Free will? The debate will continue! Discuss at will.
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Peace All.
Here is another view , quoteThe trap that many people fall into is assuming we have one center of consciousness and therefore there is only one choice either conscious or unconscious. A natural animal does not have will power and choice. They only have an inner self and instinct. The secondary or ego is unique to humans.
Is this why we have free will and can override our thoughts i.e exercise our will power?
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Peace All.
Another angle in the free will discussion ,quoteIs everything we do determined by the cause-and-effect chain of genes, environment, and the cells that make up our brain, or can we freely form intentions that influence our actions in the world?
The topic is immensely complicated, and Schurger’s valiant debunking underscores the need for more precise and better-informed questions.
“Philosophers have been debating free will for millennia, and they have been making progress. Or have they?https//www.msn.com/en-gb/news/spotlight/a-famous-argument-against-free-will-has-been-debunked/ar-AAHrLPy?ocid=spartandhp
Just opening this can of worms again. What is new on the subject ?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Peace good logic nice article, but as usual a tempered conclusion on
the subject. I decided to go to my office and see what's going on at
"free-minds". I believe in free will, hence heaven and hell, unless mitigating
factors determine otherwise. My question is "when does mitigating
circumstances negate free will"?peace
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Is everything we do determined by the cause-and-effect chain of genes, environment, and the cells that make up our brain, or can we freely form intentions that influence our actions in the world?
All of the above play factor to the 'decision' that an individual shall make...
But the thing is this, if there is 'something' which have knowledge of everything, any decision that any creature was/is/will make will not be unknowable and/or beyond the control of that 'something'.
Thus 'free will' from the perspective of a creature does exist, yet from the perspective of "the ultimate" it does not exist.
Thus it doesn't make sense if 'the ultimate' become angry because it's creature have a different will than what's being planned. Or 'the ultimate' faced any kind of rebellion...
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Peace All.
Thanks brothers hawk and jafar for your input.
My view
I believe in free will because I can see and feel that I alone must decide how to lead my life As far as I know, no one is putting a gun to my head in my life to force me to go against what I choose.
I am happy to accept my accountability and exercise my free will.
This is personal and independent of everything else .
Since my knowledge is limited, I have decided- my own choice- to accept GOD restraints helping me/interfering with my choices by trying to follow commands and instructions in GOD s message .
I decided to let GOD s message be my guide.To me free will either exist or does not ,it depends on the individual .
I will also not force my view that free will exist for others if they do not see it.GOD s role and attributes - All knowing- are a different matter. GOD does not force our decisions.
Those who have chosen a way of life without GOD are left to their own choices and decisionsGOD bless.
Peace. -
Peace
"when does mitigating circumstances negate free will"?
Does a person in prison have free will?
The free will of a person that is manipulated by individuals or groups or dogma
may be practicing free will to get along with his/her controllers. Does a person
who lives under threats and constraints have free will? Or is free will inherent
in our nature?peace
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Peace brother hawk.
Do you mean like this example about "mitigating circumstances"? Quote
Where the employee is found guilty in any hearing mitigating circumstances can influence the penalty or corrective action decision. The concept of "mitigating circumstances? refers to evidence brought by the employee that may persuade the presiding officer to hand down a lighter penalty than would normally be imposed. For example, the accused …
Or there a list of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will, What are they?
Or does in some cases, one who thinks has free will is unaware of "mitigating circumstances" therefore ….one is not really free?...
Or....I would like to hear more on this issue of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will. I mean apart from mental and physical restraints that affect the proper use of the eyesight, hearing and brain!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic
Peace brother hawk.
Do you mean like this example about "mitigating circumstances"? Quote
Where the employee is found guilty in any hearing mitigating circumstances can influence the penalty or corrective action decision. The concept of "mitigating circumstances? refers to evidence brought by the employee that may persuade the presiding officer to hand down a lighter penalty than would normally be imposed. For example, the accused …
Exactly, except philosophically the authority is God. God knows our situation.
Even though we have free will we may not exercise it properly due to circumstance.
That is why we must depend on God's mercy at all times.Or there a list of "mitigating circumstances" that negate free will, What are they?
As I mentioned in my previous post, the society that a person lives in, religion,
peer pressure, etc., can cause us to be followers of someone else's free will.Or does in some cases, one who thinks has free will is unaware of "mitigating circumstances" therefore ….one is not really free?...
Yes! we can be astray and unaware of it.
peace
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Peace Hawk.
I mostly agree with your take.
I want to add that one can also give up their free will and take up "GOD s will" if they are certain about GOD and GOD s total control over everything.
I can for example say "My free will is to accept GOD s will" . Because this decision must come from the individual deep within i.e Accept Islam to GOD.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace All.
Here is another spanner thrown in here to shake our free will!
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
Or what has this got to do with free will?
There are many things in our lives we can change if we are not satisfied with them. For example, if we are overweight, we can change that. If we hate our job, we can change that. If we are not happy being in a certain relationship, we can change that. If we want to have more friends, we can change that. The choice is ours.
However, it is important to know that there are some things in life that we cannot change no matter how hard we try. . Like what people do, say, feel … Where we come from ,our family, the past…Or can we change many things now,. Much more than our parents and grandparents could?
So, is free will easier nowadays than in the past?
Is free will changing as we are evolving?
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
One thing for sure we cannot change the past.
We need to accept and be at peace with our past and accept it as God's plan.We cannot 'change' the future, because we don't know what the future will be in the first place.
Once we know the 'future' that 'future' definitely has become our 'past'.
Even if we could turn back the time, all of the events will occur in the exact same manner.
We can strive for something but our striving and 'will' will also be in accordance to the plan.Thus what is the best attitude?
The best attitude is to accept whatever that was and be at peace with it.
That's the best gift that you can give to yourselves and your surrounding.
That's definitely easier said than done, but once you achieved it you shall no more experience any anxiety and depression and a step further to learn how to peacefully accept whatever shall happen in your future."Let Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"
-- Matt 610That's the key to be a muslim (the character and not the religion).
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If we had a free will just like that, there wouldn't be entire philosophies dedicated to "liberating" people like buddhism.
I think free will is achieved with hard work and determination and self-control and a life lived by reasonable, thoughtful principles.How do I know I'm exercising my will freely ? If I can live by my own principles. If other things are preventing me from that, and other things will indeed prevent us from that, like emotions will weight on our decision making, biased toward what's pleasurable and beneficial, then my will is under constraints.
small example a friend who treats you very nicely does wrong, but you feel like giving them a pass for fear of angering them or losing their friendship. here your relationship to your friend is pressuring you to not do what you might think is the right thing to do.
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Thank you both jafar and Cerberus.
So is it easier for us in this age to exercise our free will?
I mean humans have gone through many changes like these issues of the past
Owning and enslaving some races by others, oppressing women, lack of education for the majority, no internet...etc.
I know some issues still persist in some societies but overall people are improving in choices and making decisions.
Or is this not true?Could a future time arrive where the majority of people will be more aware of what is required from them to lead a peaceful and happy life?
Or at least learn from our past mishaps!!!
GOD bless you both.
Peace. -
i like topics about free-will and also i am open to new ideas regarding free-will.
let say nothing comes from heart everything comes from mind and mind control our wills and actions as we see and we are also confuse at the same time about the things what already happened to us without our will what make this subject really complex and complicated.
instead of talking about freewill or destiny lets first talk about the source of freewill = BRAIN perhaps we understand more..
BRAIN a tool of gathering/collecting all information what we feel by our five senses. its works like a supercomputer generates HD video clips saved in our memory of brain. @ unimaginable amount of data. = thats the basic element what makes a human being into personality what he/she acquired by using those five senses.. five senses makes memories and memories makes a personality..
by using this BRAIN we are able to defend ourselves from the animal speices who are more in speed/power/flying/swiming compared to us.
we are confused about using our freewill due to a reason we are unable to handle our brain ?
our brain evolved through stages and at this time we experiencing it at its peak due to which we are un-able to
understand/run/control/manage this toolwe hardly understand the 1% of our brain biologically ..
we have no idea from where sleep/dreams come in our brain...
we just start working on how to understand our brain...we are working on lot of things related with the tool BRAIN which is responsible for making us believe FREEWILL exist.
it appears the human animal (loaded with a computer in shape of brain) in which they are unaware how to handle that thing which make them unique in other animals also cause a confusion what they stored in their mind so basically its about the evolution of a species loaded with a gifted brain and freewill concept is a part related with that brain..
unlock the brain and perhaps we will find the original mystery of FREEWILL.
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Peace Imran.
Thank you for your interest and post.
This book is interesting; Mind, brain and free will by Richard Swinburne
Summary, quote
Mind, Brain, and Free Will presents a powerful new case for substance dualism (the idea that humans consist of two parts--body and soul) and for libertarian free will (that humans have some freedom to choose between alternatives, independently of the causes which influence them). Richard Swinburne argues that answers to questions about mind, body, and free will depend crucially on the answers to more general philosophical questions.
He begins by analysing the criteria for one event being the same as another, one substance being the same as another, and a state of affairs being metaphysically possible; and then goes on to analyse the criteria for a belief about these issues being justified.
Pure mental events (including conscious events) are distinct from physical events and interact with them. Swinburne claims that no result from neuroscience or any other science could show that interaction does not take place; and illustrates this claim by showing that recent scientific work (such as Libet's experiments) has no tendency whatever to show that our intentions do not cause brain events.
He goes on to argue for agent causation, and claims that--to speak precisely--it is we, and not our intentions, that cause our brain events. It is metaphysically possible that each of us could acquire a new brain or continue to exist without a brain; and so we are essentially souls.
Brain events and conscious events are so different from each other that it would not be possible to establish a scientific theory which would predict what each of us would do in situations of moral conflict.
Hence given a crucial epistemological principle (the Principle of Credulity) we should believe that things are as they seem to be that we make choices independently of the causes which influence us. According to Swinburne's lucid and ambitious account, it follows that we are morally responsible for our actions.So can we control/influence our brain?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
So can we control/influence our brain?
.WE are actually our brain.
as we know all thoughts comes from brain i.e (-VE & +VE).
5 senses are sending information to brain and that information become our personality.
then that personality REACT the way information is stored in it.. also sometimes we called that APP as (emotions/emoji) that get installed and get updated with time.
Personality take actions according to best of its interest built in as a survival prog in all species through evolutionary stages.
our mind is at its best and fortunately evolved in such a way that we can make good use of it. but also we are not well prepared to handle that complex system which sometimes confuse us making us think we have FREEWILL..
in reality FREEWILL is just a command or program of that supercomputer(brian) that reacts according to the information it contains. without our will.
starts from our childhood.. till the end of life.. we think we do things by choice but in reality we never had choice. the choice forced on us by the brain = computer who programmed according to our society/tradition/conditions in which we get birth.
we just evolved our brain in recent past in the history of many billion years of this planet .. 99% of time that system(brian) was not even there to exist..
people who cant handle their brain sometimes get mental disabilities or some brains are faulty at birth which make a human being totally behave/live like a normal animal. we can observe it in daily life.. when there are others brains who are controlling his/her brain as they know the brain is not at work.. (mental asylums).
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Peace Hawk.
I mostly agree with your take.
I want to add that one can also give up their free will and take up "GOD s will" if they are certain about GOD and GOD s total control over everything.
I can for example say "My free will is to accept GOD s will" . Because this decision must come from the individual deep within i.e Accept Islam to GOD.GOD bless you.
Peace.Sure, did not our parents decide to disobey in the garden?
Did not some members decide to no longer participate here at
free-minds? Decision making is the beauty and tragedy of life.
Free will is a blessing or a curse given to us by our Creator.I want to add that one can also give up their free will and take up "GOD s will" if they are certain about GOD and GOD s total control over everything.
Yes, but wouldn't that be an exercise of free will?
@GL, all, what is your understanding of 3372 with special attention to the word
l-amānata hmmpeace
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Peace hawk.
I think 3372 goes together with 7172.
Basically we took GOD s covenant "Our agreed ultimate choice is to accept only GOD as our Lord".Other creatures heeded and submitted to GOD s will . We decided to accept this chance of living - To exercise our freedom of choice-
Can we keep our agreement with GOD and make the right choice in this life? A big responsibility.
My understanding of 3372 brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Imran.
As far as our brain is concerned, this is a factWhile there is still a lot to learn about the brain, researchers continue to fill in the gaps between fact and fiction.
Is our brain controlling us?
I would say may be the same as our other organs are controlling us- like Stomach ,heart,...etc.
Can we exercise our "will power" and take back the control from them?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
So is it easier for us in this age to exercise our free will?
First; free will in the sense that it's totally free from the environment where the soul is being put on and / or totally free from the ultimate's will a.k.a God will a.k.a God's plan, such 'freedom' doesn't exist.
Yet if it's the freedom to exercise one's wishes at present time, then I believe it depends on the context where the soul is living on.
I mean humans have gone through many changes like these issues of the past
Owning and enslaving some races by others, oppressing women, lack of education for the majority, no internet...etc.
I know some issues still persist in some societies but overall people are improving in choices and making decisions.
Or is this not true?Could a future time arrive where the majority of people will be more aware of what is required from them to lead a peaceful and happy life?
Yes definitely, in overall people are improving in their knowledge and welfare.
Relatively; empathy and rationality has triumphed if we compare the situation to 1400 years ago.
And the trend indicate that it will continue to do so.- Old culture / religion / tradition will evolve / be replaced with something new.
- Mixing between people across religion / ethnicity will become more common.
- The border of nation will become less and less relevant, there will be less nations in the future and so does currency, language and other form of identity.
- Absolute form of government such as Kingdom / Dictatorship will be overthrown and become less and less common.
- Knowledge and understanding about this universe will continue to exponentially improved.
And it's all 100% in accordance to God's plan, where each of you play a role in it. a very tiny winy role among billions of other roles.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"
-- Matt 5 -
Thanks all of you who responded and thanks to all of you who read out of interest.
Here is the summary of my aim in this thread
1- Who are we ? Why are we humans now? Will we understand clearly the purpose here after we die?2- Free will/choice ,is this to do with using our eyes ears and brain to choose our way of life ?
3-Are we accountable one day for our choices?
4017
On that day, every soul will be requited for whatever it had earned. There will be no injustice on that day. God is most efficient in reckoning.
اليَومَ تُجزىٰ كُلُّ نَفسٍ بِما كَسَبَت لا ظُلمَ اليَومَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَريعُ الحِسابِ4018
Warn them about the imminent day, when the hearts will be terrified, and many will be remorseful. The transgressors will have no friend nor an intercessor to be obeyed.
وَأَنذِرهُم يَومَ الـٔازِفَةِ إِذِ القُلوبُ لَدَى الحَناجِرِ كٰظِمينَ ما لِلظّٰلِمينَ مِن حَميمٍ وَلا شَفيعٍ يُطاعُThis reminds me of "I told you so" about accountability
4030
The one who believed said, "O my people, I fear for you the same fate as the previous opponents.
وَقالَ الَّذى ءامَنَ يٰقَومِ إِنّى أَخافُ عَلَيكُم مِثلَ يَومِ الأَحزابِ
4031
"The opponents of Noah, and `Ãd, Thamoud, and others who came after them. God does not wish any injustice for the people.
مِثلَ دَأبِ قَومِ نوحٍ وَعادٍ وَثَمودَ وَالَّذينَ مِن بَعدِهِم وَمَا اللَّهُ يُريدُ ظُلمًا لِلعِبادِ
4032
"O my people, I fear for you the Day of Summoning.
وَيٰقَومِ إِنّى أَخافُ عَلَيكُم يَومَ التَّنادِ
4033
"That is the day when you may wish to turn around and flee. But nothing will protect you then from God. Whomever God sends astray,(Because of his/her own choices) nothing can guide him/her."
يَومَ تُوَلّونَ مُدبِرينَ ما لَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن عاصِمٍ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَما لَهُ مِن هادٍGod s favour as a message came to us to help us choose right.Tragic Human error of "big ego". and the wrong choice, can we listen?.
4035
They argue against God's revelations, without any basis. This is a trait that is most abhorred by God and by those who believe. God thus seals the hearts of every arrogant tyrant.( Those who think they know better and choose what their ego desires!!)
الَّذينَ يُجٰدِلونَ فى ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ بِغَيرِ سُلطٰنٍ أَتىٰهُم كَبُرَ مَقتًا عِندَ اللَّهِ وَعِندَ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا كَذٰلِكَ يَطبَعُ اللَّهُ عَلىٰ كُلِّ قَلبِ مُتَكَبِّرٍ جَبّارٍThe best deal/choice is clear to me from the message
4039
"O my people, this first life is a temporary illusion, while the Hereafter is the eternal abode."
يٰقَومِ إِنَّما هٰذِهِ الحَيوٰةُ الدُّنيا مَتٰعٌ وَإِنَّ الـٔاخِرَةَ هِىَ دارُ القَرارِ
4040
Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - male or female - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.
مَن عَمِلَ سَيِّئَةً فَلا يُجزىٰ إِلّا مِثلَها وَمَن عَمِلَ صٰلِحًا مِن ذَكَرٍ أَو أُنثىٰ وَهُوَ مُؤمِنٌ فَأُولٰئِكَ يَدخُلونَ الجَنَّةَ يُرزَقونَ فيها بِغَيرِ حِسابٍIs this not what we are debating here about the right choices?
4041
"O my people, while I invite you to be saved, you invite me to the hellfire.
وَيٰقَومِ ما لى أَدعوكُم إِلَى النَّجوٰةِ وَتَدعونَنى إِلَى النّارِ
4042
"You invite me to be unappreciative of God, and to set up/ follow choose beside Him idols that I do not recognize. I am inviting you to the Almighty, the Forgiver.
تَدعونَنى لِأَكفُرَ بِاللَّهِ وَأُشرِكَ بِهِ ما لَيسَ لى بِهِ عِلمٌ وَأَنا۠ أَدعوكُم إِلَى العَزيزِ الغَفّٰرِ
4043
"There is no doubt that what you invite me to do has no basis in this world, nor in the Hereafter, that our ultimate return is to God, and that the transgressors have incurred the hellfire.
لا جَرَمَ أَنَّما تَدعونَنى إِلَيهِ لَيسَ لَهُ دَعوَةٌ فِى الدُّنيا وَلا فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ وَأَنَّ مَرَدَّنا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَأَنَّ المُسرِفينَ هُم أَصحٰبُ النّارِ
4044
"Some day you will remember what I am telling you now. I leave the judgment of this matter to God; God is the Seer of all the people."
فَسَتَذكُرونَ ما أَقولُ لَكُم وَأُفَوِّضُ أَمرى إِلَى اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بَصيرٌ بِالعِبادِThank you all. GOD bless you.
Peace