Rebuttal to article by Wakas: Disproved once and for all salat=prayer
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As-Salaamu Alaikum Wakas,
peace IQO,
It is like "downloading" a webpage. Those who wish to read it can click on the link below
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14091.0;attach=1064Interesting, but I prefer evidence-based discussion, not subjective opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Look forward to your response, however I must point out I am unlikely to reply to any points that are not evidence-based.
Just to make a note, ALL discussion on Al Quran is "opinion". Everything from the dictionaries, lexicons, to what you call "facts" are still just "opinions". The only true "evidence" is Al Quran itself. I hope that makes sense to you. If you care not to disguss "opinion", then what else is left except to quote the entire Arabic Quran?
I think I have made my point for this rebuttal. Your title was/is "Diproved once and for all salat=prayer" For me, for you to continue to promote this falacy is disingenious. "As-Salaat" does mean "The Prayer" in the sense of it being related to the physical function of praising and remembering Allah the way He has described in Al-Quran. Just because you disagree with the way "tradional muslims" have distorted the "Deen" with their use of "hadith", this doesn't give you any right to confuse the minds of those who have come to the conclusion that they are to follow the Quran only as guidance from Allah in written form. This is very destructive and can mislead many from the "Siratul Mustaqeem". I am sure that I don't have to tell you what the Quran says about that.
If you wanted to point out that the root "slw" does not always mean "prayer" when used in Al Quran, that would have been a beneficial article to the readers of Freeminds, etc. It would have taught them that we are not to send "prayers" on the Prophet, etc. But for whatever reason you have gotten it in your mind that Allah does not enjoin us to practice a "ritual prayer". That is your choice and you are welcome to follow it and even promote it if you like. On the other hand, I am obligate to point out that it is false and against Quranic teaching.
I don't see any more need to continue to rebute or refute your article, because regardless of what you wrote in your rebuttal to me, I think it is clear from my arguments and the amount of evidence contained in Al Quran that "As-Salaat" does mean "ritual prayer", in the general sense that we use it. A much better focus would be to continue to strive to understand this process from Al Quran and arrive at some unity that is beneficial to all, insha Allah.
You are again welcome to post your responses to my rebuttal on here and then we can just let the members decide which argument has more weight. Although that may not be necessary because in actuality I believe that there are many more members here who believe that As-Salaat is a "ritual prayer". Allah knows best.
As-Salaamu Alaikum peace
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Peace all,
I think if brother Wakas would change the heading of his article to "disproved once and for all salat = prayer IN SOME OCCURRENCES", it would clarify all the misunderstandings about his article !
Right now, the heading "disproved once and for all salat = prayer" also allows the interpretation that "disproved once and for all salat = prayer IN ALL OCCURRENCES", and that is what is causing all the misunderstanding IMO.
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Peace all,
I think if brother Wakas would change the heading of his article to "disproved once and for all salat = prayer IN SOME OCCURRENCES", it would clarify all the misunderstandings about his article !
Right now, the heading "disproved once and for all salat = prayer" also allows the interpretation that "disproved once and for all salat = prayer IN ALL OCCURRENCES", and that is what is causing all the misunderstanding IMO.
As-Salaamu Alaikum all,
I agree 100% with this statement Tanveer. Although I would make it "all" instead of "some" in both quotes that you gave. That would solve the problem, insha Allah. Because I do NOT believe that all words used in Al Quran from the root "Sa La Wa" denote "prayer"; especially "The Prayer".
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaamun alaika bro IQO,
Thank you for the correction. You are right, it should say "disproved once and for all salat = THE PRAYER in ALL occurrences", "THE PRAYER" here meaning "the regularly timed connection of the muslimeen/mumineen with The God", and not "prayer".
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Salaamun alaika bro IQO,
Thank you for the correction. You are right, it should say "disproved once and for all salat = THE PRAYER in ALL occurrences", "THE PRAYER" here meaning "the regularly timed connection of the muslimeen/mumineen with The God", and not "prayer".
As-Salaamu Alaika Tanveer,
Another thought on these comments.....Also the article would be better to focus on instances where words formed from the root Sa La Wa are used, but not used as "Aqeemus Salaat" or "As-Salaat". Because in these instances, even thought Wakas has tried to prove otherwise from Sura 9 in his article, but in these instances I still believe with confidence that it does mean "The Prayer". But there are other ayats that should be used for the article that would and could easily show that all the words derived from the root do not mean "prayer". Many people on this site always site "prayer" for words derived from the root, either for or against it as proof of its correctness. I don't know of any other word where people take all the forms from the root to mean the same thing, so why this one?
Just some thoughts that I wanted to share. Maybe Wakas may have some interest in revising his article based on any of the comments we have made here, if he has an inclination to agree of course. Allahu Alim.
As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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peace Tanveer, IQO, all,
With regard to the title suggestions, I have taken them under consideration but I do not plan to change the title in the near future.
My article did not separate out the occurrences of "salat", e.g. "aqeemus as-salat", verb "salla" etc. and analyse them. My article was not meant to be comprehensive (as stated in the article). Like I said, I did enough to get the idea out there. I personally do not like puting things on a plate for the reader, i.e. making it very easy for them so they dont have to do any further work. I want the reader to consider what I said, see it as an option whilst they continue their study on "salat".
Also, slw is not special, other words are also analysed like this, sjd, zkw, rk3 etc.
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Greetings & peace to all,
(This may be off-topic, please accept my apology. ))
Peace ImamQuranonly, I express my sincere wish to help about the large font issue. I suggest that you try using large fonts in your browser instead, or use other browsers that you can zoom web-pages as large as you feel comfortable.
By using large fonts in your posts, only your posts are easier to be read to you, but the other's posts are still hard for you to read, right?
Here are some suggestions for some browsers
Microsoft Internet Explorer Click the "View" menubar, scroll down to "Text Size", to the right you can click "Larger" or "Largest" as you like.
Opera (Get it from http//www.opera.com/) Press the eye-glasses icon on the right, next to the google toolbar, then increase the zoom ratio that would pop under it from 100% to 120%... 150%... whatever you like. (I suggest using Opera because you can zoom as much as you like.)
Mozilla Firefox I think brother Wakas already wrote about that somewhere, I'm not using it now so I don't know.
May God Guide
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Salam/Peace Wakas, i know this is a 12 years old discussion but i wonder where is your rebuttal to IQO's own rebuttal?
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*the Arabic words 'al quran' are most closely translated to 'the reading'.
It is a meaningless rendition, "the reading", it needs other words.
reading
/rid/
noun
1.
the action or skill of reading.
"the reading of a will"
synonyms perusal, study, scan, scanning, scrutiny; More
2.
an occasion at which pieces of literature are read to an audience.
"a poetry reading"http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.B%20Qura%20Qaf%20Ra%20alif%20Quraan/1.gif
Importance of the title of a book Perception and meanings conveyed by the title
Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.
http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTitle.htm
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peace NK,
Apologies, I only saw your question just now.
My question is Why in verse 29 of the chapter 9, the punishment of the people of the book is different than Polytheist?. Why people of the book was not asked to "Aqeemo As-slw and aatuz zakat"? Only asked to pay "Jizya"?
It's an interesting question.
I have not studied this in detail but here are my initial thoughts
The verses 91-12 only mention the polytheists so I assume the treaties broken were only by them hence the harsher punishment of exclusion in 928. Furthermore, since they are further from the truth/compatibility of the muslimeen/mumineen they may have been treated differently.
Perhaps there were alliances/camaraderie among believers and people of the book. Fred Donner talks of a confederation of believers forming post-Quran/Muhammad.
If I had to guess why they did not need to "Aqeemo As-slw and aatuz zakat" I would say 1) they possibly did not break a treaty hence they do not need to be explicitly reminded of God's verses and explicitly commanded to bring forth betterment, and 2) God is not as concerned in converting monotheists from people of the book to believers in Quran - as long as they follow their own monotheist faiths. Also there is some overlap in what both groups are asked to do but will have to look into it more. -
slw in christen syriac is called salot meaning to pray and to bend, thus comes the persian word namaz meaning to bend. in chapter 9 it could probably means if they bend [figuratively) and give alms'.
most of the popular religious/non religious terms in quran have a history, look up for them in hebrew and christian bibles and their tergum (translations) in geez, Syriac, Aramic, for instance, zkh is syriac, sadqa is hebrew for alms, charity. same is the meaning for both terms in quran when used in context of giving away or taking something. or fatr when used for meaning opening up (like hebrew pathr), or when used for meaning creator (like geez fatr as creator). also you will find the word sujd in book of daniel, its usage for bowing down, on face on earth. naturally it implies obedience. quran uses it in both ways. when quran is read they don't obey. when quran is read they fall down on their chins/beards-- do not bow down to heavenly objects -- she bow down to sun - another example is sbh meaning to glorify, its hebrew counterpart also means to glorify but in loud voice in prayers. like raad does in quran. now read the command lower your voice in slw. did you see the connection?
its a whole new world explore it waqas.
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Dear Wakas,
I completely agree with your analysis of chapter 9 verse 5. There is no way in this verse the word "slw" means traditional prayer commonly described by scholars. The context and teaching of the book never allow to take this interpretation. However i believe that "slw" also means prayer but not in this context. Your article helped me to solve my life long confusion.
My question is Why in verse 29 of the chapter 9, the punishment of the people of the book is different than Polytheist?. Why people of the book was not asked to "Aqeemo As-slw and aatuz zakat"? Only asked to pay "Jizya"?
Please reply.
NK.
