
When God decided to create the human being, no malaika had ever disobey to God's commands. Then, God decided to create a living being endowed with free will the human being. He commanded the malaika to prostrate to him, but one of them (Iblis) refused it. The prostration of the malaika to Adam means that man will be able to harness the forces of the nature.
You have yet to provide an explicit/definitive ayat where a maliaka, post man's creation, disobeyed Allah. I maintain that ayat 234 only alludes to Iblis being a disobedient malaika, but still it does not represent an explicit/definitive statement that he was a maliaka, who disobeyed Allah's commmand. This is further highlighted by ayat 1850, where Allah, explicitly, defines him as a Jinn. This remains our stuck point. If you, Idol, and the some of the others, wish to empahtically state that Iblis was of the malaika, then you must produce a definitive/explicit ayat which supports you understanding.
Main Entry EXPLICIT fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity leaving no question as to meaning or intent unambiguous in expression.
Main Entry DEFINITIVE serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation serving to define or specify precisely serving as a perfect example.
For example, 1850, is explicit and definitive, regarding why Iblis diosbeyed Allah's command...he was of the Jinn.
Your position regarding Iblis to be a rebellious malaika is an allusion
Main Entry ALLUDE/ALLUSION an implied or indirect reference especially in literature the act of alluding or hinting at.
PRIEST Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.
But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell. Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.I don't know what translation you used, but it cannot possibly be correct
917-8 And the soul and Him Who made it perfect, Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
Allah, being ALL GOOD, cannot created evil for that would constitute a discrepancy in His Character. It is homo sapien sapiens, who, by their limited-free will, choose to misuse the both internal and external malaika. Allah, has taught the homo s.s to understand what constitutes evil and how to guard against it by having taqwa . The ayat you posted is not a good translation.
God created a living being endowed with the faculty of abstraction ; that is, able to understand abstract commands. In the Quran, God always commands man to do what is good. But man has the power to disobey these commands. And if he disobeys, he will go to hell.
We are in agreement here. Howeve, homo s.s is not a malaika.
Maybe God would have make it simpler by not endowing man with the ability to do evil.
Now you are saying something quite different. You are sying man has the...ability..to do evil. But he was not created as an evil being nor where the malaika. The difference between the malaika and the homo sapien sapien is that, the malaika do not possess limited free will, meaning, they do not have the power to choose between doing right or wrong...they simply do what is right, because that is their created nature.
How could this malaika disobey ? Because it was the will of God it did. As it was the will of God he created a being able to disobey his commands the human being.
PRIESTYou cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.
No, the malaika have no free will ; and, Iblis, when he refused to prostrate to man, had no choice ; he did that because of his inner nature.
And since Iblis disobeyed , he got banned, and he was no longer called a malaika.If Iblis had no choice and was simply created to do evil because that is his created nature, then why does Allah question his actions?
712 He said What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said I am better than he Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
1532 He said O Iblis! what excuse have you that you are not with those who make obeisance?
3875 He said O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
If, as you claim, Iblis had no choice, then why did Allah ask him why he disobeyed? If he were created to do just that, rebel and be evil, then there would be no need for Allah to ask why, it would be a dumb question. The question doesn't appear to be rhetorical, because Iblis gives a response
Main EntryRHETORICAL QUESTION A question asked without expecting an answer but for the sake of emphasis or effect. The expected answer is usually ?yes? or ?no.?; a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something.
OK, but the lesson of that is that you should consider the quran as a whole. You should not draw a rule and say there is no exception from one verse only.
On the contrary, it is you who needs to consider Al-Quran in total. I make it a habit to look for the tashreef and it appears that you do not, hence, your not being able to get past ayat 234, as your reason to believe that Iblis was one of the malaika. When one takes Al-Quran in total, as you suggest is the thing to do, then one knows that Iblis was not of the malaika.
God knows better
And He makes His knowledge known to us in His Quran. All we need to to is go get it; He's hid nothing from us nor has He given us mysteries.
Keep the following ayat in mind
2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to you but We reveal to you the truth and the best explanation (thereof).
Looking forward as always, to your reply.
Peace-
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Peace,
yusjudu and yusallimu
I have found sa-la-ma used in the Qur'aan for mankind who has the gift of free will to surrender. I note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.
Sa-ja-da=submit, submission = (English) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or SUPPLIANT BEHAVIOR; meekness; resignation. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; OBEDIENCE; COMPLIANCE.
Sa-la-ma = surrender= (English) To give up possession of; to yield; to resign; as, TO SURRENDER A RIGHT, PRIVILEGE, OR ADVANTAGE. give up or agree to FOREGO to the power or possession of another, surrender to something, to allow yourself to be controlled or influenced by something, to say officially that you want to stop fighting because you realize that YOU CANNOT WIN.
The obvious outcome of surrender is peace and security. In my humble understanding the two words are not synonyms. Allah?s forces have been made submissive to mankind. For mankind, the inheritors of the Earth, we surrender our free will for the Lord of the Worlds and our submissions belong to Allah alone (721.
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Salaams Gourself , all,
you are depicting the Malaikaat as something other then human i think everything that obeys Allah trees e.t.c
but just one quistion the word in your referance (383, AND 1315)which you said means "All"
does it mean this please check up the following ayah's and may be we will all know what it means
check 28,and 230 as a start. (Here it means SOME )
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68
Salaams Gourself.
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Peace mz,
but just one quistion the word in your referance (383, AND 1315)which you said means "All"
does it mean this please check up the following ayah's and may be we will all know what it means
check 28,and 230 as a start. (Here it means SOME )
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68
I think you are mistaken. This is my reference
Man indeclinable conjunctive pronoun he, she, they, whosoever
Min Propositition used for expressing starting point, part of a whole, origin as, from, of some, amongst?
28 is some - ?min?
383 is whosoever-?man?
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Salaams Gourself,
Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amannabiAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wamahum bimu/mineena
Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
Ma yawaddu allatheena kafaroomin ahli alkitabi wala almushrikeena an yunazzalaAAalaykum min khayrin min rabbikum waAllahu yakhtassubirahmatihi man yashao waAllahu thooalfadli alAAatheemi
It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.
In the first its some=man.
In the second man=whom.WaAllahu khalaqa kulla dabbatinmin ma-in faminhum man yamshee AAala batnihiwaminhum man yamshee AAala rijlayni waminhum man yamsheeAAala arbaAAin yakhluqu Allahu ma yashaoinna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun
And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
Try.
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
But no boubt , may be i am wrong!
Salaams.
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Peace.
And Allah has created every animal from water of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
The "man" in this case is a conjunctive pronoun, eg., he, they. The translator has just not included it. "...and some that (they=man) walk on two legs."
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Salaams Gourself,
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.If ?man?-arabic ,does mean ?all? (as you say) then why does this one ayah say everybody submits and then the same ayah says ?only some of mankind?
I don?t get it!
Salaam Gourself.
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Peace Mz,
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.If ?man?-arabic ,does mean ?all? (as you say) then why does this one ayah say everybody submits and then the same ayah says ?only some of mankind?
I don?t get it!
It's one of those days for you. lol I have them too. S-J-D submit, some men do and some men don't. Note the willingly and unwillingly is not here. Those two words make the other statement all inclusive. Note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.
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Salaams Grourself,someone,
so are you sugesting that the following statement doesn't mean every thing and "man" in this case doesn't mean "all"?as you said earlier?
"Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth-------"
Gods Blessings.
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Peace Mz
Salaams Grourself,someone,
so are you sugesting that the following statement doesn't mean every thing and "man" in this case doesn't mean "all"?as you said earlier?
"Do not you see that Allah they submit to him whoever in the heavens and whoever on the earth-------"
Gods Blessings.
I didn?t say ?man? meant ?all?. Man doesn?t mean all, it means he, she, they, both of them, whosoever. It is left out of the English in some verses. Insert it without changing anything else in the verse and it will be clear. I hope
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Salaams Grourself,
Okay now why isn't the following possible?
Ma = some qd p524
Man = reasonables qd p542See/compare the following two ayah?s to see what are the malaikaat.
1649
And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
God Blesses.
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I don't agree with you on this point. We said the malaika are the forces carrying God's will on the universe. You acknowledged the malaika are behind the wind or the sun. But I would add the malaika are behind the plants and the animals too. They are behind the biological forces that move them in their lives.
I'm not certain what you disagree with. I agree the malaika carry out Allah's Will, and, this being the case, they cannot disobey Him. I not only acknowledge that the maliaka are behind the biological forces, the wind and sun, but, the biological forces, the wind and sun, might also be malaika in their own right .
I fear you did not pay attention to my claim, that is Malaika are behind the biological/psychological forces that move living beings in their lives.
So, when God address the malaika, after he has created Adam, the biological/psychological forces that move Adam are present among the malaika.
And the one that refuse to prostrate (Iblis) is the malaika that move people to be overproud / selfish. Since this force has rebelled, she gets banned, and is no longer called malaika.He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?
He said ?Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.?
He said ?Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected??
He said ?You are granted.?
He said ?For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path.?
?Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative.?
He said ?Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!?Before he rebelled, Iblis was a malaika. So he had to avoid arrogance. When he rebelled and became arrogant, he got banned and disgraced.
For example, 1850, is explicit and definitive, regarding why Iblis diosbeyed Allah's command...he was of the Jinn.
Again, you are not taking heed of what I have explained you before, id est Iblis is not a jinn.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918PRIEST Did Allah ever created anything evil by nature? If so, please identify it. Evil, is the result of deviating from Allah's guidance with the intent to cause harm to self and or others. Homo sapien sapiens was given this power/choice.
But, who can have created Iblis/shaytan, except God ?
And yes, Iblis/shaytan is evil by nature ; Shaytan has no free will, and there is no doubt he will go to hell. Please also reflect on this
And a soul and what He made. So He gave it its evil and good. Successful is the one who betters it. And failing is the one who buries it.I don't know what translation you used, but it cannot possibly be correct
917-8 And the soul and Him Who made it perfect, Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;
I used FM's transaltion.
But could you explain me how Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha becomes Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong ? Where do the words I have underlined in your translation come from ?
Allah, being ALL GOOD, cannot created evil for that would constitute a discrepancy in His Character. It is homo sapien sapiens, who, by their limited-free will, choose to misuse the both internal and external malaika. Allah, has taught the homo s.s to understand what constitutes evil and how to guard against it by having taqwa . The ayat you posted is not a good translation.
You are saying God cannot have created evil. So, who have created Iblis/Shaytan ? Is Iblis/Shaytan self-created ?
Are you sure you are not a Zoroastrian ? or an Manichaeist ?Maybe you should ponder the following verses...
God is the Creator of all things, and He is Guardian over all things.
He said ?O Satan, what prevented you from submitting to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted??
He said ?I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay.?You cannot continue to identify a maliaka as evil, unless, you can prove that Allah gave the maliaka the power of choice and nowhere does Allah say this. You, Idol, and some of the others, make this claim, but cannot provide any definitive ayat to support it. And this is my lament.
God did not give Iblis the choice between good and evil. Iblis has no free will. But God caused/allowed him to rebel, and to become the devil.
He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?
He said ?Descend from it, it is not for you to be arrogant here; depart, for you are disgraced.?
He said ?Grant me respite until the Day they are resurrected??
He said ?You are granted.?
He said ?For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path.?
?Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative.?
He said ?Get out from this, you are despised and banished. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!?If Iblis had no choice and was simply created to do evil because that is his created nature, then why does Allah question his actions?
712 He said What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you? He said I am better than he Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.
1532 He said O Iblis! what excuse have you that you are not with those who make obeisance?
3875 He said O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
If, as you claim, Iblis had no choice, then why did Allah ask him why he disobeyed? If he were created to do just that, rebel and be evil, then there would be no need for Allah to ask why, it would be a dumb question. The question doesn't appear to be rhetorical, because Iblis gives a response
Main EntryRHETORICAL QUESTION A question asked without expecting an answer but for the sake of emphasis or effect. The expected answer is usually ?yes? or ?no.?; a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something.
And on the Day when We gather them together with what they served besides God; then He will Say ?Did you misguide My servants here, or did they stray from the path??
They said ?Glory be to You, it was not for us to take besides You any allies; indeed You gave them and their fathers luxury until they forgot the remembrance, and they were a lost people.?Do you really think God needs to ask the people this question, in order to know what they have done ? I don't, because
He is the Knower of what is inside the chests.
However, God asks them a question, and they answer him.God knows everything, so there is no doubt he knows what Iblis will answer... Iblis is not outside his control.
He said ?My Lord, for that which I have been misled by, I will make the Earth appear beautiful for them, and I will mislead them all.?
?Except for Your servants who are devoted.?
He said ?This shall be a Straight Path to Me.?
?For My servants, you shall have no authority over them, except those who are misled and follow you.?
?And Hell, for all of those, shall be the appointed place.?That's why I agree with Asad when he says
Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God. Satan fulfils a definite function in God's plan he is the eternal tempter who enables man to exercise his God-given freedom of choice between good and evil and, thus, to become a being endowed with moral free will.Peace
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Salaams all,
if you have the time check out the following topic please and send some response
It contains information from a number of peoples -
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3508
it has been changed from before.
Its Good-i would say. Salaams.
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From PRL
Quote
= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folkI remember writing this root and I have a copy of Lanes. It does not mention 'locusts' in the root. I checked it again.
As a side note
I noted something interesting, when it says iblis became of the JNN , it says this means he adopted the disposition of the JNN. Similar to us humans when people compare us to animals "strong as a Lion" "he's like a fox" "they are sheep" etc. it doesn't mean we are or become the animal, we take on its characteristics. Just like iBLiS took on the characteristics of the JNN, i.e. unsound etc. (roots can be checked in PRL)
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Peace be upon you all,
Can I get an update of the position everyon holds regarding jinn? Especially PB. I assume you have done some fleshing out of your position by now. I would like to get back in the debate.
