Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
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Somewhere I had invited attention to see which Baab this verb relates to whereby its meanings would have become explicit.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.183/3.gif
Prefixed conjunction which shows relation of cause/reason and effect/Apodosis clause + Imperative Particle + Verb Imperfect; Third Person; Singular; Masculine; Mood Jussive; Subject pronoun hidden + Suffixed Pronoun Third person; singular; masculine; accusative state, referring to Time Adverb; - Verbal Noun.
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Moon is always changing. "Throughout the full moon" is meaningless proposition.
Except in a figurative manner if you mean full-moon as the day where full-moon appears in the sky.
But "Fast the full-moon" or "Fast the month of Ramadan" are meaningless propositions, in a proper manner or figurative manner (No C.O.D accepted)
Anyway Quran doesn't say that. -
Except in a figurative manner if you mean full-moon as the day where full-moon appears in the sky.
But "Fast the full-moon" or "Fast the month of Ramadan" are meaningless propositions, in a proper manner or figurative manner (No C.O.D accepted)
Anyway Quran doesn't say that.Pl try to understand Post 25
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My english is problematic, I have made some correction. Try now )
Is “Fast the whole month” = Fast 24hoursx30days? Do you take it in that way?
Not right. It’s common sense. Because we understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).Shahr = 1 lunar month and It is a period of time like in average 29-30 days a month. Full-moon is just a stage like crescent…
So where is the problem ?
In your example "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.NO this you can apply for Gregorian months because it's just arbitrary counts.
if you consider shahr=the whole lunar cycle, then it's ALWAYS the whole lunar cycle.
In your example "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.
here you cannot count 4 whole lunar cycle, you will count only 3 whole lunar cycle.
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It's plural, should read 4/3 'whole lunar cycles'
Salam brother,
Again sorry i respect your idea and i am probaby a simple guy but 4 months is equal to a duration.
If it Begins the 14th of january il will not start the 1st of February ! so it is as simple as that.You said "Is “Fast the whole month” = Fast 24hoursx30days? Do you take it in that way?" =>
I don't Believe that the verb "To fast" is the good translation for the verbal form of the word "SIYAM".
I just indicated in my first message that traditionnal view is problematic if you consider that "Ayyaman Ma'doodat" = 3-10 days.
So you have to resolve the problem and re-read my message but "Fast IT (=Full-moon)" is not grammatically correct (intransitive verb) -
Salam Iyyaka,
There is another option to your question that you may not have considered
2183-184 is an independent command from 2185.
So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).
It seems to me that this understanding can be linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).
7142 And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."
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Peace All.
I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?
It says "Ayamm Maadudat" and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?
It says "Ayamm Maadudat" and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.By imaginative flights.
In all the calendars of the world days of individual months are counted ones. The days of months are passive, meaning counted and finalized.
Each month has days that are numbered/counted.
It is adjectival phrase. Second noun is Passive Participle (derived from Passive verb)
It is in Accusative case. Instead of going in imaginative fields we should first determine why is it in accusative case and what is its function in the discourse.
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Peace,
I think terms like "absolutely certain" set the wrong tone for learning or discussing.
The Quran does use 10 and 30 as numbers and describers.
This is about those men who are caused detachment - parting from amongst you people (because of natural-accidental death, incidental-planned murder, or slaughter in the cause/war of Allah the Exalted) in circumstances that they are leaving behind their wives ?
They (respective wives left behind) should wait-restrain their selves, honestly and sincerely, for a period of four lunar months and ten days (till the night start of eleventh lunar day).
Thereat, when they (wives left behind) have elapsed-crossed over the last moment of their prescribed duration, thereby there is no objection upon you people regards what these women decide-act about their selves in accordance with the known norms of the society.
.2234
Remain mindful that Allah the Exalted is aware of all acts which you people keep doing.
.20103
They will be murmuring amongst themselves, "Not you remained in dead state except for ten days".
.20104
Our Majesty know fully what they say murmuring, when says the trailblazer of them, "you remained in dead state but for a day."
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Peace Layth.
I meant Qoran does not say fast 10 days or 30 days. These are assumptions..
Of course Qoran has the numbers 10 and 30 in different other verses.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace All.
I have no idea where people are coming up with 10 days or 30 days from?
It says "Ayamm Maadudat" and there is "Al Shahr" in there. Lunar months vary .
So why can t "Ayam Maadudat" just mean whatever days there are in the month?
And who says "Ayam Maadudat" means days between 7 and 10? Why can t it mean between any counting numbers? Why not 29 or 30?...
What is absolutely certain is that Qoran does not say 10 days or 30 days !!!
God bless.
Peace.Salam,
It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.
But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyman maddtin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.
Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
- Example you will be agree that "ayyman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyman". It is an arabic grammatical rule different from English grammar.
- Another example. When you say to your friend "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.
So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyman maddtin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la
-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)
I give you an example The word CHAHR which means MONTH
To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an
(92) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra
(936) "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve , in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.While in English, translation does not change.
To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyman maddtin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
"Salam Iyyaka,
There is another option to your question that you may not have considered
2183-184 is an independent command from 2185.
So the fast that has been decreed is the 10 days of "Ayaam Madoodat"; however, if anyone is able to "witness the month" then they are to fast an additional 30 days (10+30=40).
It seems to me that this understanding can be linked to the story of Moses (30+10=40) where God breaks the time Moses spent purifying to speak to God into 2 distinct periods (30+10).
7142 And We set a meeting for Moses in thirty nights, and We complemented them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was set at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron "Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters."Salam Layth,
Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (2183-184) and (2185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..
However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.
Peace
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Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say thisbut between 3 and 10. for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say thisbut between 3 and 10. for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
PeaceHe is considering it noun of paucity whereas Maadudat has nothing to do with paucity.
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Salam,
It is classical Arabic grammatical rules ! Quran is came down in arabic..we are agree about this fact.
But before arguing, i would like to readjust some truths concerning my speechs If you look at my previous post you will realize that i never say that shahr = 30 days (i said "Shahr" means a lunar-month) or "ayyman maddtin" is between 7 and 10 but between 3 and 10.
Second we have to study specific rules from a language.
- Example you will be agree that "ayyman" means at least 3 right ? But translators say "days". Or a person who doesn't knows arabic but only english could belive that it begins at 2 days and not 3 ! the number 3 is INCLUDED into the expression "ayyman". It is an arabic grammatical rule different from English grammar.
- Another example. When you say to your friend "I am going on holidays ONE week". Your friend understand that you mean 7 days and not 30 days right? It is a part of his culture, English culture.
So for arabic people who listen for the first time al-quran when Muhammad tell them ""ayyman maddtin" they understood this expression as a very small number, more than 3 and that they count with their fingers (10) and never a big number like 29 or 30.
it still depends on the litteral context as the quran demonstrate us ! (3 or 7 or 10). And this is our best evidence.
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la
-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)
I give you an example The word CHAHR which means MONTH
To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an
(92) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra
(936) "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve , in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.While in English, translation does not change.
To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyman maddtin". But the consensus is about a little number and 29-30 days is too big.
"
-------------------------------------Salam Layth,Thank you for your remark (in green in your post).
You're right there is another option (fifth - see my first post for others options). It looks like option 1 and 2 (separate in time but the second erase the first one) but this time you merge the 2 recommendations.
But for me, as i said to Wakas, 2183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (2183-184) and (2185-187). So these 2 parts are linked. You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2184) doesn't appaears in the second part (2185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who really desires to make a "SIYAM". The first part is a general recommendation and the second part describes the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.But you make an EXCELLENT REMARK quoting the ayat (7142) where God separates 30 to 10 to combine them to give the number 40. We are on the right track to find a solution..God does not do that by accident..
However, i don't believe in SIYAM = fasting. And in english the expression "Fast IT" (as we can find on the website Quranix.com) is grammatically incorrect (intransitive verb - no C.O.D possible). Hope they will change their translation.
Peace
Peace Iyyaka.
Why do you say this
but between 3 and 10. for Ayaam Maadudat? Who defined it as that? On what evidence?
Why not between 3 and 30? or other...?
GOD bless you.
PeacePeace Good logic (so good nickname ).
I respect that you don't want to listen experts on Classical arabic grammar rules.
So it remains Al-Quran and your logic !(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.(21842) maddtin "A few number of days."
=> 3-10 days or 30 ?(2807) maddatan // parrallel with ayat (324)
=> 7 days.(12205) maddatin "And they sold him for a low price, a few dirhams, and they regarded him as insignificant.
=> A Few ? some coins ? 3-10 or 30 coins ?(1187) maddatin "And if We delay for them the retribution until a time-limit set, they will say "What has kept it?" Alas, on the day it comes to them, nothing will turn it away from them, and they will be surrounded by that which they used to mock.
=> A Few/some generations ? 3-10 or 30 generations ?
706 They see it (day of retribution) as far away.
707 And We see it as near.For the ayat (2184) my research (Adding rhetorical analysis) points forward to 10 days. But it is too long to develop proofs here because i need to expose all the rhetorical analysis of surah 2 (the biggest one !).
Peace
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(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.What is the context? Which are days talked about; hurrying what in two days, and delaying what?
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Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Iyyaka.
These contexts are diferent, quote
(22035) maddtin "And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous
=> 3 days.
(3249) maddtin "That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days," and they were arrogant
=> 7 days.
The bottom line is that Ayyam Maadudat could be any number of days in the context of the measure . So 30 days in the context of 365 days is "few days" , why not?
Can you not see that in the above verses one you say is 3 days ,the other is 7 days. i.e they are not exactly the same. So why restrict "few days" to 10 days as a limit? why not 30 or...?
May be you do not really see the point I am making.?
It remains your assumption.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Good logic,
Yes i understand your assumption. Like @Mazhar you think like people the option 3 i mentionned in my first post is correct.
I respect and i understand this way to think because like that there is no interpretation problem between ayats 2184 and 2185, without using abrogation technic. But what it interests me is what God said in the Quran, happy with or not.But i don't understand why you don't understand that this expression means a very few Number (between 3 and 10 so yes it can be flexible that's why God uses this expression like arab from the beginning of the 7th century used it). Please read carefully my posts.
Also, have you read the passage about the plural concerning the word SHAHR ?I try to find solid proofs from quran himself. After everyone is free to accept them or not. God knows better.
So we have 2 scenarios and i have choosen the first one - more logic (i repeat scenarios in the order i mentionned above (in days))First 3 - 7 - 10 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10
Second 3 - 7 - 30 - 7 - 3/10 - 3/10
---- Other proof -------
As i said to@Wakas, 2183-187 is a whole passage with 2 parts (No "wa" or "fa" or "inna" or "aw"...to separate these 2 parts)
- (2183-184) => General recommendation
- (2185-187) => Itemize the SIYAM for the people of the Quran.
BUT these 2 parts are linked.
You will remark that the word ""Redemption / fidya" in (2184) doesn't appears in the second part (2185-187) because the second part details the first part for people who REALLY desire to make a "SIYAM".So, this organization will not be possible if "Ayyaman Maadoudat" means "Numbered/Counted"
NB again, i made others researchs to undertsand 2183-187 (misunderstood like 2240 i already mentionned in another subject)and it confirms the first scenario
Peace and please God "...My Lord, increase my knowledge." (20114)
